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That is your response to my question of "how do you measure that your goal is being met?" Your goal remember was: "To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society".

College was the measurement, not the goal. Do we really have to go back to the difference between those two?

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The coalmine worker has done none of those. Therefore, by your definition he is not a "productive and responsible citizen and member of society". This is wrong.

Member of society, yes. Citizen, not inherently so (I'm sure many coal miners keep themselves educated).

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I feel like I am talking with an elitist who knows that his position is condecending and cannot support it.

Do I really care if I'm condescending to you? Your'e not exactly Mr. respect on the forums.

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You see what number of students go on to college with success to evaluate their progression as a member of society.

That is your response to my question of "how do you measure that your goal is being met?" Your goal remember was: "To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society". You mention college. Now it has changed to college, military service, government service, and some sort of education past high school.

The coalmine worker has done none of those. Therefore, by your definition he is not a "productive and responsible citizen and member of society". This is wrong.

I feel like I am talking with an elitist who knows that his position is condecending and cannot support it.

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To tell me that a man, who got a GED at 18 and works his ass off in a coalmine to support his family and to take care of his responsibilities, who pays his taxes, follows the law, and is moral... to tell me that that man is not a productive member of society and is not a valuable citizen is insulting.

I did not say he doesn't have value. He fulfills his responsibility to his family, his community and to the law. Of course your grandfather did something that makes up for a lack of education, he gave his life freely to the republic in time of war. "The last full measure of devotion" as Lincoln put it. But for other citizens, ones who do not serve in the military or civil service, a lack of education represents a complete abandonment of your democratic responsibilities.

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Maybe in your family, you have no one to point to, but your assertion that a college education translates into a good citizen is morally reprehensible.

You are making illogical conclusions. I feel like I'm arguing with a child. First, I never said anything about college. You just need to continue your education beyond the "basic facts" that we learn in high school.

Second, if you need a diploma to be a teacher, does that mean all who have diplomas are teachers? Of course not. If you were intellectually honest, you wouldn't make such stupid statements.

Many people with degrees are quite poor citizens.

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But the simple fact, is that vouchers are constitutional

So what. Lot's of things are constitutional that are bad for society. I understand that you want to fund madrases. I understand that you want to fund jehovas witness schools. I don't understand why you think the government should fund them.

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Education beyond high school is absolutely crucial to being a responsible citizen. Political activity is necessary to be a responsible citizen, and education is necessary to engage in political activity responsibly.

This is the most insulting and elitist thing you have ever said I think. To tell me that a man, who got a GED at 18 and works his ass off in a coalmine to support his family and to take care of his responsibilities, who pays his taxes, follows the law, and is moral... to tell me that that man is not a productive member of society and is not a valuable citizen is insulting.

My Grandfather had no college degree and worked hard his whole life because he had a sense of duty to his family and his community. He was a great citizen and a wonderful member of society. Maybe in your family, you have no one to point to, but your assertion that a college education translates into a good citizen is morally reprehensible.

This was of course off topic, but had to be raised.

I agree that charter schools are a huge start to improving the education system and that unions are the primary enemy of this. But the simple fact, is that vouchers are constitutional and they work in the case of improving scores (the only way to measure acheivememt in school) based on kids who did nottake advantage of vouchers and who were stuck in failing schools.

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Not true. The Cleavland program showed that a majoriy went to the Hope School, a non-parochial school.

The reality is that the vast majority of your vouchers are going to parochial schools and that "prep schools" positively affect your statistics even though you vouchers can't even cover 15% of tuition there.

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That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Many people don't go to college. That doesn't mean that they don't fit you standard of "To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society."

Education beyond high school is absolutely crucial to being a responsible citizen. Political activity is necessary to be a responsible citizen, and education is necessary to engage in political activity responsibly.



Your statistics in favor of vouchers are flawed.I have already said that the most important factor in a students education is the involvement of the parents. That cannot be measured statistically.

I understand that I'm preaching to the choir on this point BSP, but right now, the greatest opposition to improving our education system comes from the teacher unions opposition to charter schools. Charter can be the silver bullet in our education system, but the unions oppose them.

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You see what number of students go on to college with success to evaluate their progression as a member of society. As a citizen, you may find it harder to measure but voluntary political involvement is a start.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Many people don't go to college. That doesn't mean that they don't fit you standard of "To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society."

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The reality is that these vouchers are going to be going to parochial schools

Not true. The Cleavland program showed that a majoriy went to the Hope School, a non-parochial school.

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how do you measure that to make sure it is working?

You see what number of students go on to college with success to evaluate their progression as a member of society. As a citizen, you may find it harder to measure but voluntary political involvement is a start.

I know that part of your rebuttal will likely be that private schools send more students to college- I think those statistics (as well as testing stats) can be misleading for four main reasons which I will present below:

First- The demographics of private schools must be added in to the equation. Private schools do not generally have ghettos making up their student bodies. To compare them to suburban schools would be closer to a demographic equal. Crime and poverty often affect the ability of students to perform.

Second- Classrooms are larger in public schools.

Third- Even compared to the schools in the economically more secure neighborhoods, there are going to be a lower number of parents who are active in their child's education than in the private school. The simple act of sending your child to a private school shows that you care about your child's education. Of course many parents who care greatly send their kids to public school. But if 80% of "parents who care" send their kids to public schools, and 20% to private, all of that 20% (which then becomes 100% of the private school parents) care about their child's education. A 100% parent caring percentage may be the greatest effect of all on the private schools success.

Fourth- The reality is that these vouchers are going to be going to parochial schools, not prep schools. So when you talk about private school stats, you should probably separate the one's the vouchers will actually go to from the rest.

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To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society

And how do you make sure a system whose goal is that has any acountability, and how do you measure that to make sure it is working?

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You don't accept my response as valid

It's because an education system has a social purpose. It's like saying that the purpose of learning to drive is to pass drivers ed.

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OK. I will ask you the same question.

To give people the skills they need to be a productive and responsible citizen and member of society.

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What is your goal for the education system?

You don't accept my response as valid, OK. I will ask you the same question.

To add on what FML said, higher test scores don't necessarily equate to more knowledge.

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more knowledge

Epistemologically speaking, truth and knowledge are not inherently elated. I prefer a duty to truth than to a convoluted word like knowledge.

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Higher test scores

Shouldn't tests be a monitor of other goals rather than the goal itself?

"Higher test scores" does not make sense as the primary goal of an education system.

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Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:

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Vouchers work

What is your goal for the education system? I'm wandering toward what end your vouchers "work."

Higher test scores and more knowledge. That is my goal. Not jobs for teachers, administrators, and bureaucrats.

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Vouchers work

What is your goal for the education system? I'm wandering toward what end your vouchers "work."

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Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:

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I just want kids to have the best education possible. If vouchers do that, whats the problem?

That they don't. Creationism isn't part of a good education.

I'm not sure about this but I am getting the feeling that you don't like creationism.

Vouchers work. Period.

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I just want kids to have the best education possible. If vouchers do that, whats the problem?

That they don't. Creationism isn't part of a good education.

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Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:

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The G.I bill funds plenty of "crackpot" curriculi

The GI bill is part of the general compensation for their service. It is relative to their paycheck. You don't get to decide what they spend their money on or what kind of university they use their GI bill on.

It isn't realtive to their paycheck. That is what you said, see. It isn't reletive to that. It is completely different.

Once again you have steerd the argument to a point that doesn't matter. You win. The GI bill is on soldiers paystubs. I can't tell them where to spend the money. You win the argument that doesn't matter.

That doesn't negate my argument that federl dollars go to all sorts of crazy things.

And it certainly doesn't negate my argument that vouchers work. I just want kids to have the best education possible. If vouchers do that, whats the problem? It isn't a constitutional argument as we know. So the argument is, you don't want to loose your precious monopoly on education.

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The GI Bill is not part of salary.

You keep making variations on that statement, none of which negate my statement that it is compensation.

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Originally posted by FreeMarketLover:

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That's right but bis stock options are different from salary, they are bonus incentives. They are even taxed differently.

That does not negate my statement that they are both compensation.

The GI Bill is not part of salary. It is the government paying for a person to attend a religious college if he wishes.

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That's right but bis stock options are different from salary, they are bonus incentives. They are even taxed differently.

That does not negate my statement that they are both compensation.