quote:

Some people also say the hurricane was caused by God. It doesn't make sense to say that God intervened to help people get through a mess he caused. But even if you deny that God caused it (as most reasonable people do), why doesn't God intervene in other situations? That's the point I was trying to make. Why does God only help some of the time? Aren't we supposed to learn from our hardships? If that's the case, then why should God help at all? Too many questions and not enough good answers.

You are looking at it one-sided. The reason why you don't understand why God would allow some things and not others is because he doesn't just allow bad things and intervene....and he doesn't just intervene to stop bad things and then do something different. He doesn't do one or the other. God allows to happen whatever needs to happen in order for the world to continue to revolve...or maybe not necessarily what needs to happen but what can be allowed to happen. The point is, things happen because of whatever is in God's plan whether those things are good or bad. But we will not know why this happened and this didn't but this didn't and this did until we get to Heaven...and even then we may not know why unless the information is needed to put our souls at peace. The point is not to question God's plan but to accept it regardless of human pain, emotion, hardship, etc. because that stuff is not going to matter in everlasting life.

quote:

It only seems impossible to me because I know people who have been through that. They lost their faith because they couldn't possibly believe in a God who would abandon them. Of course, neither of us can fully understand that, having never been in such a situation. But please, stop assuming the world is such a nice place. It isn't always.

I am not assuming the world is a nice place. When did I ever? I am simply saying that there are people who have experienced the extreme unkindness the world can give and yet still retain their faith in God.

Of course there are those who lose it. Those are weak. "a God that abandoned" - these are words of people with a weak faith in God to begin with. They have nowhere else to turn, nothing to look at so they blame God. Which is bad. I mean, even though He allowed unpleasant things to happen, the receivers of that hardship should realize (after the initial shock, grief, etc) that He allowed it to happen for a reason that is unknown to them and may remain as such until death. God does not provide us with anything we can't handle...but sometimes our free will allows us not to handle it. I hate to be blunt but it is as simple as that.

Or, if I step away from my religion momentarily, I could even say that perhaps they are not meant to believe in God but in something else, something different (remember my ideas about Heaven? if not, I'll refresh you).

quote:

Worth, will you listen to yourself? You say that bad stuff happens and God could have caused it, yet you can't believe that God would act through Trisscar's friend? If God caused her friend to do whatever it was she did, then it's God's fault. Clear and simple.

Here's why this situation is different. God handed him his hardships for some unknown reason. God would never give this person more than he could handle. But humans have free will and this individual gave up in a moment of total depression (I'm assuming...I mean that is usually the cause of suicide so if I am wrong then I apologize Trisscar). This the actual suicide of the friend was not God's fault because this friend could have turned the other way, could have refrained from taking that action. God's plan can fluctuate. This is going to be real simple but I imagine this is what God was saying, "Well, I know this person can handle this but I do not know whether he will choose to handle it." Then he commits suicide. "Unfortunately, this person did not choose to handle it but I knew that, if he decided to take that action, my plan would not be tampered with so all is still well."

I don't want to simplify it that much but I don't know how else to explain the way I believe God works.

quote:

People like you live in your stupid little sheltered lives.

You mean people like me who think that even though your friend had so much going against him, he still could have made it? I don't want to be rude about it but that is just the way I feel. I feel like, even with that much (and of course that is a whole lot to deal with) he could've have still stuck it through. I don't know him personally. I don't know the details but I just feel like, no matter what is going on, no matter how much it is, it is always possible to stick it out, to make it. God does not give people more than they can handle. He gave this friend of yours an awful lot but I feel as if this friend could have made it and it is very tragic that he didn't.

This is not a judgment as you call it. This is not me speaking from a sheltered life. While I do not live in a home anywhere near it, I have family and friends who have and I know of what you speak. People who have a strong faith in God (versus a weak one...I think that's what orange mean when she said weak...a weak faith in God) trust in Him, believe in Him, and turn to Him when they feel as if they have too much on their plate. You say your friend had no where to turn to but he had God. Always.

quote:

And is that so bad? It's possible that the aid was God's intervention, whether you believe that or not.

Some people also say the hurricane was caused by God. It doesn't make sense to say that God intervened to help people get through a mess he caused. But even if you deny that God caused it (as most reasonable people do), why doesn't God intervene in other situations? That's the point I was trying to make. Why does God only help some of the time? Aren't we supposed to learn from our hardships? If that's the case, then why should God help at all? Too many questions and not enough good answers.

quote:

I know that kind of faith seems impossible to you but I have heard people speak who came from terrible hardship and retained their faith.

It only seems impossible to me because I know people who have been through that. They lost their faith because they couldn't possibly believe in a God who would abandon them. Of course, neither of us can fully understand that, having never been in such a situation. But please, stop assuming the world is such a nice place. It isn't always.

quote:

Those of you who did lose faith always have a way back. If you can look back and see that you lost faith and that you're persective on God did change then you know where things went wrong. You always have a way back to God, always.

This presumes that I want to find a way back. I don't. My life has been much better since I decided I'd go at it on my own.

quote:

How in the world is your friend's action God's fault???

Worth, will you listen to yourself? You say that bad stuff happens and God could have caused it, yet you can't believe that God would act through Trisscar's friend? If God caused her friend to do whatever it was she did, then it's God's fault. Clear and simple.

quote:

maybe yes certain events can change a person's points of view, but you should at least get to the truth.

But what is the truth? Can any of us truly say we know what the truth is?

I agree with Trisscar on this one. You have no right to say that. it was completely inappropriate. You can just sallously pass judegement on people like that. It's not for you to decide how strong someone is because of what they've done.

quote:

Suicide is just slapping God in the face. maybe there a people who are just weak. yeah,weak. those who cant and don't want challenges and tired of life. well, that's their choices. and in choices, you must bear the consequences.

Shut up about the suicide thing. You have no idea what you're talking about and its pissing me off. Unless you've lived a life you have no basis of judgement on who they were. Obviously you have not lived a hard life and I'm happy for you, but fuck. Don't judge people you have no idea the circumstances underwhich he lived - you have no idea how hard it can be to wake up every morning knowing you you're going to get beat or abused and knowing there is no way to get away from it. You don't know what its like to have everything stacked against you - living as a minortiy being treated like shit. Having your life threatened, having no hope for a future because its impossible to get a proper education because you have to take care of a younger sibling because you're parent are unable to because they're drunk 24 7. You don't know what its like to have parents who don't give a shit about you, having no one in your life that you can talk to because there are so many other people out there who have to deal with the same shit every day that they don't want to deal with another "troubled kid". You don't know what its like to know your sister was raped or what its like to live in constant fear. People like you live in your stupid little sheltered lives. Its a tragic thing when someone give up hope and kills themself. Your post treats them like they're nothing. You don't get it you have no idea. So don't judge.

in a world where we live in different trials and afflictions, this is where faith and tested. to have faith, you must believe and in order to believe understand.
understanding God is not easy. Suicide is just slapping God in the face. maybe there a people who are just weak. yeah,weak. those who cant and don't want challenges and tired of life. well, that's their choices. and in choices, you must bear the consequences. too bad, when people who at first believe in God or do belong in a religious group just back slided especially when they have the truth, they just listen to the whispers of other people.
maybe yes certain events can change a person's points of view, but you should at least get to the truth.
maybe its a curse made by God to us.. the curse of sinning, and when you sin, God gets angry. you don't like him when He is angry. He just makes mountains shake and pour hard rain.
God is all powerful. Its hard to understand when emotion gets in the way. when negativity sets in your heart first.

Faith means you don't know

Um - I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say, I'm sorry that my post was not more clear.

What I meant is that people do lose faith - and yeah I guess you can always go back if you want - but events effect your opinion on things.

I'm not saying that God's nature changed when my friend did that, what I'm saying is that my opinion of God's nature changed. Whether this is logical or not, emotions get in the way.

And yes ultametly it was my friend's decision to do it. But in my opinon his life situation was set up for him to fall - His life from the beggining was a mess with no fault of his own.

Hope that clears up what I was trying to say.

Honestly I know what you're trying to say. And yes beleiving in Christ is an open or shut case, either you do or you don't. But there are a lot of other aspects of faith that aren't so simple.

Anyway... I'm hoping I'm not talking myself in circles. I think my problem here is that this is an emotional thing, not nessarily a logical thing. - and I should probably stop arguing because since its not logical I can't really explain it.

quote:

Originally posted by Trisscar:
maybe I should have thanked him for my friend getting to the point where he felt that slitting his neck was a better choice than living. I don't know.

How in the world is your friend's action God's fault???

quote:

But really are you even stopping and thinking?

Yes, I have done an awful lot of thinking on my faith and issues dealing with it. How can you think otherwise?

quote:

Think about it for a second. Hurray for people who thank God for the death of their child, I must say that must take a lot of faith.

You simplify it so much. A person's child died. They don't say, "Thank you god for letting my child die." They say, "Thank you God for all of the other blessings in my life. For allowing me to live and fulfill whatever plan you have. Though I cannot see the reason behind my child's death, I know that it is in your plan and I just pray that you will help me through my grief."

quote:

But what about the rest of us who don't have that faith - are we wrong for losing faith in a God that lets horrible things happen?

You are not wrong, by any means. Especially if you're not Christian.

But if you are Christian then you just need to strengthen your faith more. You need to work on looking at the other side of even the most terrible of events.

quote:

Have you even concidered that events shape your view on things and that maybe people who have lost faith have experienced or seen things that have changed our view on how God is?

Uh...yeah. Duh. I figured that's how people lose faith in the first place.

quote:

as easy as being black and white in this circumstance, it really has a lot to do with the individual.

No. It has to do with your belief in God. Your faith in God. It has to do with God.

Trisscar,
what you're saying in response doesn't make sense. it's not even a good response.
Those of you who did lose faith always have a way back. If you can look back and see that you lost faith and that you're persective on God did change then you know where things went wrong. You always have a way back to God, always.
I think you're wrong in thinking God's character changed when your friend killed himself. you're friends death isn't on God's hands, it was you're friends choice, you're friend who listen to the lies he was told and ultimately you're friends fault.
You can't blame God for your friends decision. that's like saying it's the cafeteria lady's fault that you chose the food you were allergic to despite the warning.

In all reality it is pretty black and white. You choose to follow Jesus or not. If you choose to follow then you choose to believe the bible because that's what he did. And thus you would also believe that God is caring and God does have a plan, it's your choice to follow it or not. Then when hardship comes there is faith that God will take care of you through it.

Okay. You know what, maybe I did take the easy way out and blame God for all the shit that has happened to me and people I care about and maybe I should have thanked him for my friend getting to the point where he felt that slitting his neck was a better choice than living. I don't know.

But really are you even stopping and thinking? Think about it for a second. Hurray for people who thank God for the death of their child, I must say that must take a lot of faith. But what about the rest of us who don't have that faith - are we wrong for losing faith in a God that lets horrible things happen?

Have you even concidered that events shape your view on things and that maybe people who have lost faith have experienced or seen things that have changed our view on how God is? Its not as easy as being black and white in this circumstance, it really has a lot to do with the individual.

quote:

the people who were displaced by Katrina simply attributed the aid to God's intervention, which is why they kept their faith.

And is that so bad? It's possible that the aid was God's intervention, whether you believe that or not.

quote:

What of the people who get no help? There are many people who find themselves out of a home, out of a job, with absolutely nothing. Yet these people often don't receive any help. Try as they might, they're stuck being homeless and jobless. Life gave them lemons, but they can't make any lemonade. I doubt many of these people find time to thank God for their misfortunes.

Some people in those situations have more faith than those sitting in a warm home with food in front of them every night. You can "doubt many of those people find time to thank God for thier misfortunes" but that doesn't mean they don't. Yes, misfortunes, especially as life-altering as those, make it more difficult to praise God, to thank God. But that is simply part of the challenge of being a Christian. As a Christian, one must accept everything that happens to them in their life that is beyond their control and look at it in the most positive light as possible.

If I were in a situation such as one you describe I hope that I would think to myself, "Well, this is awful, I wish none of this had happened to me, but I am still alive (and praise God for that!) so there must be a reason why I am still living. I must try to make the best of it. I know this is God testing me, giving me hardship for some purpose and that I will eventually know what that is whether it is in this life or the life I live in Heaven."

I know that kind of faith seems impossible to you but I have heard people speak who came from terrible hardship and retained their faith. I have read "testimonies" (I hate that word but still...) that amazed me. I mean, it is hard to fathom but Christians are taught that we will be tested throughout life but we will not be tested beyond our capabilities and if we have faith and strength in God then we will be able to get through whatever He sets before us.

quote:

It's easy to keep the faith when you still have a way to make a living and survive.

Of course it is. But life isn't supposed to be easy and God didn't make it that way.

quote:

Think about some of the Hurricane Katrina victims...many of them still retained their faith despite all of their hardship.

But do you know why? Because of the incredible amount of support and aid they received from others around the nation. Being, on average, more spiritual than the rest of the nation, the people who were displaced by Katrina simply attributed the aid to God's intervention, which is why they kept their faith.

But not everyone is so lucky. Sure, these people lost their homes, possessions, and, in some cases, loved ones. But the whole country helped them get back on their feet. What of the people who get no help? There are many people who find themselves out of a home, out of a job, with absolutely nothing. Yet these people often don't receive any help. Try as they might, they're stuck being homeless and jobless. Life gave them lemons, but they can't make any lemonade. I doubt many of these people find time to thank God for their misfortunes.

Even when I was still rather active in my church, I rarely heard anything about people suffering through extreme hardships and still remaining faithful. I'm not talking death of a child or loss of limb or anything here. Those are relatively minor hardships. Compare those to losing your job or your home. Way worse. It's easy to keep the faith when you still have a way to make a living and survive.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
As far as I'm concerned, the story of Job was just that: a story. I have yet to hear of any actual people in recent times suffer through so much and still keep their faith.

Really? Perhaps it is because you are not a part of some sort of Christian fellowship any longer? I only ask because I have met many people and have heard of many people who have suffered a great deal yet retain their faith in God. Think about some of the Hurricane Katrina victims...many of them still retained their faith despite all of their hardship.

quote:

People of faith tend to rely on God to solve their problems, but it's not often that he actually does. I find that life becomes much nicer when I'm the one fixing my problems instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

Actually, Christians are always taught that, while they are welcome to ask God to help them in their problems, He may not respond in the way they expect or in a way they may be able to physically see. Also, it's not that we expect God to fix our problems for us but to aide us in our time of need...lessen the burden in some way or sometimes even prayer is the way that we lessen our burden. I certainly don't sit around "waiting for someone else to do it."

As far as I'm concerned, the story of Job was just that: a story. I have yet to hear of any actual people in recent times suffer through so much and still keep their faith. People of faith tend to rely on God to solve their problems, but it's not often that he actually does. I find that life becomes much nicer when I'm the one fixing my problems instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

Also, you say that men need God. Why is this? What reason do you have for thinking this? I am much better off now than I ever was when I believed. Of course, this is not to say that I don't believe now. I'm undecided, but I depend more on myself than on any god.

faith implies understanding the will of God. The world is a bull sh*t for me. its neither heaven nor hell but its so full of evil wicked people. i have a daughter what ever her fate may be.. fine by me. i will not be happy nor sad about it. but trusting God will make things a lil easier. if my daughter or my loved one was a victim of the "cruelty" of man because of God, maybe it was really his or her time.
death is death. no matter how he died, he is died. and justice will take place in the future.. a more appropriate verdict.
did you think about Job? he lost everything. But his faith stood by him, and trust GOd and when after he was tried and succeeded, he gained more more than wat he lost
no body will ever understand God, at least those who don't wanna believe God or just expecting answers that would sound as answers. God doesnt need any of us, but man need God. the apostles still died and suffered while they are serving God, yet its part of being a Christian. if they were already believers of God, why do you think God let them die? is God really that cruel? or maybe there's a more deep reason that he has that man who is a non-believer will ever understand.

It must just be the way I think, but it sounded really odd in my ears to hear those Free Methodists saying "Thank you God for all the sickness we've been experiencing..." I know they assume it's all part of the plan, but I don't start appreciating hardships (if I do at all) until after something good has come of it. If nothing good comes of misfortune, then, well, that's just life. But that's just my realism (or cynicism, if you prefer) talking.

Alright.

How can you give thanks to God for horrible things. For example, lets say your only child was hit by car and died, or if they were kidnapped and raped, tortured and killed. How can you thank God for that? How is it possible to say God, "Thankyou for the loss of my child, I understand that it's in your will that this was to happen."

I can't thank God for things that have happened in my life, I can say "Hey God, thanks for throwing me into this mess, you're really great!" - It doesn't work that way, I have way too many questions and things that need to be answered about why things happen.

quote:

misfortunes can be thanked in a certain way. certain misfortunes are wakeup calls reminding us that we are man. nothing to be proud of in this world. some are just so proud that they're pretty, or rich, or wise. its God who made them look that way, or God made you a lil bit wiser than others. But can you yourself decide what gender you wanna come out that womb? or you want to be pretty. some have deformities. some have down syndrome. some are even blind or deaf. i think these kinds of people are even more special to God than normal people. The Blind don't get to see the awful sorry life, wont be able to watch porn hehe.. the deaf can't hear the obscenities. and the down syndrome just got his innocence preserved.
Disasters like twisters, hurricanes will always be wake up call for all of us from God.

This is one of the least coherent posts that I have ever read in my life. How do disasters such as hurricanes tell us to wake up to Gods teaching? Surely the kind of disasters that act as a wake up call are something that you can learn a lesson from, like an influential person dying or some other tragic event.