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Picture of Aguagon
Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1686
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I think this piece by Sam Harris summarizes the Atheist viewpoint very well. Even though I do not technically consider myself an Atheist (for the record, I consider myself an Agnostic who believes most of today's religions are quite dangerous things), I agree with most of its points. I especially like the common sense questions it poses to the faithful. It's lengthy, but worth reading:
quote:
There Is No God (And You Know It)
by Sam Harris

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings.

The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe -- at this very moment -- that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, “atheism” is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to “never doubt the existence of God” should be obliged to present evidence for his existence -- and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

Consider: the city of New Orleans was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely He heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: these poor people spent their lives in the company of an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm “of biblical proportions” would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. And yet, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that eighty percent of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.

As hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran. Indeed, their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence: their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.


Thoughts? Comments?

I personally don't agree that the lack of tangible proof God exists is evidence He does not exist--you simply can't prove or disprove God's existence. But I think Harris does make a compelling case against the existence of a literal version of the God of our religious texts.

I could especially relate to the "we can't judge God by standards of human morality" line--it would be a wise thing to say if it wasn't almost always used in a hypocritical fashion. When a man cheats death, it's "an act of God," and the faithful see it basically as divine intervention. Yet, when a man dies in a freak accident or a Hurricane Katrina hits, God suddenly acts in mysterious ways we don't understand.


And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
Picture of northstar316
Registered: October 06, 2004
Posts: 3372
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quote:
I personally don't believe in any Supreme Being, but if I did, I'd merely see evolution as a natural process, perhaps guided by this being.


But there is a problem. One cannot prove or disprove the idea of a diety, so therefore, it cannot be thought of as a part of the natural processes by a to-the-letter scientifically oriented person.

I like your new avatar, clpo


O of where dost thou hail, Celephanil, Celephanil? Why dost thou wander in Tengelwar great, why on the sea do you sail?
Picture of harita
Registered: November 14, 2005
Posts: 29
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Through Science God Shows Man The True Splendor of His Creation
(if you qoute that I said it first)

amp m not a blind follower.... one of the minds that think question n reason out...why else would i be here... and one more not so necesary clarification... m a hindu not a christian... just take interest in religion... other religions i mean...
Picture of ampmaster
Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13980
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thank you and try to think this next line through it shall open your mind if you think about it properly

Through Science God Shows Man The True Splendor of His Creation
(if you qoute that I said it first)

also don't just accept whats in the bible as the hard facts thats the spiritual side of things but science and the spirit can go hand in hand if you open your mind


"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Picture of harita
Registered: November 14, 2005
Posts: 29
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amp... did u understand the prevoius message... and what s so non understandable???? the abbreviations used eh??? k dude no more abbr...
Picture of ampmaster
Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13980
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hey harita of fundamenalist newb if you type so that others can read it your point is much more understandable


"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Picture of harita
Registered: November 14, 2005
Posts: 29
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clpo....this is for you... religion n evolution re twocontradictory concpts...th koran nor th hindu scriptures support evolution... they say god crated man from nothin.... note nothin not that they ve evolved...... t means that al beings jus appeared all of a sudden.... even i believe in evolutions,,,,,,m not an atheist niether m i believer.....m confused......th imbalance s al cos of man s tryin to manipulate wat s so beautifully set .... th equilibrium.th atheist's point of view sounds very convincin.... cos he believes god doesnt exist since there s no perceivable proof.... so v believe only in wat v can perceive with our 5 senses.....probably this supreme power everybody s talkin abt s sodivine 5 senses re not enuf to perceive him....
Picture of ampmaster
Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13980
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so DID? I kinda like the idea though.


"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Picture of clpo13
Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6045
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Actually, I've come to disagree with most of ID theory, especially the bit about evolution being guided by some greater being. In my eyes, I see the universe as a great computer program of sorts, with some "Designer" having programmed in the codes for life, evolution, etc. and let the universe run itself while the Designer went off and did other things. ID says that the universe isn't autonomous. I say it is. Call it deistic intelligent design.


The more you know, the less you don't know.
Picture of ampmaster
Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13980
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aren't you ID clpo?


"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Picture of clpo13
Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6045
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How do you see evolution and faith as being contradictory? They aren't. Amp already explained one way to look at it. I personally don't believe in any Supreme Being, but if I did, I'd merely see evolution as a natural process, perhaps guided by this being.


The more you know, the less you don't know.
Picture of ampmaster
Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13980
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Wrong Thread for that dude. But I am Catholic. I belive Jesus Died for our sins on the cross and will one day return to take us to be with his father in the kingdom of heaven. I also belive that evolution is the tool of God when you write appaer you don't just hand it in you edit it and as the world God created changes so must his creations. For example plains grazing animals move north for some reason the climate is colder they need thicker fur to survive so eventually they grow thicker coats this is evolution. The evidence to support both theories and disporve them is every where so why not accept both?

Through Science God shows man the true splendor of his creation.


"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
Picture of amourestsoccer
Registered: October 03, 2004
Posts: 32
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How do those beliving in Supreme Being and evolution reason their beliefs to themselves? Or, in other words, how can one believe in both? My biology teacher believes in evolution, but goes to church. How does this work? Could someone please fill me in?


This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper. - t.s. eliot
Picture of EarthGoddess
Registered: January 15, 2003
Posts: 3714
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Ah crude. I'm such a ditz.
Picture of EarthGoddess
Registered: January 15, 2003
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quote:
(2)As far as Hurricane Katrina goes, not to point any fingers or pass judgement, but New Orleans isn't exactly the "Holy Land", and so whether they "believed" or not, their lifestyles, behaviors and practices completely went against what the god who was supposed the savesave them...so again, what does He owe them?


Oh boy, here we go. Consider this, unintelligent sublime; All of the hurricanes this year were focused around the most religous region in the union, the South. Plus, there were a few tornadoes that tore through the Midwest. Either God is trying to tell you Christians something, or this is all a part of the natural processes of the Earth's atomosphere.

Nature is not all that random. If a hurricane strikes an area that has been struck by hurricanes annually for the last million years, it'll most likely continue for a million years more, whether that area is religous or not.
Picture of dunadaine
Registered: October 31, 2005
Posts: 105
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Sounds like Mr. Harris is a wae bit confused. He serves no god, but demands that my God save people who do not acknowledge Him. For those that died who loved my God,
quote:
Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of His saints.


Does this mean that God gets some kind of sadistic pleasure out of killing people? No, it means that He is happy when He is united with those whom He loves.

Obviously Mr. Harris did not read the Bible, or at least he did not understand it. In the book of Genesis, God gives power over the earth to man. When man sinned he signed over power to Satan. Hence Satan causes the pain in the world, it is his domain.
And for the man who raped the little girl, he is self-damned and will be punished. Why not now? Because on earth he has a second chance(though he probably will not take it) to repent and change his ways, as does the whole world, for God loves everyone, and does not want to send them to hell, but if they do not repent they have forfeited their own life.


From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring, Renewed will be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be King
Picture of clpo13
Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6045
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I won't comment on your near impossible to read writing because I'm not a total spelling and grammar Nazi. But I will expose you to the real (and dreadfully frightening) world.

quote:
no u don cos th religious scriptures don preach evolution


Do you believe in skateboarding? You'd better not, it's not in the scriptures. Simply because the Bible doesn't explicitly say "believe this" doesn't mean you shouldn't. In fact, it even says in the Bible to "believe...that which the evidence proves". Evolution has proof. Thus you are allowed, even encouraged, to believe in it. Besides, it's hard not to, what with all the natural selection (aka micro-evolution) going on in the world around you.

quote:
how s that there s such a perfect balance in nature


I beg to differ. Ever since the industrial revolution occurred in the late 18th century (and CO2 levels in the atmosphere began to rise), the environment has been horribly off-kilter. Has anyone fixed this? No. That's why we're having so many hurricanes this season. We've gotten into Tropical Storm Gamma, and the hurricane sease has technically already ended. But even if you do see nature as being in balance, why does it have to be a supreme being "maintaining the equilibrium", as you say? Could it just be the Earth's natural cycle?

quote:
alternatively if god did not exist how do cows ve horns how do porcupines ve thorns


Why would cows not have horns or porcupines not have quills if there was no God? Horns and quills developed because they allowed the animals to better survive. Cows at one time used their horns to scrape bark off of trees, and to fight one another for superiority. Porcupines use their quills to fend off attackers. Those are traits that allowed the species to propogate itself. And that's evidence of evolution at work.


The more you know, the less you don't know.
Picture of harita
Registered: November 14, 2005
Posts: 29
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k so if u believe in god do u believe in th thoery of evolution ... no u don cos th religious scriptures don preach evolution... alternatively if god did not exist how do cows ve horns how do porcupines ve thorns,,,, who maitains th equlibrium.... how s that there s such a perfect balance in nature....religion n god cannot be held responsible for the misery of the world.... it s men that fight over religion not god... god s one,,,, the core of tal religiuons is one..... mortals fail to understand this n hence th unrest.... evrythin in th world has its good side n bad side.... t depends upon who s usin t
Picture of itelligentsublime
Registered: September 29, 2005
Posts: 17
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quote:
Consider: the city of New Orleans was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely He heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives.


Anyone who has truly studied the Bible~whether
they are religious or not~ would know that simply thinking that a God exists has never been said to be enough to receive some kind of special favor in, warnings against, or precautions to anything. Yes, the Christian God is loving, all- knowing and all-powerful, but (1)what does He owe to a nation that fights everyday to remove Him from everything? Whether you think He should be removed or not isnt the
point, but it is the reason. God is loving and powerful but He is omniscient and, more simply put, not an idiot. He does require certain things from those that are His.
(2)As far as Hurricane Katrina goes, not to point any fingers or pass judgement, but New Orleans isn't exactly the "Holy Land", and so whether they "believed" or not, their lifestyles, behaviors and practices completely went against what the god who was supposed the savesave them...so again, what does He owe them?
Picture of Aguagon
Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1686
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quote:
Originally posted by DrStrangelove:
Atheism and the rejection of revealed religion are totally independent of eachother.

I get what you mean now. Sorry, brain freeze earlier.


And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
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