"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." (emphasis added)

Perhaps some of you have read this on the "Under God" board (thanks to zzyzx for bringing it up), but here it is again, in nice bold letters, clearly stating that the US is in no way Christian. The above is Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law on June 10, 1797 after being ratified by the Senate and signed by President John Adams. In short, the Treaty affirms that the United States is a religiously neutral political entity and should not be affiliated with any religion, Christian or otherwise.

Wait three minutes before posting a reply to this.

America gives open arms to whoever desires to come and has many religious influences, whether we like it or not. Maybe 95% of the US is religious in some way with around half of the total population being Christian or affiliated with Christianity. (I don't have the stats for Jews or Muslims, but anyway...) We print out "In God We Trust" on our money (another topic altogether) because so many believe in at least a God in some way.
France prides itself on its secular society and yet...

quote:

France, like most European nations, defines itself in ethnic, cultural and religious terms that can leave non-Caucasian and non-Christian outsiders feeling excluded, however long they have lived there. Foreigners find it much harder to become "French" or "German" than "American." Thus the growing European problem with Muslim residents who are so estranged from the mainstream that they are attracted to extremist ideologies.

(Link)
...And yet makes situations that, one could say, take food from the poor and give it to the rich.
This is not to say that America doesn't have its corruptions, but we at least give equal human rights to each person and give them a chance to get out of their bad situations.

Now, onto other things...

One could easily agree that some, such as Thomas Jefferson, were Deists (i.e., non-Christian) but most of the other Founders were Christian. Jefferson himself was even reported by some to have gone to Christian religious services. Also, there was a Chaplain-type person giving opening prayers to sessions of some meetings before the Bill of Rights was written. (Before the idea of "the wall" was put up.)("The source is... Oh yeah. Let me tell you. It's..." (Scottie is struggling to remember.) "Oh, sorry... I forgot..." ... "Oh that's right! It should be on the back of the CD case.")

So it says "God" on the currency. The dollar bill also has Masonic symbols on the back. Does that mean we're a Masonic nation?

The point I was trying to make was that we should be a secular nation. Infusing religion into our politics may seem nice to the 50% of the population that is blinded by religious zealots, but it is ultimately a very, very big mistake. If this country continues to advocate religion, it will alienate the free-thinkers. You guys in Canada had better get ready for a mass of fed-up American atheists.

not really. Roman Law continued to evolve into the late imperial period, with the continuing election of senators, magistrates, ex, and the court systems, judicial review, laws, and other legal procedures.

The early more republican romans before Ceaser named himself head-honcho for life and a delicous style of salad but to the point we are not a chrisitan nation we have a lot of christians and our goverment is made up of plenty of chrisitans but in no way is our goverment directly influenced by any religion i.e. "The Seperation of Church and State"

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So why does the currency say 'In God We Trust"?

because the revolution was tainted by conservatism.

quote:

Treaty or documentation aside it is a Christian State. Just look at it. This is not even a question...

no it's not. How is it christian? The nation is founded on Roman Law.

Have you oh colonized old man? your country doesn't have the guts to kick the brits out been that way since long before we got our nation off the ground. Just because a coin says "In God We Trust" does not mean we are a christian nation. Do you know which God that statement refers to? It doesn't it just says a God and that God can be any God from Zeus to Buddha it does not have to be the christian God.

This one is making me even sadder. Seen a coin lately?

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
Why shouldn't it be secular? And if not secular, then what? A secular nation does not advocate one religion or another, so the people are free to worship how they please. That is the very essence of the freedom of the United States.

Has anyone looked at a quarter lately? What are we talking about. Secular? My @$$...

quote:

Originally posted by dunadaine:
Exactly. You prove my point yourself. In secularism, they are incompatable, so since I believe there is a supreme being, I am aleinated. I am not secular, yet American. Therefore America should not be considered sucular but neutral. I'm not saying every god, or for that manner any god, should be mentioned in the Pledge. But secularism is its own god, which I do not serve. You say America should not be considered Chrisian (with which I agree), but you say it sould be considered secular. I am not secular so why should my country be considered secular? A prime example of double standards. It should be considered neutral. I will say again, secualar is not neutral.

Stipid questions make my brain sad!

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." (emphasis added)

Perhaps some of you have read this on the "Under God" board (thanks to zzyzx for bringing it up), but here it is again, in nice bold letters, clearly stating that the US is in no way Christian. The above is Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law on June 10, 1797 after being ratified by the Senate and signed by President John Adams. In short, the Treaty affirms that the United States is a religiously neutral political entity and should not be affiliated with any religion, Christian or otherwise.

So why does the currency say 'In God We Trust"?

The USA is a Christian Nation like it or not. Treaty or documentation aside it is a Christian State. Just look at it. This is not even a question...

Because while you're free to practice whatever religion you want under a secular government, under a specific religion in government, nobody can practice a religion but that one.

That's why secular government works.

Exactly. Secularism is its own god, but not mine. Why then should the government be secular when I am not?

quote:

...doomed to failure, especially if the god of the government is not the god of the peoople.

If a nation is considered secular, that by no means forces individuals to be secular as well. It's the government being described in this case. Since we are a nation of completely free people, we can worship however we choose. The government, on the other hand, must be secular. A government that makes decisions based on a god--any god--is doomed to failure, especially if the god of the government is not the god of the people.

Exactly. You prove my point yourself. In secularism, they are incompatable, so since I believe there is a supreme being, I am aleinated. I am not secular, yet American. Therefore America should not be considered sucular but neutral. I'm not saying every god, or for that manner any god, should be mentioned in the Pledge. But secularism is its own god, which I do not serve. You say America should not be considered Chrisian (with which I agree), but you say it sould be considered secular. I am not secular so why should my country be considered secular? A prime example of double standards. It should be considered neutral. I will say again, secualar is not neutral.

quote:

Secularism is liberaly bias, not neutral.

no. Secularism means that the government will not be in religion or vice versa. They are separate and incompatible

What else is there that is neutral but secularism? Do you wish that we add every God in existance to the Pledge of Allegiance and place the rules of every religion in every courthouse in the nation? If no, then secularism is the answer.

It advocates itself, making anyone who does not conform an outsider. It should be considered neutral. Secularism is liberaly bias, not neutral.

Why shouldn't it be secular? And if not secular, then what? A secular nation does not advocate one religion or another, so the people are free to worship how they please. That is the very essence of the freedom of the United States.

I agree, clpo. The US is not a Christian nation, and should not be considered as such. Neither, though should it be considered secular, by these standards, for what say does the secular beliefs have on my beliefs, or what majority or treaty can say what I am or what I am not?

As for the below arguments, I question the logic of both. One says "there was nothing but then somthing", and the other says "there was God before, and He made".

ya... ok

which makes more sense??