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that use the fact that they are a women to slide past things like accountability and responsibility and that scary thing called knowledge and logic

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Don't bother insulting my intelligence, I have plenty of smarts to make it wherever I choose in life thank you very much. I happen to have the highest grade in my law class right now, with a majority of guys in the class. I ranked within the top two percent in the country with my ACT score, trust me, intelligence is no problem. I am going to a private university next year, and based only on academics, I will be getting 70% of my tuition covered. I received confirmation of my acceptance into the National Honor Roll today...and guess what? Not a speck of this is based on my gender.

So, you being a guy, with no "special benefits" of being a girl, have what sort of academic following? I would imagine it is super extensive, because as you have made perfectly clear, guys are SO much smarter than girls and I personally am going NOWHERE in life...

Sorry meagan I had to chuckle at your post...

You have misunderstood me, not because I was unclear but because you find it beneficial to your argument to misunderstand me... My argument is not that men should be dominant, nor has it been at all, my argument is that if women want to be treated equal they need to be able to put up with the same old **** every guy puts up with. by your defenition of harrasment, you are technically harrassing me, because I find women like yourself to be annoying, as I find all women politicians, that use the fact that they are a women to slide past things like accountability and responsibility and that scary thing called knowledge and logic.

you want to go into legal and political field, dont expect any favors from anyone, being female will only get you so far there.

First may I say that my teacher does not teach anything the way he is supposed to. He recently had us read an article entitled "Buddy Sex", a five page article all about how teens are "hooking up" instead of having relationships...he really does not teach anything because he is "supposed to".

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Originally posted by Meagan87:
Maybe I have led you to believe that I am just your average girl, well I am not.
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thats what they all say

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I think I have already PROVEN that to you.

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thats all well and good... try earning it like men have to do.

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How exactly do men need to EARN their respect?

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and I KNOW THAT THERE ARE LOTS OF WOMEN OUT THER WHO DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT,
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glad you saw the light.

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Not a problem, I have no problem admitting other people are wrong.

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this has got to be the first time i ever heard a feminazi denounce other women.

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I will ignore for a minute that you compared me with a bunch of very evil people from WWII Germany and remind you that I am not your average girl.

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how is it that you feel your being harrassed?

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dictionary.com defines harassment as

ha·rass ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-rs, hrs)
tr.v. ha·rassed, ha·rass·ing, ha·rass·es
To irritate or torment persistently.

I would say that most guys are guilty of that, although not necessary with any sexual connotation...

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Thats not really a double standard

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Wanna bet? They don't like the fact that I would be a GIRL driving alone, because they are afraid I will be a target for attacks...

It really ultimately does not matter what you think because women are becoming equal in this society no matter how much you argue against it. I am planning for a career in the legal/political field, and even though it is a male-dominated field, I will be successful becuase today's society supports my opinion, not yours...

Good night all, I need to get the most out of my few remaining days for beauty sleep, then its back to 5:45 mornings...

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Originally posted by Meagan87:
Maybe I have led you to believe that I am just your average girl, well I am not.

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thats what they all say

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Yes, I do have a lot of pride in the fact that I am a woman, and I want to be treated with dignity and respect,

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thats all well and good... try earning it like men have to do.

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and I KNOW THAT THERE ARE LOTS OF WOMEN OUT THER WHO DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT,

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glad you saw the light.

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I understand why guys harass the girls who dress trashy and show off WAY more than they should...in a way, they are asking for it.

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this has got to be the first time i ever heard a feminazi denounce other women.

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What I do not understand is why I am harassed while dressed showing no cleavage and showing no tummy...that my friend is where I do see a problem.

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how is it that you feel your being harrassed?

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I think that if a woman does something stupid like have sex with a minor, she should be punished the same as if gender roles were reversed.

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Yes it is rather hard to dissagee with that, but that really is not the case because boys are steriotyped as sex mongers, when in fact they really didn't enjoy that 40 year old women feeling them up, and making him have sex with her.

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Along with what you were saying about double standards: my parents are considering not allowing me to go to my first choice college next year because I would have to drive through some dodgy neighborhoods. They are worried about what will happen to me, driving by myself every morning, even though my dad has worked in that area for the past 10 years without incident. If I do end up at that college, my friend's (who is staying on campus) parents will not let her drive home with me on fridays, she would be picked up by her dad, because it is not safe for two girls to be driving together...
You want to talk about double standards, let's talk about how I have to alter my life because of all the violence that is advertised against women.

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Thats not really a double standard, nor does it compare to what I was talking about

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BTW: the part about men abusing women because of a loss of control was on a gender-based violence note sheet that my male sociology teacher gave us...

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So what your saying is he's a push over. Or he was given something to teach whether he agrees with it or not... those statistics can be 20 years old for all you know. Not reliable, and not accurate.

Maybe I have led you to believe that I am just your average girl, well I am not. Yes, I do have a lot of pride in the fact that I am a woman, and I want to be treated with dignity and respect, and I KNOW THAT THERE ARE LOTS OF WOMEN OUT THER WHO DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT, just like there are guys. I understand why guys harass the girls who dress trashy and show off WAY more than they should...in a way, they are asking for it. What I do not understand is why I am harassed while dressed showing no cleavage and showing no tummy...that my friend is where I do see a problem. I think that if a woman does something stupid like have sex with a minor, she should be punished the same as if gender roles were reversed.

Along with what you were saying about double standards: my parents are considering not allowing me to go to my first choice college next year because I would have to drive through some dodgy neighborhoods. They are worried about what will happen to me, driving by myself every morning, even though my dad has worked in that area for the past 10 years without incident. If I do end up at that college, my friend's (who is staying on campus) parents will not let her drive home with me on fridays, she would be picked up by her dad, because it is not safe for two girls to be driving together...
You want to talk about double standards, let's talk about how I have to alter my life because of all the violence that is advertised against women.

BTW: the part about men abusing women because of a loss of control was on a gender-based violence note sheet that my male sociology teacher gave us...

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Originally posted by Meagan87:
So you think that most of this is all in a girl's head, here are some statistics:
-in the US, 1.3 women are raped each minute (only 16% of rapes are repoted to the police)
-1 out of 3 American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime
-the US has the highest known rate of rape
-one in four collee women have been victims of rape of attempted rape
-91% of rape victims are female and 99% of offenders are male

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These statistics are misleading, when a woman rapes a boy, it's not called rape, like a teacher in New York had sex with a 14 year old boy, she got endangering the welfare of a minor, and unlawful dealing with a minor. Not rape, which is what it was.

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Just something to think about...we see just how much respect is given to women in our society today.

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I think they get too much respect just because they play the victim all the time.

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Many feel that the reason for the high rate of violence against women is because men feel as though they have a loss of control as women's roles are changing,

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Who is many? Maybe it's not as widespread as you would have us believe.

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yet a man can choose to do whatever he wants in life without consequence.

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We call this bigotry... you apparently have no clue.

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With men and women declared equal by the United States Constitution, I think men should just learn to deal with it as so many women have...

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Yes men should just deal with having sexual harrassment lawsuits dropped on them for petty reasons. Men should just deal with the fact that women hold us to a double standard. Men should just deal with the fact that we have to go through a sexual harrassment course in order to be gainfully employed or in the service. Men should just deal with getting hit, kicked, etc... and just take it, because it's wrong to hit a woman.

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Women have this desire to be considered equall.. well thats fine, as long as you dont mind the crude humor that men enjoy, and your not going to go off and file a sexual harrassment suit everytime a guy looks at you sideways.

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So you think that most of this is all in a girl's head, here are some statistics:
-in the US, 1.3 women are raped each minute (only 16% of rapes are repoted to the police)
-1 out of 3 American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime
-the US has the highest known rate of rape
-one in four collee women have been victims of rape of attempted rape
-91% of rape victims are female and 99% of offenders are male

Just something to think about...we see just how much respect is given to women in our society today. Many feel that the reason for the high rate of violence against women is because men feel as though they have a loss of control as women's roles are changing, yet a man can choose to do whatever he wants in life without consequence. With men and women declared equal by the United States Constitution, I think men should just learn to deal with it as so many women have...

Well Meagan, this WAS a battle of the sexes from the beginning. The underlying question is, do we value the differences between our sexes?

Hydrok, the exact opposite can still be said: "Equal rights? Well then, it's time they start earning the equal rights!" And that's not my personal opinion. It's actually something we started in ethics. But I do agree with the whole sexual harassment thing. A girl grabbed me once, but it would have never succeeded as sexual harassment. It's like it only happens to women, not to mention, all of the time.

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Originally posted by Meagan87:

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Don't sing it, bring it

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Sing/Bring WHAT? I simply stated that no one was going to debate with you on Christmas [Eve] because they have better thing to do...Stop trying to make issues where none actually exist...and they say that girls are the drama queens...

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Someone should just start a war of the sexes thread...

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I agree...This thread is getting VERY off-topic...

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No we are starting to uncover the real problem with women.

Problem is that you all want equal rights. Fine I can deal with that, but there are some things that women are better off not doing, and fighting in wars is one of those things, stay at home and work, bring in money while we are gone, keep the house clean and take care of the kids.

Women have this desire to be considered equall.. well thats fine, as long as you dont mind the crude humor that men enjoy, and your not going to go off and file a sexual harrassment suit everytime a guy looks at you sideways.

Thats the problem, I dont want to be carefull all the time, I dont wanna need to think about the gender profile of the area before I open my mouth.

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Don't sing it, bring it

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Sing/Bring WHAT? I simply stated that no one was going to debate with you on Christmas [Eve] because they have better thing to do...Stop trying to make issues where none actually exist...and they say that girls are the drama queens...

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Someone should just start a war of the sexes thread...

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I agree...This thread is getting VERY off-topic...

Were there any single fathers with children in the Donner Party?
I don't find much of a comparison in that argument, so it's relatively invalid.

Listen, women don't necessarily do any better or worse than men at raising children. Just because women have given birth and have the capability of providing sufficient food through their own bodies does not make them that much more likely to do well.

Traditions are changing. Stay at home fathers are becoming much more common, especially since the mid-nineties. There was a TIME article on it not too long ago. If it were true that mothers stayed at home and cared for the children and whatnot, why are there nannies, servants and cleaners? And why are the men and women now sleeping in the same bed? And why can't men demand supper on the table when he gets home from work? I will end this paragraph as it began. Traditions are changing.

And you say that instinct may not be the best word, yet you prance around the actual word, implying the exact definition of instinct. I don't think you listened to me last time, or read the sources. There is another case study, not on the web but in my book (at school), that found that male chimpanzees were just as likely to care for the offspring when they were abandoned as the females. It is debatable as to why, though it doesn't truly matter why, but that it did occur.

I don't disagree that maternal instinct has somewhat to be acquired, or at least stimulated. I believe in maternal instinct as sort of a mix of genes passed down since the beginning of human life and an acquired love and understanding of a child. If we are going to talk about men as the better soldiers and the stronger physically of the sexes (which I won't, and haven't ever disagreed with), then you have to understand something that women do better. It is in the female blood, so to say, to care for their children. This could be due to the fact that women are the ones who carry the unborn for 9 months. But in the caring for children, while I don't doubt that men do quite a bit of it, I think women are stronger. I again refer you to the case of the Donner party. Another thing is the acquired part. Traditionally, women are the stay-at-home cook and cleaners. They are the ones who take care of the kids while their husbands are at work. This generally allows them to be closer, more connected to their kids than the husband. Obviously this isn't true in EVERY family. From these every-day activities, mothers can expect, over time, what their children will do and how they react in certain situations.

Maybe the "instinct" in maternal instinct isn't really the best word in all cases. Maybe it is maternal understanding, along with the inherited female characteristics. But there is something there.

Bushism of the day:
"Coalition forces have encountered serious violence in some areas of Iraq. Our military commanders report that this violence is being insticated by three groups." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 13, 2004

Well, I sent her an email and it seems like she did not completely understand me, so here it goes.

I don't believe in "maternal instinct". There is much scientific evidence (after all of this blabber) that I've found, but obviously nothing as good as an actual psychology book.

From my experience in society, there does seem to be a learned parental response. There is nothing that mothers have that fathers do not. There is nothing a birth mother has over the foster parent. And still there are the types of mothers that would obviously disprove any claim of the reality of a 'maternal instinct', such as abusive mothers.

I believe there is nothing such as 'instinct' that would support mothers and mothers alone possessing it, let alone the instinct itself. It is more of a learned response. The child cries; the mother does not instantly know what it is crying about, but eventually any parent is able to identify why it might be crying.

Here are a few quotations:

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Harlow was attempting to see whether in the absence of any experience of being cared for by another, would they be able to care for their own young? Was ‘maternal instinct’ going to be in evidence? The results were chilling and the newborn baby monkeys suffered terribly (see Blum 2003, p. 217). Harlow had demonstrated that the maternal instinct is either a misnomer or needs a bit of experience to permit its developmental unfolding.

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Found here

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It seems very unlikely that the human animal is in process of acquiring new instincts; certainly not such complex ones as the less critical psychologists attribute to him. There are a number of significant facts which contradict such an assumption. In the first place, the mathematical laws of chance are against it. An instinct as complex as the "maternal" or "gregarious" or "intellectual" instinct, involving as it would in the aggregate some millions of neural connections or processes (for there must be at least as many neural dispositions for each of these class terms or "instincts" as there are ways or combinations of ways in which each of the groups of functions represented by these terms may be carried on), would appear as a spontaneous mutation (never, of course, as inheritance of acquired traits), with just the proper organization to fit the requirements of the environment of that particular time and the place, in some highly fortunate individual, only once in an age.

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Found here

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…The Marxist trick is to shift the definition of nature along the range until it means virtually the same as instinct. At that point; the Marxist can say nature is an … cruel or indifferent to their children, the idea of a maternal instinct as being natural to women must be rejected.

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Found here

I knew that, which is why I thought she was implying something about my mom. Oh wait, I'm sure of it. Negative? Probably, but I'll let her explain herself first. And if I don't see an answer by the next time I log in, I'll be sending a NOISEmail anyway.

Happy Holidays

Someone should just start a war of the sexes thread...

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Originally posted by Meagan87:

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Has anyone considered the Sexual Harrasment trojan horse that men face?

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What the heck? Since when did this become a "my gender is better than yours" thread???

Also, maybe there are no girls willing to debate it because some girls (like myself) have better things ot do on Christmas Eve than debate with you...see you on Boxing Day (the 26th!)!

For everyone who cares...have a wonderful Christmas, or a wonderful December 25! (depending on how you choose to celebrate the day...)

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Don't sing it, bring it

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Has anyone considered the Sexual Harrasment trojan horse that men face?

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What the heck? Since when did this become a "my gender is better than yours" thread???

Also, maybe there are no girls willing to debate it because some girls (like myself) have better things ot do on Christmas Eve than debate with you...see you on Boxing Day (the 26th!)!

For everyone who cares...have a wonderful Christmas, or a wonderful December 25! (depending on how you choose to celebrate the day...)

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What are you talking about? I have a mom, thanks. Are you implying that my mom isn't a good one? And why are you comparing me to Bush?

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She's commenting on the maternal instinct comment.