Well, Christianity promotes "spreading the word of Jesus" ie going into third world countries saying "your religion is wrong!" and then showing them the "way."
whateverr the only thing i hate about islam is the how the women are treated with their damn clothes and "coverings" bunch of bs if you ask me. then again i also dislike christianity because well women are not considered equals there either.
sigh. the only thing that promotes terrorism is hate and misunderstanding, why does everyone hate each other so much? why can't we just go "ahh f*ck it" and do whatever we do and just be chill.
goodness i probably sound like i'm some sort of drugged out hippie all the time. like all "lets just go chillax" lmao.
So you don’t like the US foreign policy. Why? Because America confronts Islamic Radicalism around the world? If you look at who the us has fought against you evil find a list of evil groups and people. The US has had a history of fighting evil around the world. Also the actions of the US don’t line up with the theory that the US is just out to rule the world. If this was the case we would be conquering nations, not liberating them.
actually you will find they fought against ideologies they thought threatened a US dominated model of the world. Communism being the main example, dragged through the mud by American propoganda to the point the very notion of state criticism could be met with accusations of communism sympathy. The fact of the matter is America has a history of fighting to protect its interests and nobody elses.
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As for human rights whose definition of human rights are you using? Look at who is on the UN human rights committees. Countries such as China, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, Cuba, Sira Lanka, Nigeria, and Egypt. These are some of the worst human rights violators and yet they are dealing with defining human rights violation, is it any surprise that according to them the worst human right violators are the US and Israel.
To look at the prisons these people are not solders they are terrorists, and as such the Geneva laws don’t apply to them. Also it is perfectly acceptable to use coerced interrogation to gain intelligence from these terrorists to save lives. These prisons are necessary institutions to delay with the horrible people. We should not me more concerned with the “rights” of these terrorists, and then we are fighting these terrorists.
I'm using my own sense of morality. Actually.
Also, they are SUSPECTED terrorists, why have no charges been brought to the majority? why have most been rotting there for years with no charges held to them?
All evidence obtained via torture is discreditable, if the US is indeed torturing its enemies then how can they possibly uphold an ideal of superior moral character? how have so many Americans been brainwashed into believing that a blatant disregard for human rights is in some way protecting their liberty? wake up.
Imagine, a foreign force invades the US with a differing ideology who is claiming to have a higher morality. Would the young men of the US not fight to protect what they believe to be right? should they then be imprisoned on charges of terrorism? those in Guantanamo are mostly men who stood up to the invaders of their land and were labelled terrorists. They are the same men who fought the Russians with US support....were they not terrorists then? the US certinely didn't think so.
'it's better to have your ministers inside the tent pissing out than outside, pissing in'
I think that sphinx will also be clarifying this so I won’t go into as much detail, but this is a false claim, the actions and life of Mohamed are very important to many sects of Islamic beliefs, and you can’t just separate Muhammad from Islam.
I meant it more that his life wasn't as important as Jesus' life is to Christianity. I mean, Christianity is all about Jesus. In Islam, Muhammad was just a prophet, albeit an important one. Yes he's important but not as important.
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And if you do look at it from that perspective, you will see that the human creator of Christianity lived a servants life, and taught love, and allowed him self to be killed, and you will se the human creator of Islam to be a figure that changes his positions, and who was also often a very war like figure.
Yes, and you'll also see that pacifism got Jesus killed, while Muhammad died of natural causes. Being warlike isn't always a bad thing, especially considering the area Islam originated in. Tribal warfare doesn't go away overnight. If Muhammad had taken the road of extreme pacifism like Jesus did, he'd have been dead shortly after he began spreading his message.
What the hell are you talking about? Huge terrorism problem? Are you insane? The 'terrorist problem' that you are talking about was a group of about thirty people. Hardly huge.
I Am talking about the constant stream of terror threats that are broken up, I'm talking about the thousands of British Muslims that are rapidly becoming extremists. If you want an example of Muslim extremism in Europe, look at what happened with the Danish cartoon riots.
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Many academic theologians, i.e. those who have put in intensive study at the best universities world wide, declare the God of Islam and the God of Christianity and Judaism to have the same basic root.
Yes they do have similar roots, but they are certainly not the same. My goal is to point out the truth in regards to Islam. Islam is a very sensitive topic that not many people are willing to address. I believe that Islam is a flawed religion, and that the followers of Islam need to be able to take a critical look at this religion. Unfortunately in many areas it is punishable by death to leave Islam. They have set up a system to stop people from leaving Islam, and people wonder why Islam is growing so fast.
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It is important that we respect each others faith, and declaiming Islam to be false on a thread aimed at discussing Islam's relevence to terrorism is clearly a mistake of board; you want spirituality.
It is important to respect, but that does not mean you can’t confront these beliefs. Because I believe that Islam is a false religion I believe that I need to try to show this to other people. Also people attack Christianity all the time on youth noise and you never seem to get upset.
Is there a thread about the validity of Islam?
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Who says that a good man cannot be mad?
Ah, but do you want to fallow the example of a mad man, can a mad man be a good teacher. Muslims believe that he was a profit, they don’t believe that he was insane, so the question is if he is a profit, who do they ignore his claims to divinity.
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Hopefully that's clear, although I have a sinking suspicion we're still not on the same level here...
No, I will go with that. In one path you have the freedom to make the choice, and in the other the test is being forced on you, you have to Choose. This ties in to the point I was making, in one instance you are free, in the other, you are being held, and forced to make choices against your will. This is why the threat of hell does not constitute a forced conversion, but having a Gun to your head does. And really it would be a forced choice no matter who was forcing the decision, who is behind the gun does not determine if it is or is not a forced conversion.
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You're looking at it from a Christian standpoint which means you'll never accept the Muslim idea of God, since it denies the divinity of Jesus.
You just confirmed my point that the Christians and the Muslims have different ideas of God. I have considered different religion; I went with Christianity, because I feel that this is the only true religion, and because I was not convinced that any other religion that I looked at was true. But the Christian and the Muslim definition of God are not the same, so we can’t be worshiping the same entity. I worship a trinity that includes Jesus, Muslims do not.
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So, two irreconcilable views. In one, the Christians are the aggressors, and in the other, the Muslims are. Now, my interest in the Crusades are purely historical, so I will stay out of any argument regarding the justification of them.
Okay so from a purely historical point of view both sides were aggressive, at different points of the conflict. Again I never said that there was no aggression from the Christian side, I actually disagree with a lot that the crusaders did, but I was stating that the Christians weren’t the only aggressors. Both sides did bad things during that conflict and neither side should claim that they are free from all blame.
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From a Muslim view, Muhammad was not the creator of Islam; he was just another Muslim like anyone else, with the added bonus of being the Prophet. His actions meant nothing, really, since they weren't supposed to follow him; they were supposed to follow the Qu'ran. Islam is not based at all on the actions of Muhammad. If anything, it's based on his words, but that's only if you think the Qu'ran was not divinely inspired.
No, Wrong. I think that sphinx will also be clarifying this so I won’t go into as much detail, but this is a false claim, the actions and life of Mohamed are very important to many sects of Islamic beliefs, and you can’t just separate Muhammad from Islam. From a historical point of view, Mohamed was the founder of Islam, and the one who communicated the teachings of god. Mohamed also served as a model for other Muslims, so many Muslims look to follow the example of Muhammad.
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unless you're looking at both religions skeptically (i.e. you consider Jesus to be the human creator of Christianity and you consider Muhammad to be the human creator of Islam).
And if you do look at it from that perspective, you will see that the human creator of Christianity lived a servants life, and taught love, and allowed him self to be killed, and you will se the human creator of Islam to be a figure that changes his positions, and who was also often a very war like figure.
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I'm not going to read through that thoroughly offensive website to find this so called "proof".
So your only response is that the site is offensive. Well most of the information on that site was either from the Koran, or was historical facts about Islam.
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We agree on the basics. We are worshipping the God who created us and the God who will judge us on judgement day
That is not enough. Muslims and Christians have completely contradictory beliefs about God. Christians believe that Jesus is God, Muslims do not because of this we do not worship the same God. Jesus is the only way to God; this is a fundamental Christian belief. I relay don’t know how to make this any more clear.
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I've always considered religion as the motivation for living a certain lifestyle, which, in both Islam and Christianity, is a good, honest, charitable, modest (etc) existence.
Christianity is not all about living a certain life style. The product of following Christ will lead to a certain life style but that is not the main focus of Christianity. Christianity is focused on believing in God and doing his will for your life. It’s about a relationship, not a list of do and don’ts. Islam is basically a close imitating of Judaism. But that is the tactic of Satan to deceive people by setting up things that are almost true, but that still lead people away from what really is true.
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Muslims don't believe that Jesus ever claimed to be divine.
Jesus claimed multiple times to be divine. You can look at his words that are recorded by roman, Jews, and Christians that show that he did claim to be divine. This is not really a disputable fact. Islam teaches that Jesus was not divine because they want to have Jesus as another profit. But Islam has a history of changing history and teaching lies. For example many Muslims don’t believe the historical facts about the Holocaust. They are taught that the Holocaust never happened.
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We believe he was a prophet who's message was changed after his time on earth, something that has happened with most of the prophets in history
So do the messages from your god change? If so then is your god perfect and how can you be sure that you are doing the will of your god.
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Ok first off, that's horrible and not at all what Islam is about.
So both instances are bad, we both agree, the point that we disagree on is the link to Islam. Well in both instances the perpetrators of these actions point to verses from the Koran to support their actions, so I don’t see how you can say that there is not a tie to Islam.
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No, if you claim a fact you back it up with non-biased evidence in the form of links. In other words I will reitterate my statement: I do not have to prove they were fabricated, that is not my prerogative, it is your job to prove it correct.
I did provide multiple links; read my posts before you go demanding evidence. I already provided the links, go back and look at them.
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And as an athiest I believe Christianity is leading a similar number astray.
So? You are entitled to you belief just as I am entitled to mine. The point is a debate on whether Islam is a true or not is just as valid, and reasonable as a debate on whether or not Christianity is a true religion.
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You should look up 'the tragedy of American foreign policy'. In a similar fashion to the Roman empire the US is deluded in the belief its values are superior to those of others.
So you don’t like the US foreign policy. Why? Because America confronts Islamic Radicalism around the world? If you look at who the us has fought against you evil find a list of evil groups and people. The US has had a history of fighting evil around the world. Also the actions of the US don’t line up with the theory that the US is just out to rule the world. If this was the case we would be conquering nations, not liberating them.
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Assissting other nations? or creating a better environment for which the US can flourish?
We do assist countries. You cans se many examples, such as Korea, Japan, Europe, and countries in South America and Africa where we have, of have had, reconstruction, and humanitarian missions to help these countries.
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Upholding human rights? Guantanamo Bay, Abu-Ghraib, not to mention the highly likey use of torture to extract information from suspecte US enemies. The comments of Cheney over waterboarding especially horrifying.
As for human rights whose definition of human rights are you using? Look at who is on the UN human rights committees. Countries such as China, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, Cuba, Sira Lanka, Nigeria, and Egypt. These are some of the worst human rights violators and yet they are dealing with defining human rights violation, is it any surprise that according to them the worst human right violators are the US and Israel.
To look at the prisons these people are not solders they are terrorists, and as such the Geneva laws don’t apply to them. Also it is perfectly acceptable to use coerced interrogation to gain intelligence from these terrorists to save lives. These prisons are necessary institutions to delay with the horrible people. We should not me more concerned with the “rights” of these terrorists, and then we are fighting these terrorists.
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Actually...all the crusaders were Christian, aggression aimed not only towards Muslims but to Pagans across the Baltic and beyond.
Let me clarify once again, I am not saying that the crusaders were not at fault. All I was saying is that the Muslims were not faultless doing the incident, and that we need to not pot all the blame for the crusades on the Christian, and forget the part that the Muslims had to play in the violence.
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then I can't be worshiping the same God as you neph because I hold different views on who God is and the nature of God,
If you don’t believe that Jesus is God, then you don’t believe in the same God that I do. My point was that the belief in the divinity of Christ is foundational to Christianity, and you can’t say that you worship the same God as the Christians if you don’t believe that Jesus was God.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein
Christians and Muslims can’t be worshiping the same God, because we have to different views on who God is.
then I can't be worshiping the same God as you neph because I hold different views on who God is and the nature of God, This in spite of my overall christian (roman-catholic to get specific) faith. Ah well I suppose I am only a godless heathen because I don't have the same ideas about God as you
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
But there is proof. Several major news organizations have covered this story, so you are saying that they are lying, or making this up. Why should I believe you, what justification do you have for this claim, or are you saying that you are more credible then major international news organizations.
No, if you claim a fact you back it up with non-biased evidence in the form of links. This is how debate and science works. I can claim anything is false unless sufficient evidence is provided in support of your idea. In other words I will reitterate my statement: I do not have to prove they were fabricated, that is not my prerogative, it is your job to prove it correct.
Is this so hard to understand?
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And there is a huge terrorist problem in England now. I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I am saying that I think Islam is a fundamentally flawed religion that destroys many good people. As a Christian I believe that Islam is a false religion that is leading over 1 billion people astray.
And as an athiest I believe Christianity is leading a similar number astray. A matter of opinion?
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Here we go again, America the evil empire. Why is America an evil empire? If we are an evil empire why have we not taken control of the world, and why do we pump billions of dollars into other countries to help them? Why do we assist countries all around the world, and uphold human rights, if we are an evil empire? Really al this evil America stuff is a bunch of crap that really does not fit with the facts at all.
You should look up 'the tragedy of American foreign policy'. In a similar fashion to the Roman empire the US is deluded in the belief its values are superior to those of others. In this belief countless interventions and invasions have occured carried out in the belief that if American democracy can be spread, then a world order will arise dominated by America and American values, not to mention the believed side affect of American capitalism (a great misconception that these go hand in hand), which will in turn line the pockets of the powerful in the US.
Assissting other nations? or creating a better environment for which the US can flourish?
Upholding human rights? Guantanamo Bay, Abu-Ghraib, not to mention the highly likey use of torture to extract information from suspecte US enemies. The comments of Cheney over waterboarding especially horrifying.
Have you not noticed your governments attempts to justify such institutions? Guantanamo bay is by all means a concntration camp, no different from the Gulags of Siberia. How can you justify it and still uphold human rights?
And as my final point, occupying and annexing land outright is not the only form of imperialism.
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I never said that they weren’t Christian acts; I simply said that the crusades were not just an instance of Christian aggression. Not all of the parties involved were Christian, not even all of the crusaders were Christian. So it is incorrect to say that the crusades were simply an example of Christian aggression.
Actually...all the crusaders were Christian, aggression aimed not only towards Muslims but to Pagans across the Baltic and beyond.
I would also like to point out that during one Christian crusade, the Crusaders decided to stp of at Constantinople (who had split from the catholic church) and ransack and pillage the entire city. Infact if one is lucky enough to go to Aya Sofya in Istanbul today, some of the damage can still be seen.
'it's better to have your ministers inside the tent pissing out than outside, pissing in'
I'm not going to read through that thoroughly offensive website to find this so called "proof".
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Christians and Muslims can’t be worshiping the same God, because we have to different views on who God is.
We agree on the basics. We are worshipping the God who created us and the God who will judge us on judgement day
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a belief in the divinity in Christ is foundational to Christianity. Christianity would not be a religion without Jesus.
I've always considered religion as the motivation for living a certain lifestyle, which, in both Islam and Christianity, is a good, honest, charitable, modest (etc) existence. No, our religions are not that same, but if you followed a true Muslim and a true Christian around for a day you'd see that they both have the same values and, besides the manor of dress or prayer, they are exactly the same. I don't think being a good person has much to do with God or Jesus at all; yes, they are your motivation but it is us up to you to decide how you are going to live and in both religions, the divine power is encouraging you to act the same. So the religions are basically the same if you look at the actions of its followers.
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How can Jesus be a good man, he claimed o be divine.
Muslims don't believe that Jesus ever claimed to be divine. It was his disciples who wrote the Old Testament, correct? Sometime after his "death" (btw, we don't really believe he DIED either lol), the hearsay about the many miracles he performed must have gotten bigger and bigger and somehow the image got skewed until he was believed to be divine. We believe he was a prophet who's message was changed after his time on earth, something that has happened with most of the prophets in history.
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Here’s two links to news articles about the girls who were beheaded Here’s two links about the Muslim (Palestinian) children taught to blow themselves up.
Ok first off, that's horrible and not at all what Islam is about. Indonesia, I know nothing about and I'm not going to pretend to understand the situation there. That article was pretty old so I hope things have gotten better since then. In Palestine, what makes me so sad about these kids is that people are using them for political reasons and telling them that it's for religion. Personally, I don't think it's wrong to teach them how to operate a weapon since they do live in a warzone, but they are too young to have ideas like that about heaven and hell drilled into their heads.
And i have to go, so I will continue you this later. Oh, but clpo said something about Islam being based on the Quran and not Mohammad's life but it IS actually based on both, in some sects of Islam more than others, but his life and actions are significant. I'll write more later.
~*The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true.
But would it be a free choice. No! I am being forced to make a life and death choice, while under coercion.
Okay, now I think I understand the confusion. Yes, you are forced to make a choice, but the choice is yours to make freely. So, the freedom lies in what path you take, which I think is the issue here. It's like taking a multiple choice test. You have to answer the questions, but it's your choice whether you pick A, B, or C. You don't have a choice to make a choice, but you have a choice in what choice you make. (That probably make no sense, but neither does this whole debate.)
Hopefully that's clear, although I have a sinking suspicion we're still not on the same level here...
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If you reject the divinity of Christ you reject the God of the bible. Jesus is part of God.
You're looking at it from a Christian standpoint which means you'll never accept the Muslim idea of God, since it denies the divinity of Jesus. I don't mean to offend, but you'll never be open-minded enough to consider the idea that Jesus might not have been divine. As such, it's a bit fruitless to keep arguing the point. We'll simply have to agree to disagree (especially since I neither believe Jesus to be divine nor believe Muhammad to be the prophet of God).
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I simply said that the crusades were not just an instance of Christian aggression. Not all of the parties involved were Christian, not even all of the crusaders were Christian.
It's a question of point of view, isn't it? From the Muslim view, their capture of the remnants of the Byzantine Empire (including Jerusalem, a Muslim holy city) was justified in that they were on a mission from God to establish a worldwide Muslim caliphate. From that point of view, the Crusades were indeed Christian aggression, since they were denying the Muslims the ability to complete their God-given mission to convert the world.
From a Christian standpoint, such as the one you've firmly rooted yourself in, the Muslims were the aggressors, when they conquered much of the Near East and took control of Jerusalem, which is also a Christian holy city. From this stance, the Crusades were justified in retaliation for the capture of Jerusalem and the rest of the Holy Land. Not only that, but the Muslims were barbaric pagans who were out to kill Christians at any cost (a wholly inaccurate view, but rather popular at the time).
So, two irreconcilable views. In one, the Christians are the aggressors, and in the other, the Muslims are. Now, my interest in the Crusades are purely historical, so I will stay out of any argument regarding the justification of them. I'll leave that to people who actually have a side in that debate (I find fighting over a single city rather petty, all things considered).
Also, I have something to say regarding the contrast between the relative passiveness of Jesus and the aggressiveness of Muhammad. Now, Islam makes no claim that Muhammad was divine. In fact, he was merely human. If the claims of Islam are considered to be true, then Muhammad received messages from God through an angel, all of which combined make up the Qu'ran. Furthermore, Muhammad was told to spread these messages throughout the world. Tough job, but not the first time this sort of thing has happened.
Anyways, aside from being a prophet, Muhammad was nothing more. He was still a human. So, any claim that he was warlike is rather pointless since he not only came from a warlike background (his first converts were from warring Arab tribes), but also had no compunctions about carrying on that kind of life. In order to understand Muhammad's actions, one must realize that he didn't kill wantonly (as is a common misconception). He killed because he needed to, generally in defense of his and his peoples' way of life. Beheading captured enemies? That was something his people had done for ages before he was even born. You don't get rid of something like that overnight. From a Muslim view, Muhammad was not the creator of Islam; he was just another Muslim like anyone else, with the added bonus of being the Prophet. His actions meant nothing, really, since they weren't supposed to follow him; they were supposed to follow the Qu'ran. Islam is not based at all on the actions of Muhammad. If anything, it's based on his words, but that's only if you think the Qu'ran was not divinely inspired.
Christianity, on the other hand, is indeed based on the actions of Jesus. Why? Well, because the Christian claim is that Jesus was God incarnate. Of course his actions mattered. If Christianity's claims are true, Jesus was divine, he was Christ, and he was sent to establish a new church on Earth. Contrast that with Islam and you'll see that comparing Jesus and Muhammad doesn't quite work, unless you're looking at both religions skeptically (i.e. you consider Jesus to be the human creator of Christianity and you consider Muhammad to be the human creator of Islam).
And there is a huge terrorist problem in England now. I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I am saying that I think Islam is a fundamentally flawed religion that destroys many good people. As a Christian I believe that Islam is a false religion that is leading over 1 billion people astray.
What the hell are you talking about? Huge terrorism problem? Are you insane? The 'terrorist problem' that you are talking about was a group of about thirty people. Hardly huge.
I think that what you are doing by claiming Islam is a 'false religion' is not only setting your religion back by about fifty years but is actually causing a large amount of anger on the behalf of others on this site, something as a Christian you should be against. Many academic theologians, i.e. those who have put in intensive study at the best universities world wide, declare the God of Islam and the God of Christianity and Judaism to have the same basic root. The words are the same, the meaning is the same and the historical background is the same. Presumably you know your Bible, so I won't need to point out the fact that Ishmael was Abrahamic too.
It is important that we respect each others faith, and declaiming Islam to be false on a thread aimed at discussing Islam's relevence to terrorism is clearly a mistake of board; you want spirituality.
On a more calm note:
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How can Jesus be a good man, he claimed o be divine. If he was not divine he would not be a good example because he would either have to be a liar, or insane.
Who says that a good man cannot be mad? Admittedly lying isn't so good, but Machiavelli (sp?) would say that it was completely fine in Jesus' position as king of the Jews.
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
What I am saying is that wars in the history of Islam do not support the theory that Islam promotes terrorism,
First of all it would support the idea that Islam is not a religion of peace but a religion of violence. Then some Muslims could take that support for violence and instead of applying it to war apply it to terrorism. Secondly there are several acts of Muhammad, such as beheading prisoners that are copied by terrorists today.
completely disagree about the Christian and Muslim God being different entities,
How could they be the same? The bible says that God is a trinity figure, Islam denies this. The bible says that Jesus was divine; Islam also denies that, because of this Christians and Muslims can’t be worshiping the same God, because we have to different views on who God is.
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What you're forgetting is that our religions are basically exactly the same, differing only when it comes to Jesus Christ, so the general tone of the faith is very similar and it encourages people to have the same morals and values.
Our religions are not almost the same, Christianity and Islam differs on several important points; it is more than the belief in Christ. Also you have to recognize that a belief in the divinity in Christ is foundational to Christianity. Christianity would not be a religion without Jesus.
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Plus Jesus (pbuh) was a great man and a great example.
How can Jesus be a good man, he claimed o be divine. If he was not divine he would not be a good example because he would either have to be a liar, or insane.
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No, sorry, if you can provide me with a date and/or country, it would be a lot more credible.
Do you really not see that you are doing the exact same thing with Muslims, digging through our history for anything less than perfect to try to use to justify your hatred?
I think that you look at the life of Muhammad and actually take a critical look at your religion; you will find some interesting things. I don’t hate Muslims, or any other people, (except for possibly the Westboro Baptists); however I do believe that you are going down the wrong path. It is because I think that I have found the truth that I want to tell others. So I'm not trying to provide reasons for hating Muslims, instead I am attempting to expose the truth about Islam, which again I consider to be a false religion.
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tell me which millions of people are waging Jihad on America? the insurgency in Iraq doesn't count, they're fighting a power struggle and an occupation. Al-Qaeda does not number in the millions, neither does the Taliban who can barely spread their fighting beyond southern Afghanistan. So where are these millions who are fighting Jihad against America?
Most of the insurgency in Iraq does count they see it as an opportunity to fight a Christian force even though the Christian force is there to help them. There are more terrorist groups then just Al- Qaeda and the Taliban. Also I did not say that all these people were active terrorist, there are millions who simply support the terrorists actions and think of them as hero’s.
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don't have to prove they were fabricated, because no evidence was provided for its truth to begin with.
But there is proof. Several major news organizations have covered this story, so you are saying that they are lying, or making this up. Why should I believe you, what justification do you have for this claim, or are you saying that you are more credible then major international news organizations.
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am British, born and bread. Yet I live in a Muslim country now, which is liberal, democratic and peace-loving. There is 70million people here...a large portion of an even larger number of Muslims around the world who are not devoted to terrorism.
And there is a huge terrorist problem in England now. I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I am saying that I think Islam is a fundamentally flawed religion that destroys many good people. As a Christian I believe that Islam is a false religion that is leading over 1 billion people astray.
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well said. America paints a very good picture of a modern day evil empire.
Here we go again, America the evil empire. Why is America an evil empire? If we are an evil empire why have we not taken control of the world, and why do we pump billions of dollars into other countries to help them? Why do we assist countries all around the world, and uphold human rights, if we are an evil empire? Really al this evil America stuff is a bunch of crap that really does not fit with the facts at all.
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Let's go back to the part where you choose to spit in their face and get shot.
Which would be the choice that I would take. But would it be a free choice. No! I am being forced to make a life and death choice, while under coercion. I am being held against my will with a gun to my head. I have a choice, but it is not a free choice, why can’t you get that.
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They don't reject the God of Christianity. They just reject that Jesus was divine. If you take Jesus out of the trinity (by saying he was mortal) and assume the Holy Spirit is just, well, some superfluous name for God's influence, then what's left is exactly the same.
If you reject the divinity of Christ you reject the God of the bible. Jesus is part of God. Jesus said in the bible “I am the way, the truth and the light no man comes to the father except threw me.” So to say if you take Jesus out of the picture is a false assumption, because according to Christian beliefs you can’t take Jesus out of the picture. Besides Islam also denies a multi identity God, so that means they also don’t believe in the Holy Spirit. The God of the Bible is a trinity figure, not the figure that the Muslims worship, so stop trying to say that they are the same, because they are not. A belief that they are the same, would clearly contradict the teachings of Islam and Christianity.
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But that's not the issue here, is it? It's not about the threat. It's about the choice. I don't know where you got the threat bit from.
It is not about the choice, it is about what type of choice you have. To go back to the example of hell, you have more than two options. The Christian say believe in God or go to hell, you say I have a third option, how about I don’t believe in hell, and walk away. The Christian can’t send you to hell; he can’t even make you listen to him. You are still in control of the choices, and you are not being held against your will, and you are not under coercion. You are free.
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If this is the case, then why is the Old Testament even part of the Christian Bible? I mean, I can understand leaving in the bits about prophecy, but why bother keeping Leviticus? Or Numbers? What good has Numbers ever done any Christian?
The Old Testament is in the bible because it is just that, it is the Old Testament, upon which the New Testament builds.
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Whoa, whoa. The Crusades (under that name) were most certainly Christian acts.
I never said that they weren’t Christian acts; I simply said that the crusades were not just an instance of Christian aggression. Not all of the parties involved were Christian, not even all of the crusaders were Christian. So it is incorrect to say that the crusades were simply an example of Christian aggression.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein
Just to add to the whole choice thing, a quote that I found on the website of the ethics page of the University of San Diego:
'The Qur'an repeatedly refers to God as compassionate and just. It also says that "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256): submission to God must be freely chosen, not forced (Ali). The Qur'an urges Muslims to use "beautiful preaching" to persuade people to accept Islam and to "argue nicely" with Jews and Christians who are seen as worshipping the same God as their own (16:125, 29:46, Firestone). This is probably the attitude of most Muslim people today. Jewish and Christian communities have often been tolerated and protected under Muslim rule.'
Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves. For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning, nor does a sudden shower last the entire day.
When someone puts a Gun to your head they then have to power to force you to do what ever they want. Why? because you cease to be in control, they are.
Let's go back to the part where you choose to spit in their face and get shot. No matter what the situation, you are still in control. The choices offered may not be very good ones, but you still have the ability to make a decision. The only way you wouldn't truly be in control is if someone paralyzed you and controlled you via remote or something like that, thus taking complete control of your body and denying your mind any say in what your body does. Any other situation still leaves you with a choice. In the hostage-type situation, you choose to accede to the demands and live or refuse to do what they want and get shot. You still have a choice. You don't have to convert, even if they're holding a gun to your head. I mean, if you believe they're wrong and that you're going to go to heaven even if you're not a member of that religion, it would probably be preferable to get shot than abandon your faith, wouldn't it?
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They are not the same God. Islam rejects the God of the Christians and Christianity rejects the god of Islam.
They don't reject the God of Christianity. They just reject that Jesus was divine. If you take Jesus out of the trinity (by saying he was mortal) and assume the Holy Spirit is just, well, some superfluous name for God's influence, then what's left is exactly the same. Well, at least in nature if not in deed. But even then we have a hard time pinning down just what God does and does not do. I mean, he allegedly told a couple of Mormons to kill a woman and her newborn, but I don't see you claiming the Mormon God is different than the Christian God? Deeds are a non-issue here, as I hope you agree.
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Basically you get to decide if the threat of hell is actually real. However you don’t get to decide if the threat of having a gun to your head is real.
But that's not the issue here, is it? It's not about the threat. It's about the choice. I don't know where you got the threat bit from.
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It is especially important to look at the New Testament, not the Old Testament, because the Old Testament is the Jewish people, and the New Testament is the beginning of the new covenant, and the forming of Christianity.
If this is the case, then why is the Old Testament even part of the Christian Bible? I mean, I can understand leaving in the bits about prophecy, but why bother keeping Leviticus? Or Numbers? What good has Numbers ever done any Christian?
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The crusades were not solely acts of Christian aggression, what warped version of history have you been taught?
Whoa, whoa. The Crusades (under that name) were most certainly Christian acts. Now, they were indeed in retaliation for things Muslims had done (namely, invaded and controlled Christian communities in and around the Holy Land; although it's interesting to note that they never did try to force those communities to abandon their faiths), but the Crusades were definitely planned by Christians, supported by Christians, and carried by Christians.
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