Some people have asked me to prove that Jesus lived, and that the Bible stories are true. OK, one, the computer experts have traced everyday as far back as possible. They could not find this one day. For those of you who read the Bible, Daniel prayed that for one day the sun would never set, and it didn't. That is why they will never find that one day. Cause the sun never did set that day. Proof that God created the world. Well , you are sitting on his earth! Proof that Jesus lived! I have nothing to give you, but the Christian faith! Faith tells me he lived! Faith helped three Americans preach the Word of God in Iran, and come home alive! If I recall accurately, the Greeks made up their own religion. As far as I have researched, the Chinese mad up their religion. No offense, but do you have proof that the Hindu gods lived? If you do, I would love to hear it. I have a BFF that didn't believe in Jesus or the Bible. I told her that he exsists, and she believed me, cause I told her, that I would never lie to her, and I never have. I never will. If you think this is a lie, well, when you die, you will see an angel with a book. Ask her if your name is in there. If she says no, we'll see who's religion is correct when you have to look at Satan, and be cast into the Lake of Fire. You will see Jesus, and he will say I never knew you. If you think this is scary, well, it is. I am not trying to offend anyone, but simply share the TRUTH! All of what I wrote will happen if your name is not in that book! You can hate me, but I do not care, because I have done what my father has asked of me, and that is to share the gosple with you! God bless all who have taken time to read this!

I just wanted to make sure that anyone reading this knows that that "let's move on" comment was solely directed towards widget... so please no one take offense! franks

"oh my goodness, can we just move on with our lives? i've made my point, and i'm sure you've made yours. enough already."


sweet.
let the chips fall where they may.

And another thing- Jesus did exist, he was a historical figure. There is no doubt about that fact among scholars and historians. Furthermore, thus far in history, archaeology has verified countless events/places written about in the bible. All religious and faith matters aside, the bible is known for its contribution of historical documentation.

Just a sidenote to fantasygurl: Our beliefs are not necessarily cemented in us from what we were raised with- I was raised by an atheist mother who didn't believe in anything, and a father who couldn't decide between religions so tried out a few (while dragging me with him to several different churches and such). I actually only became a Christian a year ago, and I'm in college. Beliefs are personal- maybe you believe what you were raised with while you're still a child, but once you learn to think for yourself, you choose your own beliefs (whether it is to stick with your childhood beliefs or adhere to something new). But hey- everyone's free to think what they want.

oh my goodness, can we just move on with our lives? i've made my point, and i'm sure you've made yours. enough already.

I think that it can't be really prooved that Jesus or most of the other biblical events occured and I believe everyoine has a right to their own opinion on this topic. I also know that in this not knowing is where the christina attitude of FAITH comes in this is an unshalable believe in something that you cannot see or hold its actually like a firm belief in the unbelievable . The only day christiands will prove that they were right that Jesus exhisted is when he come s cause the "you shall know as you're known" so tough I can't prove it and won't waste time trying to I'llsa y I know Jesus exhists so.. the rest is up to you.

Religion is one of those topics that people bring up over and over again, and people will have strong views that have been instilled in them since birth. It is entertaining to read, but do you really think that you are going to change any relativly stable person's opinions?

If something has been drilled into your head since you were a little kid, by those around you who love you and care for you, or just those around you, you are going to believe in it fully.

I know that I am going to get verbally assaulted for this, even though i am going to say that i am not making any equal comparisons with religion, but it is much like the Hilter Youth. Do you think that those masses of people would be fiercly racist and have the ability to kill so easily if it had not been fed to them?

Thinking of this then, how sane does it sound for a person to say that others will burn in an eternal hell? I do not believe that ideas this frightening and condemning would come from any type of creator. Oops, there I go with my opinion on religion... What "all-loving-God" would seem to have less love for "his children" than any mother has for her children. Would any of your mothers cast you into a pit of hell if you did not do exactly what she said?

I do not think so. She knows that we will learn, just as I believe we do in a greater sense. There is no place to go other than up. Bad thoughts breed other bad thoughts, and how helpful is that?

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i really don't see the validity to your argument, widget. If the "group of people" i am referring to are scoffers, then it would not be a "vicious stereotype", but a properly placed discernment. Stereotypes refer to judgments illogically or unfairly meted out on certain people. If I'm talking about a person or people who scoff at the bible (in your words, a certain group), then it makes complete sense for me to say that a scoffer will do just that- scoff (wow, I said scoff a lot-my bad). My entire point was not to argue about stereotyping, but to argue the fact that my statement was nothing like vicious stereotyping- I was merely making the point that scoffers will not take the Gospel seriously. Lastly, I think it's universally accepted that when the issue of stereotyping is concerned with "groups of people", these groups tend to refer to: race, age, status, religion, etc. It's not like if I had said, "Pro-lifers tend to think abortion is wrong" you would say that I was making a vicious stereotype- bcuz pro-lifers DO TEND to do just that. Same thing with scoffers.

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If you were originally talking about "scoffers", your point would be valid. However, this was what you originally said:

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~tell people the Gospel, but don't waste your time trying to convince them or prove Christianity. They'll just throw it back in your face and attack you (your character, your beliefs)in return.

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Now, that statement stereotypes those who don't believe in Christianity as being especially prone to being mean to anyone trying to show them the "Truth." See what I'm trying to say?

I want to thank you Genius for your intelligent and thoughtful remarks. And right on with that bit from Contact about not being able to prove love but still knowing it exists--that always trips me up. You're absolutely right, I do like to be able to prove everything I believe, and I agree that science largely is my religion, my need for certainty, my faith that a reasonable answer can be provided. And I think on a certain level I do believe in a higher power that got the whole thing started, but I've never been able to really get a grip around the concept of the whole "omnipotent" God figure. I certainly don't believe in the Bible...I think it is the words of men who needed to assign reason to nature in ways that weren't scientifically possible at the time. But once again, I don't begrudge anyone their right to believe what they choose. I do get defensive when people misinterpret my attempts at discussion as attacks...I certainly get defensive strike back when attacked (or when something is so stupid that it offends my sensibilities, which is a character flaw of mine, I know), but am usually not the one to initiate mudslinging unless I'm in a bad mood.

But I digress. Joey, Rockgirl is right about the difference between knowing and believing. I know that you believe that Jesus is the son of the one true God and that the Bible is the one true word...I know what the beliefs are, I just happen not to believe them. That doesn't make me ignorant or naive--I am neither. The proof that I find for the Bible is that it was written by men, men with limited resources to understand the world in which they lived. And that it proscribes a code of morality and values, a code not dissimilar from the one I follow myself. As for heaven and hell, I think that when I die, I will be dead, end of story. Given that this is my belief, if I had to choose between your Heaven and your hell, I would choose your Hell every time, simply because I think the conversation would be more interesting there.

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But don't come on here thinking you know about what the Christian faith is - because if you knew ANYTHING whatsoever, you would know that Jesus Christ is the ONLY God, the Bible is the ONLY written Truth, and that Heaven is THE place Jesus Christ and his People will spend eternity at/in.

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Joey, you can know ABOUT something without ACCEPTING it as fact.

Take yourself, for example.

You know so much about homosexuality, don't you? Yet you still believe it's wrong.

Like I said before.

Naive, belligerent - shall I go on?

You're right about one thing; I don't spend as much time as I should studying up on all the world's religions like you state you have done.

Which is good, you're doing it by yourself.

But you would not rather spend an eternity in Hell - you surely wouldn't choose that over Heaven.

But hey, it's your choice, your beliefs - not my judgement and not my call.

But don't come on here thinking you know about what the Christian faith is - because if you knew ANYTHING whatsoever, you would know that Jesus Christ is the ONLY God, the Bible is the ONLY written Truth, and that Heaven is THE place Jesus Christ and his People will spend eternity at/in.

"And on a more personal note, doesn't it seem sad that your whole belief system is based on stuff that largely can't be proven?"

Can't be proven?

With all that research you do, you can't seem to prove any of the Bible?

Typical.

ok well- I'm a Christian, and I believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, and the Rapture and all other things related to such... but I did want to say that Brooke made a very intelligent and fair statement in regards to Joey's comment. It's not right to attack her (Brooke) like that. We all can make our own decisions about eternity and beliefs and whatnot- I personally do believe in Christianity. And what I wanted to add to Brooke's oiginal question: I don't presume to imply that I know everything, because who does? But I can say this, and I'm sure anyone will agree. There can only be ONE correct religion, one TRUTH. In every aspect of reality, there is only ONE TRUTH. 2+2 will ALWAYS equal 4. There are no "interpretations" of 2+2, no "I think it adds up to 5" "I think it's 4". There's no shades of truth, only an ABSOLUTE. All religions cannot be the same in truth simply because they share similarities. Yes, Islam, Judaism and Christianity all believe in one god. But these versions of God are NOT THE SAME. Christianity says Jesus is God. Neither Judaism or Islam recognizes this statement as truth. Right there, you can see that the religions do not have the same God, because Christianity is very specific in terms of who God is. I'm not going to sit here and criticize anyone's religion or anyone's choice- God gave us free will, to accept Him or not. I don't treat non-Christians any different, that's not right. I spent the last few years pursuing a religion minor, and have also done intensive study on world religions (Western). I can also say that I am pretty knowledgeable on the subject. And like you said, I wasn't about to believe something just because I was told it was true. I researched it like crazy before I accepted its validity! I find it much sadder to solely base my belief system ONLY on things that can be "proven" true. People (and I am taking the liberty of being very broad and general here) tend to only believe in things that can be proven (usually by science, ie. scientific method). Scientism is the new religion nowadays. This is going out on a limb here (with my metaphor), but I can't only be sure that my parents/boyfriend/family love me because I can PROVE it! I just know it's true, and don't question it. I dunno- I hope I did a good job of getting my point across! Oh and one more thing: about my self-worth... Like it says in the bible: "...thou canst not make one hair white or black" (Mathew 5:36). If I based my entire sense of worth on only what I can do- I'd be disappointed a lot. I can't make myself well when I'm sick, I can't make it rain or give myself an inch in height- ya know? There are a lot of areas in life that a person can't do ANYTHING. And what are talents but God-given blessings?

*applauds Brooke*

I don't even know where to begin in defending myself against your unprovoked and unfounded attacks.

I guess I'll start with my background in religion. Given that my uncle is an Episcopalian minister, my boyfriend is Jewish, my grandparents used to live in a very Muslim part of Libya, and I just wrote a sixty page independent research paper entitled "Liberation Theology and the Modern Political Economy" for Government, I'd say I've gone above and beyond "reading up on" Christianity and world religion. Fortunately I find your impertinence amusing given my extensive background in religious study so I won't take that personally. I'd venture a guess that I'm significantly more educated than you are on world religions (most of it independent study on my own time)--in fact I'd venture a guess than I'm smarter than you in general, but of course these are my guesses and subject obviously to extensive debate, so I'll move on.

Who are the "pundits" you're referring to? Do you even know what "pundit" means? I don't claim to be an expert on much of anything (in spite of my previously stated background in the matter), so I don't really know what that attack was all about. My point is simply that I won't rush foolishly into a belief just because someone tells me it is absolute truth (absolute truth being a concept to which I can't reasonably subscribe anyway). I choose to found my beliefs in life on my experiences in that life, rather than your approach which is to cling to a system of beliefs that makes life on earth more tolerable with the promise of eternal salvation. But I won't begrudge you your right to do so.

So since I am already a naive belligerent who is doomed to eternal damnation in the firey pits of hell, let me go on the record as saying that you, JoeyDauben, are an imbecile. But if it is easier for you to hide behind the Bible on such a wide range of issues as you do rather than form a coherent original thought of your own, once again, I won't begrudge you that right. I would rather be damned than spend eternity with you in the Kingdom of Heaven.

JoeyDauben - Brooke was asking questions and all you can do is call her names and say she's not interested in learning "the truth." All you did was become defensive, you didn't even attempt to answer her questions with an open mind. Who's the belligerent one...

Blueangel, you implied that watching the Left Behind movies were superior to reading the Book of Revelation.

I'm not mad, I'm not trying to attack you, but I just want to let you know that even the Christian Church - the last church age that is described in the Book of Revelation - will suffer from mass deception.

The Left Behind movies, books, etc. are I'm sure very good - in fact, I'd give anything if I could watch them this weekend.

But what I'm trying to say is this:

Christians around the globe believe that some awesome Rapture is just going to come and take us all away before the Great Tribulation and the Antichrist's reign.

I'm still studying up on it all, so I can't make an informed statement saying one way or another.

But we do know that Jesus Christ is going to come back for His people - all people.

And we are allowed to know the month/season in which Jesus Christ comes back.

But to use the commercialization of Revelation, which the Left Behind series definitely is, is very dangerous.

How are we to know what will happen in the future without reading the prophets and Revelation?

Baptists, Methodists, Catholics ...they aren't focused on future events - the ones in which they might be a part of.

It's highly important that we as Christians study ALL facets of the Book.

If you would like more information about it, go to my website:

http://www.joeydauben.com

It will have links for the beginners of Bible prophecy. It's very informative.

You can look on the Testimony links on your left.

Anyway, thanks for listening/reading.

Brooke, if you or any other non-believer spent as much time actually researching (independently) and reading up on the Christianity you're so quick to attack, you would actually be surprised.

Of course, given the fact that you come off as some belligerent, naive pundit, I'm pretty sure you couldn't take time out to do that.


Seriously, you want to know why we believe in what we do? Want to know how we know that Christianity is the world's only TRUE religious faith?

At least make an attempt to want to know.

The critics can slam us all they want, but you know, if there's an opposing viewpoint someone has, either political, social, or religious, I'll actually take time to read up on the opposing views, what they believe, etc.

But you know, Christians, whether you want to believe this or not, are the most persecuted followers in the world.

It's absolutely, 100 percent true. And of course, being mocked, spit on, yelled at, kicked, ridiculed is nothing new.

Life is about decisions, decisions, decisions.

But be prepared.

The biggest decision of your earthly life will certainly decide your eternal destination.


How do I know this?

Look it up yourself in the Bible - again, it's nothing the pundits and critics want to do themselves, but hey, the Bible is open to all people, all races, all languages, etc.

You just have to actually WANT to make the decision to read up on it to find out what we're all talking about here.

For all you big believers out there who think the non-believers are going to hell:

One god, right? That's the deal? If there truly is but one God and one true dogma, how do you explain other religions (non- Judeo/Christian religions)? What about their prophets and martyrs and sacred texts? Doesn't it seem odd to you that there are so many similar stories in so many varied religious traditions? How can you fight the logic (given these historical consistencies) that religion is nothing more than man trying to create reason and order in a chaotic world so he won't feel so alone? And on a more personal note, doesn't it seem sad that your whole belief system is based on stuff that largely can't be proven? And that you feel compelled to look outside yourself for validation and reason for being? Doesn't that screw with your self worth, always assuming that good things happening to you has nothing to do with you yourself and your own talents but with some inane belief you have in a voice from the sky?

Solemnimage: When you die, you will believe. Just because you do not want to believe does not mean it is not there. Life has many choices, eternity only has two. You do not believe, you go to hell. You believe and accept, you go to Heaven.

Lakrzy: Personally, your life does belong to Jesus. He made you. Also, when it comes to this, if I am wrong, then oh well, but if I am, I have got it made.
Blueangel: I appreciate your kind words.