Vouchers are good for everyone. It gets poor and usually minority students out of low/no performing schools and gives them an oppertunity to get a quality education. The federal bureucracy of education has gotten way out of control, and are securely in the pocket of the NEA and AFT. That has to be changed because students are suffering and they should have a better option.

If it is a law that your children must be educated and you cannot afford to send them to private school then they are forced to go into the public schools for what has proven to be a low quality education.

Any thoughts?

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I would like to hereby state that all disparaging remarks made about fellow members of the great and honorable coalition against racism have been categorically withdrawn. I apologize to my fellow founding fathers for my arrogant dishonor.

Agreed. I think it is time we move to the man boards that attack black history month.

I would like to hereby state that all disparaging remarks made about fellow members of the great and honorable coalition against racism have been categorically withdrawn. I apologize to my fellow founding fathers for my arrogant dishonor.

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1)Citizens must go to college

I never said that. College is a better measure than testing. That's what I said.

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2)College graduates must watch the news, must read the newspaper, must listen to talk radio, and must read a foreign news source

If a college graduate does not do those things, they are abandoning their responsibilities as much as a coal miner is by not doing those things.

Once again, college is not a necessity, it is a measurement. Just as you would not say that all who do not take CSAP's are abandoning their responsibilities, I would not say that about college. It is a measurement, not a standard. Education is the standard. Not formal education, just education. I defined an adequate means of education below (paper, radio, etc.)

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3)Those above must not only vote but be active in the political process

I don't know what you mean by this.

Citizens should not vote unless they have educated themselves thoroughly and comprehensively first.

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So you think if someone is not well informed on your idea of democratic involvment they should not enter into a debate with you

These ideas are not mine. I wish I could say they were.

People should not form opinions before they have studied an issue comprehensively.

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Why don't you provide links to where we can find information on models of democratic involvment?

I don't have the ability to link you to my freshman poli sci text. So look up the Athenian democratic system. Then the Roman. Then the English. Then the American. Then a modern mandatory democracy.

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I think you have resorted to pretending you are intellectually superior on this topic and can't waste you time discussing it

Than prove me wrong. I am discussing it quite freely, however if you want to become more informed, I suggest you look elsewhere. A debate counterpart is not a traditional source of information.

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Originally posted by notsojoey:

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Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:
I'm not your teacher. It's not my job to educate you. If you want to get into a discussion about democratic involvement, you should come to said discussion well informed.

So you're not going to discuss different models of democratic involvment? Fair enough, I guess you can't even explain your own model of democratic involvment. Let me try to help:

1)Citizens must go to college
2)College graduates must watch the news, must read the newspaper, must listen to talk radio, and must read a foreign news source
3)Those above must not only vote but be active in the political process

Is this not your model for democratic participation? So you think if someone is not well informed on your idea of democratic involvment they should not enter into a debate with you?

Why don't you provide links to where we can find information on models of democratic involvment? A google search yields nothing.

I think you have resorted to pretending you are intellectually superior on this topic and can't waste you time discussing it because you do not even know what you are talking when you talk about forms of democratic involvment.

I am well informed on vouchers (the subject of this thread). I have proven that vouchers work to increase knowledge.

You have said that you think that private schools will not do a good job of instilling democratic and civil principles. You have no proof for that.

Public schools have made freshman civics optional. That is not instilling civic and democratic values. Why would public schools be better able to do this than prvate schools?

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Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:
I'm not your teacher. It's not my job to educate you. If you want to get into a discussion about democratic involvement, you should come to said discussion well informed.

So you're not going to discuss different models of democratic involvment? Fair enough, I guess you can't even explain your own model of democratic involvment. Let me try to help:

1)Citizens must go to college
2)College graduates must watch the news, must read the newspaper, must listen to talk radio, and must read a foreign news source
3)Those above must not only vote but be active in the political process

Is this not your model for democratic participation? So you think if someone is not well informed on your idea of democratic involvment they should not enter into a debate with you?

I think you have resorted to pretending you are intellectually superior on this topic and can't waste you time discussing it because you do not even know what you are talking when you talk about forms of democratic involvment.

I'm not your teacher. It's not my job to educate you. If you want to get into a discussion about democratic involvement, you should come to said discussion well informed.

So then what models?

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What models are you talking about, yours?

No, not mine.

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What does our constitution have to do with different models of democratic involvement?

What models are you talking about, yours?

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If you can't be bothered to vote, you don't deserve the benefits of a democratic society.

Too often though, people focus on 'voting' rather than 'being informed, then voting'.

If you can't be bothered to vote, you don't deserve the benefits of a democratic society.

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So a person who is not active in the democracy is a bad citizen?

Yes.

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Also, your measurement of your goal continues to change. First it was college; then military service; then government service; then reading a few paper, some of them foriegn.

Upon being pressed through dialog, I was forced to think in greater depth. That is why debates such as this one are beneficial to society. Nobody can explore all the facets of an issue unless there is an antagonistic dialog forcing them to bring themselves outside their natural considerations.

But the only change I have made to my original statement is to add voting to college as a measure of our goals.

Although civil and military service, along with personal maintenance of education are functions of a healthy democratic consciousness, they are not, in my estimation, the best to measure.

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Where does it say this? Maybe our constitutions are different.

What does our constitution have to do with different models of democratic involvement?

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It is the democratic responsibility of a person to be active in the democracy.

Where does it say this? Maybe our constitutions are different.

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It is the democratic responsibility of a person to be active in the democracy.

So a person who is not active in the democracy is a bad citizen?

Also, your measurement of your goal continues to change. First it was college; then military service; then government service; then reading a few paper, some of them foriegn. Maybe you could restate your measurement again just so I can get the picture of how you measure: "To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society."

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If by democratic responsibilities you mean to pay taxes and register for selective service

Those would be social duties, not democratic responsibilities.

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I take it you think democratic responsibilities means something else, so please define.

It is the democratic responsibility of a person to be active in the democracy. That is to say that they must vote. But voting without first educating yourself thoroughly and continuously is irresponsible. Therefore, it is imperative that you be educated to fulfill your democratic responsibilities.

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democratic responsibilities

If by democratic responsibilities you mean to pay taxes and register for selective service if you are a male, I don't see how college and devoting at least an hour and a half to reading newspapers, listening to talk radio, television news, and foreign news sources.

I take it you think democratic responsibilities means something else, so please define.

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So what are we talking about, reading the paper?

You can't rely on a single papers editor to inform you. You need more than one source. But talk radio, newspapers, television news, and a foreign news source are good enough. I know people who do that and are more aware of current events, and more involved in the national debate than lots of college friends.

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I get that. College, military and government service, and reading the paper is the way to measure that our schools are teaching kids.

Tests are probably fine to measure whether our system is teaching basic skills. But a test won't show whether people are fulfilling their democratic responsibilities.

Yes, the number of students who continue on to college would monitor the fulfillment of that responsibility better than a basic skills test.

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I think the purpose of pre-college schooling is to adequately instill basic facts that will prepare the graduate for the work force.

So our education system has nothing to do with what kind of society we're building, but only what kind of economy. I guess we just have different goals for our country.

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Do I really care if I'm condescending to you? Your'e not exactly Mr. respect on the forums.

No, I care that you are condecending to people who work very hard to take care of their responsibilities. Being an ivory tower academic is not the only way to become a "responsible citizen". You are just not prepared to give up your elitist statement.

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Member of society, yes. Citizen, not inherently so (I'm sure many coal miners keep themselves educated).

So what are we talking about, reading the paper? We measure the acheivement of our school system by determining whether or not the people who leave it go to college, the military, government jobs, or reading the paper? This sounds very silly to me.

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College was the measurement, not the goal. Do we really have to go back to the difference between those two?

I get that. College, military and government service, and reading the paper is the way to measure that our schools are teaching kids. Not tests. I get it. I think the purpose of pre-college schooling is to adequately instill basic facts that will prepare the graduate for the work force. I measure this using standardized tests.

Your goal leads to an inability to track performance and leads to the lack of accountability. Your measurement is so ridiculous that it could not possibly tell us anything.