yes i know its a wierd religion but its true im one.

quote:

It is not something from a fantasy novel all of the names that I listed actually existed and practiced in the dark ages of europe mainly around the celtic regions.

Are you at least passingly familiar with the history of early middle ages? Let me just clarify some problems with how your list of the "majority" of the non-Abrahamic religions tends to the confused.

quote:

druids, wiccans, witches, warlocks, necromancers, etc. plus hindus, some islamic's and celtic warriors.

1. The druids, historically connected with pre-Roman Britain, are a tradition of paganism, but also a tradition that was absorbed into Christianity. Welsh Christians often see themselves as part of a long line of Bardic Christians, going right back to the conversion of the Welsh to Christianity. Not to mention that most of the historical druids were slaughtered on the Isle of Angelsey by the Romans when they conquered Wales.

2. Wicca is a modern invention. It is a religion, and it can trace some of its thought back to books of magic in the past (mainly in the Judeo-Christian tradition, like the Sword of Solomon) but it is not an ancient, not even a mildly old religion.

3. 'Witches, warlocks, necromancers'. I just don't know what to do with this set. There isn't a religion known as 'witchism', most of the 'witches' that were burnt at the stake were entirely innocent (the rest were malicious, but not magical obviously) and there were no where near as many as people think. Certainly not enough to qualify as a religion, or even a minor cult. Warlock is normally the male version of a witch. Necromancers do not exist. I'm almost positive that there was no religious movement, no sect, no cult in medieval europe that considered themselves able to raise the dead (other than within the Christian tradition of couse). This is simply wrong.

4. 'Hindus' were defintely not in early medieval europe, or at least in the way that you seem to be suggesting that they were. Plus the fact that Hinduism predates Judaism by about a thousand years.

5. 'celtic warriors' is not even gesture towards naming a religious category. Amd the Celts were long gone by the early medieval period, their last remnants having been driven into the north of Scotland and Ireland by the Romans and then converted by St Augustine and St Patrick respectively.

6. Perhaps the crowning glory of this set (which is why I've reserved it for last) is the 'islamics'. Firstly, they are called muslims, not islamics. Secondly, Islam is an abrahamic religion - they trace thier connection to Abraham through Ishmael, just as Judeo-Christianity does through Isaac. Thirdly, the Islamic Golden age occured between the 7th and 13th centuries, and this resulted in thier empire covering approximately the same amout of space as Christendom, with possilby an almost equal number of adherents.

quote:

i was being entirly serious all of the dating tools have been disproven before.

Would you care to explain how dendrochronology has been disproven? Dendrochonology is nice, simple and reliable, and that goes back to about 11850 BC, so about five thousand years older than your postulated date for the creation of the earth. Care to explain how trees were growing before not only they, but the planet, water and light had been created?

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No one takes penicillin any more

I leave this to Kharybdis. Except to perhaps add that I was using penicillin as a synecdoche for all anti-biotics, and hence also for all of modern medicine.

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everyone knows the world is round

That was kind of my point. Science has revealed that the earth is round and not flat, in the same way that it has revealed the universe to be exceptionally old, and certainly much older than six thousand years BC. Much of the same science goes into proving the earth is round as goes into proving that the universe is old. I'm almost certain that it is impossible to hold one belief without the other.

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The fact tht you are saying possibly leaves room for anyone to doubt and really it sound like ur doubting urself.

When I introduced 'possibly' as a caveat to 'books', I was trying to disavow absolute knowledge on a subject that is not my field and in which I am not very well-versed. However, a search on Wikipedia, reveals that the oldest figurine comes from about 33,000 BCE and the oldest surviving religious text comes from 2493 BCE (the Pyramid Texts). By contrast, 1250 BCE is the proposed compositional date for the Torah. And what I meant by time left hanging over was that if the Torah was only begun in 1250 BCE (or thereabout), then that leaves several thousand years left unnaccounted for in your account of creation.



I was only doubting myself to the extent that my ignorance compels me to, which is I think is a good a place as any to draw the line.

Oh, Khary you make my day so happy.

quote:

It is not something from a fantasy novel all of the names that I listed actually existed and practiced in the dark ages of europe mainly around the celtic regions.

Ok now that I'm done laughing at you I'll explain:

Wicca, Druidism, Hindu and Islam are all religions, yes. Necromancy, warlocks and celtic warriors are not religions and blahblahblah... You know what Romashu, just go away. If you can't even understand how we know the age of the Earth (which is 4.5 Billion years old by the way), any conversation with you will be like arguing with a chair. But at least chairs are smart enough to know their place in the world.

do you really believe that nobody uses penicillin any more

is that honestly something you think

quote:

This is not so much a definition of paganism as the dramatis personae of a fantasy novel.

Pagan actually derives from latin, where it meant 'rustic' or 'country dweller' or some such. But the word pagan is actually used in various ways. It can be
1) A reference to the 'pagan religions' in a strictly historical sense, i.e. Greece, Rome, Maya, Inca and so on (basically extinct polytheisms)
2) A believer in any non-abrahamic religion, i.e. everyone who isn't a Christian, Jew or Muslim (the people of the book).
3) A generic label for a wide group of religions, generally known as 'neo-pagans', a group which includes denominations as various as Wiccans, LaVeyan satanists, Druids and so on.

However, I think in this discussion that EG's definition is probably what most people are talking about, i.e. the narrow historical religious usage, including the precursors of the Abrahamic religions.

It is not something from a fantasy novel all of the names that I listed actually existed and practiced in the dark ages of europe mainly around the celtic regions.

quote:

Is this a serious response or a joke? I mean, virtually the entirety of scientific evidence is against this hypothesis. If you believe this, you might as well stop taking penicillin and think that the world is flat, not to mention stripping NASA of all its funding.

Not only that, but there are loads of human cultural artefacts, books (possibly), that are older than the earth that you're postulating. And the Pentateuch only arose (possibly) around the 10th century BC. Which leaves a great deal of time left hanging around.

i was being entirly serious all of the dating tools have been disproven before. No one takes penicillin any more everyone knows the world is round etc. The fact tht you are saying possibly leaves room for anyone to doubt and really it sound like ur doubting urself.

quote:

This is why we can never have nice things.

Also, celtic warriors, warlocks and nercomancers are not religious practitioners, they are RPG classes....

? and as i said before in this post they actually exsisted and practiced as a religion and faith in the dark ages but not in the way that you are thinking about them now.

i dont like you eg, but your post made me laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by Romashu:

quote:

Suggestion: Maybe we should define paganism before throwing facts around on it. Paganism has a lot of definitions depending on what you are talking about. Sometimes it means all non-Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judiaism, and Islam) and sometimes it refers to Neo-paganism (like Wicca), historical polytheism, and folk religions of indigenous people.
The vagueness can make discussion pretty confusing, especially when dates get involved.

What pagans are are not only non-abrahamic religions as you so plainly put it a majority of them were druids, wiccans, witches, warlocks, necromancers, etc. plus hindus, some islamic's and celtic warriors. mainly based on what they practiced and a few are based on the gods they worshipped.

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No. Most of us know that paganism originated 30,000+ years ago. Get with the fucking program, romashu.

are you really that iggnorant to actually believe that the earth is that old? By just using the genealogies in the book of genesis ive figured out that the earth is actually much much much younger about 6159 years lod give or take a few years.

ROFLMFAO. ROLFCOPTER. LOLERCOASTER. LOLLOCAUST. LAWL.


This is why we can never have nice things.

Also, celtic warriors, warlocks and nercomancers are not religious practitioners, they are RPG classes....

quote:

What pagans are are not only non-abrahamic religions as you so plainly put it a majority of them were druids, wiccans, witches, warlocks, necromancers, etc. plus hindus, some islamic's and celtic warriors. mainly based on what they practiced and a few are based on the gods they worshipped.

This is not so much a definition of paganism as the dramatis personae of a fantasy novel.

Pagan actually derives from latin, where it meant 'rustic' or 'country dweller' or some such. But the word pagan is actually used in various ways. It can be
1) A reference to the 'pagan religions' in a strictly historical sense, i.e. Greece, Rome, Maya, Inca and so on (basically extinct polytheisms)
2) A believer in any non-abrahamic religion, i.e. everyone who isn't a Christian, Jew or Muslim (the people of the book).
3) A generic label for a wide group of religions, generally known as 'neo-pagans', a group which includes denominations as various as Wiccans, LaVeyan satanists, Druids and so on.

However, I think in this discussion that EG's definition is probably what most people are talking about, i.e. the narrow historical religious usage, including the precursors of the Abrahamic religions.

quote:

By just using the genealogies in the book of genesis ive figured out that the earth is actually much much much younger about 6159 years lod give or take a few years.

Is this a serious response or a joke? I mean, virtually the entirety of scientific evidence is against this hypothesis. If you believe this, you might as well stop taking penicillin and think that the world is flat, not to mention stripping NASA of all its funding.

Not only that, but there are loads of human cultural artefacts, books (possibly), that are older than the earth that you're postulating. And the Pentateuch only arose (possibly) around the 10th century BC. Which leaves a great deal of time left hanging around.

quote:

But accorrding to what u say something that someone calls a religion just has to be accpeted by the US gov. and the US military to become a true religion?

just like mormons.

paganism= polytheism. is that a decent definition?

LMAO. Okay, now I know why I can't talk to you. The earth is 6000 years old.

So what do you think about carbon-dating. Oh wait that's a lie isn't it? Just like everything else that science discovers. (Except of course if they discover something in favor of christianity like the location of the ark or whatever it is that they do)

If God was real why didn't he make us just have all the shit we have now? Why did he make us live in caves and suffer for centuries?

Even if you believe that the world magically poofed into existence you should know that the Romans and the Greeks were pagans and they lived centuries before the dark ages.

quote:

Suggestion: Maybe we should define paganism before throwing facts around on it. Paganism has a lot of definitions depending on what you are talking about. Sometimes it means all non-Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judiaism, and Islam) and sometimes it refers to Neo-paganism (like Wicca), historical polytheism, and folk religions of indigenous people.
The vagueness can make discussion pretty confusing, especially when dates get involved.

What pagans are are not only non-abrahamic religions as you so plainly put it a majority of them were druids, wiccans, witches, warlocks, necromancers, etc. plus hindus, some islamic's and celtic warriors. mainly based on what they practiced and a few are based on the gods they worshipped.

quote:

No. Most of us know that paganism originated 30,000+ years ago. Get with the fucking program, romashu.

are you really that iggnorant to actually believe that the earth is that old? By just using the genealogies in the book of genesis ive figured out that the earth is actually much much much younger about 6159 years lod give or take a few years.

Suggestion: Maybe we should define paganism before throwing facts around on it. Paganism has a lot of definitions depending on what you are talking about. Sometimes it means all non-Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judiaism, and Islam) and sometimes it refers to Neo-paganism (like Wicca), historical polytheism, and folk religions of indigenous people.
The vagueness can make discussion pretty confusing, especially when dates get involved.

just sayin'

quote:

Originally posted by Romashu:


yes im sure that most of us know that paganism originated in the dark ages of europe.

No. Most of us know that paganism originated 30,000+ years ago. Get with the fucking program, romashu.

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tis true. paganism is a religion. i am a wiccan, a neo-pagan. and it has been recognize by the U.S. government an the U.S. military as a true religion. Quite frankly, our religion came into existence thousands of years before yours was even thought of. you are in no position to bash it. i sorry but i hate when people go around preaching to people that there religion is right and when they us scare tactics to try to get people to convert. it makes me so angry.....

yes im sure that most of us know that paganism originated in the dark ages of europe.

But accorrding to what u say something that someone calls a religion just has to be accpeted by the US gov. and the US military to become a true religion?

frankly ik very few churches that actually use these scare tactics like scientologists for example.

if u want i can give u an entire lesson on why christians think paganism is wrong and u can judge for urself but all i ask is that u be open minded instead of just looking for something to make an agnry remark about.

Yeah, most people don't like the fact that their own religion is based on paganism...

tis true. paganism is a religion. i am a wiccan, a neo-pagan. and it has been recognize by the U.S. government an the U.S. military as a true religion. Quite frankly, our religion came into existence thousands of years before yours was even thought of. you are in no position to bash it. i sorry but i hate when people go around preaching to people that there religion is right and when they us scare tactics to try to get people to convert. it makes me so angry.....

How is nature the strongest argument for the existance of god? If anything it should be the biggest reason why god isn't real. He puts people through hell and kills his followers all the time with his 'natural disasters'.

Paganism is when you worship like the roman gods or just multiple gods, like the god of the forest, the god of the sky, etc. You don't just go around worshipping the tree, You worship who is in charge of that tree being there.

I don't understand how 'paganism' is at all a set spiritual belief or a religion at all.

The observance of nature as a force isn't a spiritual idea. Matter-of-factly, it is nature that is used as the strongest argument for the existence of God.

I believe 'paganism' -as defined by many of post read here- is really only seeing part of what nature is. A little study into Natural Law would be helpful.

I personally feel that paganism is the most natural religion. I cant tell you how the world was created or why the universe was, but i can tell you we werent meant to destroy it. The Earth is a gift and were treating like brats. I believe everyone should recycle and try to help fix the planet.

man now im confuzled i thought anti matter was like pure energy?

lol, no you're thinking of dark matter. Dark matter is what is found in between galaxies and makes up like 70% of the universe. It's like not nothing, it's almost the opposite of matter, like reverse matter. lol, and dark matter and regular matter touch all the time.

Anti-matter is bascially atoms with reverse charges, ie protons are negative while the electrons are positive. We have created antimatter but it's uber expensive and we don't know everything about it yet.

lol, chaotic can you use one post?