quote:

The Islamic Threat to Europe: By the Numbers
27/04/2007

Some things interest the media, others don't.

Since the fall of the USSR, the United States has sought another menace to designate as the ultimate evil, a world threat the Americans desperately need to take on. The 9/11 attacks gave them that enemy. And when the White House speaks, the media listens obediently.

Over the last number of years the "Islamic threat" has become one of the favourite issues for media coverage. It's all over the news - Muslim leaders pronouncing threats against the countries participating in occupying Muslim land.

While America is the Western country most succumbed to the fear of Islamism, things aren't much better in Europe. Its media is highly Americanised and thus eager to reiterate U.S. governmental positions towards the non-Western world. Islamic terrorism is subsequently a theme close to the hearts of European journalists as well.

Following this, you might think the journalists would be beside themselves with joy when the European Police Office (Europol) releases its first report on terrorism in the EU. I can assure you they weren't. In fact, to my best knowledge, not a single Swedish paper or news-channel has paid any attention to it whatsoever. I haven't seen it receiving much attention in other EU countries either (kudos to the EU observer for having the decency to report on it). The report is namely a grave disappointment for the anti-Islamic campaigners.

There were 498 incidents in eleven EU countries last year labelled as "terrorist attacks." The Basque separatist group ETA did best (136 terrorist attacks) and was responsible for the only deadly attack, killing two in Madrid. The remaining 497 fortunately cost no human lives.

How about the Islamic terrorists then? Considering the perpetual warnings in our daily papers, the findings in the Europol report is, to say the least, surprising. The truth is that Islamists only carried out ONE out of the 498 terrorist attacks in the European Union in 2006. Don't believe me? The entire report is available on Europol's website http://www.europol.europa.eu/publications/TESAT/TESAT2007.pdf

Had Islamic fundamentalists been behind a higher number of attacks - say 136 - it would have been front page news at every big daily. One attack is simply too few - it won't do if the image of an "Islamic threat" is to live on.

The Europol report devotes several pages to Islamist terrorism, despite the low number. Except for the one attack in Germany this group was responsible for (which, by the way, failed and resulted in no victims), also Denmark and the United Kingdom reported that Islamists plotted to carry out one attack in each country respectively (incidentally, all three countries are accessory to the illegal occupation of Iraq).

However, since these plans in both cases were exposed before they were set to work, they were not included among the 498. Either way, even after taking these plots into account, the report proves the genuine magnitude of Islamic terrorism in Europe - it's not exactly a huge threat.

If we look at the people arrested on suspicion of terrorism offences, the figures are rather disproportionate; about half of them arrested were Muslim. In plain English: Muslims are a group causing very little terrorism in Europe, while at the same time much more likely to be arrested on suspicion of it. The constant media coverage of Muslims being arrested creates the false image of a serious threat in order to benefit the imperialist world-view Washington wants us to adopt.

Meanwhile the Americans and their accomplices are carrying out genocide in Iraq. Clearly, something needs to be done about the media.

Those are the cold facts, I'd rather not disclose the source as many of you would simply disqualify the whole text based on it's origin. What you can do is fact check the Europol official report which I have conveniently highlighted. Nonetheless, if anyone want's to know where I got this ask and I'll post it with pleasure, although I believe it is unecessary as the provided figures speak for themselves.

quote:

If it is not Koranic then why is it strictly enforced by Sharia law? All over the Middle East it is required for women to where those head scarves, and veils.

Like I said, there is debate concerning the subject of exactly how much has to be covered, but what is widely accepted is that only the face and hands should be showing.

quote:

Okay, i understand if islamic women want to cover up, but then why is it that non-islam women have to do the same? why the hell do american or european or any other women have to cover up in their country.

There are very few places in the Middle East where it is required by law to dress like that. I'm pretty sure it's actually just Saudi Arabia and Iran (and previously Afghanistan), and I'm pretty sure that it's against Islam to force non-Muslims to wear hijab. In fact, I think I remember a verse in the Quran that says that Muslims should wear hijab to distinguish themselves from non-Muslims.

I don't know if I've had a Saudi Arabia rant in this topic yet, but they have completely distorted the Muslim religon and changed it into a sexist oppressive regime where men and women are segregated in every area and basically, everyone is treated like shit but if you have money you can buy your way out of anything. It's sad and it gives us a bad rep, but what can you do? I'm not really going to comment on Iran, I don't know anything about it besides that America's going to bomb it eventuallly. The point is, it's not a Muslim thing to force non-believers to wear it.

quote:

Most people don’t want to deal with problems or questions their religion. However I believe that if you look at Islam critically you will come to the conclusion that Islam is false.

I have looked critically at Islam, and I still believe in it. Not everyone is going to come to the same conclusions that you have, and no one in this lifetime can confirm that your conclusions are right. So please stop trying to convince people that their religion is false. Can we try to get back on topic please?

quote:

Do you have an unbiased source? If you do please tell me what it is. The stuff that is taught at Islamic schools and mosques is definitely not unbiased, for example they teach that the Holocaust is a myth.

How about an encyclopedia? And please don't presume to know about Muslim schools or mosques because you read a report about a few who have denied the holocaust. The only times you hear about history in a mosque is when discussing the prophet, his life, his companions lives etc. The only times you hear about politics are when discussing current events in the Muslim word. I have never heard a word mentioned in a mosque about the Holocaust and I don't expect I ever will. Besides, what you're saying is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I was saying you should get real sources to back you up with what you're saying about Islam.

quote:

It is not enough to follow without question.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that what random people who want to accuse Islam say about the Quran should not be your main source. You should read what people who have studied it say, people who are experts. And I don't necessarily mean Muslim scholars, there are many experts in the Quran that aren't Muslim. Why not look to their opinions?

quote:

It follows a prophet, Muhommed, that in his late 50's married a six year old girl and when she turned nine he had sex with her as man and wife. Where do you find free will for the little girl? She was molested by a pervert. Why couldn't he find a woman closer to his own age to marry? Please don't say that it is their culture because you'd be wrong.

Aisha was the daughter of one of the prophet's closest companions, Abu Bakir. Mohammad married her (after she reached puberty) to honor her father. All of his marriages (besides his first wife who he married before becoming a prophet) were with reason. I can't remember the details for every one exaclty so don't snap at me if I'm wrong, but among his wives was an old widow because she had no one to support her and a Jewish woman to illustrate that a man marrying outside the religion is allowed. Mohammad's marriages were largely to give us an example in what is allowed and what isn't in regards to marriage.

quote:

Muhommed, that in his late 50's married a six year old girl and when she turned nine he had sex with her as man and wife.

You're judging Muhammad by modern ideas of morality. However, at the time of Muhammad, marriage to a girl that young was nothing unusual. In fact, Aisha (the girl's name) was already betrothed to someone else before she married Muhammad. That man broke off the marriage, and then she married Muhammad. It should also be pointed out that her age is disputed. Some sources say she married him as young as five or six, while others say it was closer to 19.

Your critique of Islam is what's known as presentism, where you apply modern social mores to historical situations, where the social mores were different. It's a logical fallacy, and thus any argument based upon it does not stand up to criticism.

[quote]Nephilem, you make all of us Christians look bad. Honestly, quit embarrassing yourself and the rest of us.

Actually, Nephilem is correct and he is not making Christianity look bad at all. I am not embarrassed in the least by his comments. He is actually very well educated on this subject and you would be very wise to listen to him, you might learn something. Open your Bible and read, YouthVoice. Ask your pastor if Nephilem is right and he will tell you he is.

I encourage everyone to read both Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament tells the prophecy of Jesus Christ's coming and death. The New Testament has eyewitness accounts to the life Jesus Christ lived and what occurred after His death to further the Kingdom of God. Christians have been pursecuted for 2000 years by those who want to force their beliefs on the them. When Christians refused to bow down to other gods and renounce Jesus they were beheaded, fed to lions, dipped in oil and lit on fire to be used as human torches, as well as other horrific inhumane acts of violence. Jesus Christ was not a promoter of violence. He was brutally beaten for the sins of every human being on earth irregardless of whether or not they use the free will He gave them to love Him or not. God is not looking for religion. He's looking for a one-on-one relationship with each and every person.

Islam does not promote free will. It follows a prophet, Muhommed, that in his late 50's married a six year old girl and when she turned nine he had sex with her as man and wife. Where do you find free will for the little girl? She was molested by a pervert. Why couldn't he find a woman closer to his own age to marry? Please don't say that it is their culture because you'd be wrong. Child molestation is wrong in all cultures. Why would anyone want to follow the teachings of a child molester? Jesus Christ was completely without sin so He could be an example for us all. We all fall short of the glory of God, that is why Jesus died, because God knows we will never be perfect. We can NEVER be sin free. Christians KNOW we have salvation into the Kingdom of Heaven because we have excepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Like I stated before, in Islam there is NO guarantee of salvation for the Muslim. God's promises of salvation are in the Bible, i.e.; Acts 16:30-31, Acts 4:12, John 6:40, Psalm 25:5, Ephesians 2:4-5 & 8-9, Titus 2:11 & 13-14, Acts 10:43, Romans 10:13, Matthew 1:21, and John 3:16-17. The Koran does not give you any promises of salvation.

So,YouthVoice, instead of being embarrassed by Nephilem's statements, read the Bible - Old and New Testament - it's all in there. Also, let me suggest another good book, "Because They Hate" by Brigette Gabriel. She lived in the Middle East and when you read what she had to endure at the hands of people who hated her because she was a Christian you will begin to understand what Nephilem is talking about.

quote:

Yes he's important but not as important.

Okay the life of Muhammad was not as important to Islam as the life of Christ was to Christianity. The point is that Muhammad serves as a role model for many Muslims and the foundation of Islam, so his actions have a big impact on Muslims

quote:

If Muhammad had taken the road of extreme pacifism like Jesus did, he'd have been dead shortly after he began spreading his message.

Even if Muhammad’s actions were practical, he would still have been spreading violence. Basically don’t say that Muhammad was a peaceful man, because he was not. You can debate why he was violent and if his actions were justified, but it is important to realize that Muhammad’s life was filled with violence. Also this is not the picture that is often painted of Muhammad. Many people would have you think that Muhammad was an extremely peaceful man who wouldn’t hurt a fly.
As for the actions of Muhammad they were not all defensive. He was not just fighting to keep himself alive.

quote:

actually you will find they fought against ideologies they thought threatened a US dominated model of the world.

The US is not out to conquer the world, and time and time again we have fought those who are. Take WWII as an example. We could have taken over Europe and much of Asia after WWII and in fact we did have control over most of those countries at the close of the war, but then we liberated the countries and helped them rebuild. We did not conquer, but instead attacked the aggressor, and liberated and built countries. The once again there arose a force that wanted to conquer the world. A force that killed tens of millions of its own people, communism. Once again America sacrificed and kept the world free.
So you are wrong, America does have a history of defending its interests, and it also has a history of defending the interests of others.

quote:

Also, they are SUSPECTED terrorists, why have no charges been brought to the majority? why have most been rotting there for years with no charges held to them?

First of all they are terrorists, and they are setting up a military system to try these individuals.

quote:

All evidence obtained via torture is discreditable, if the US is indeed torturing its enemies then how can they possibly uphold an ideal of superior moral character?

It’s called coerced interrogation, not torture. There is a difference, and the US does not torture its prisoners. It is necessary to interrogate terrorists because they have information that can save innocent lives and they won’t talk unless they are coerced.

quote:

Would the young men of the US not fight to protect what they believe to be right? should they then be imprisoned on charges of terrorism?

You are assuming that these people are just freedom fighters that are out to protect there country, but this is not the case. These are terrorist groups that train to go to other countries and kill innocent people. Thankfully the US is taking the fight to them and that is why they are now on the defensive. Also if you look at these groups they still attack innocent people. They kill civilians in their country to cause destabilization.

quote:

Well, Christianity promotes "spreading the word of Jesus" ie going into third world countries saying "your religion is wrong!" and then showing them the "way."

So? Every religion that I know tries to tell more people about their religion.

quote:

then again i also dislike christianity because well women are not considered equals there either.

Women are considered equal in Christianity; they just have a different roll then the roll of the husband.

quote:

sigh. the only thing that promotes terrorism is hate and misunderstanding,

Wrong. A large amount of terrorism is founded in religious extremism.

quote:

Actually this is not really Koranic. The Koran only says that women should cover their heads, much like women should wear hats in Church

If it is not Koranic then why is it strictly enforced by Sharia law? All over the Middle East it is required for women to where those head scarves, and veils.

quote:

A utilitarian system, such as was used by the Victorians and appears to be what you are suggesting, can never protect the rights of any minority against the will of the pitchfork wielding mob.

What I am saying is that the US does not torture these terrorists. We interrogate them. They are killers and it is important to find what links they have to other killers so deaths can be avoided.

quote:

How do you know the will of Satan?

Satan is described in the bible as are many of his tactics. Other than that I am drawing on several books on the subject of spiritual warfare. Also you have to look at what this belief is causing. If the god of the bible is the only true God and the only way to him is threw Jesus, then all other religions would be a false path to God, and would keep us from him.

quote:

Islam will have radical groups, like all religions.

Yes Islam and other groups will have their radical groups the difference is that Muslim terrorists have support in the Koran for there actions.

quote:

there is no religion on this earth which promotes terrorism

Have you even read the holy books of all the worlds’ religions? How can you say that no religion supports terrorism if you haven’t looked at the doctrine of all the religions? And if you have studied all the worlds’ religions, you should see that Islam does have many aspects that support violence against several groups of people. One of the applications of this violence is terrorism.

quote:

It's offensive, and considering that you keep bringing up the cartoon riots, you should know exactly how offensive it is.

I understand that you take offence at the site. My point is that you take offence because you don’t want to acknowledge that side of Islam; you don’t what to believe that Islam has faults and problems. But if you are to examine your faith and test it, you will have to look at the points against your religion. You may not be interested in doing that. I did and I changed many of my previous views and ideas about religion. Most people don’t want to deal with problems or questions their religion. However I believe that if you look at Islam critically you will come to the conclusion that Islam is false.

As to the carton’s. People draw cartons that insult Christianity all the time. However when this happens you never see tens of thousand of Christians out on the street rioting.

quote:

You should really get your information from factual sites that are unbiased, because this is obviously not an evenhanded page.

Do you have an unbiased source? If you do please tell me what it is. The stuff that is taught at Islamic schools and mosques is definitely not unbiased, for example they teach that the Holocaust is a myth.

quote:

The Quran's verses are not meant to be interpreted one by one and ripped apart by anyone with an internet connection.

So are you saying that only special people can analyze the Koran correctly? If so then what good is the Koran to people? You may not by it because you don’t want to believe it. Examine Islam, se if what you are being taught is true, and then make a decision. It is not enough to follow without question.

quote:

So according to Christianity they're all going to hell, right? Or do you also believe that the message of God has slowly progressed?

The message of God has never changed. The death of Christ covered the sins of everyone, including those who had come before him. Before Jesus came people would offer sacrifices which would symbolize there acceptance of the sacrifice that Christ would make.

quote:

That is a very good point.

Again maybe Muhammad’s violence was justified, but that does not mean that he lived a life of peace. We never her that Islam is a religion with justified violence, we only here that Islam is a religion of peace. Call the life of Muhammad what it is not what you want it to be.

quote:

Women who choose Islam also choose to dress a certain way, but most of the people I know who cover their hair say they find it liberating to not be judged on their appearances, but just by who they are. They IS some debate in Islam about how much you actually have to cover, but it's widely agreed that it's everything but your face and hands.

This is not true of all Muslim women there are many Muslim women who do not want to were the full head scarves but are forced to. Some Muslim women may be fine with the head covering, but there are many who aren’t and they should have the freedom to chose.

quote:

The US government knows what it's doing is evil, if not it would be situated in the US for everyone to see.

The US is holding dangerous people that would strap on c-4 and blow them selves and schoolchildren up if they were released. These people are deranged killers, and it is impossible to reason with them. The US is not hiding the action at Guantanamo Bay which is why the media has been down there multiple times.

quote:

that's why it irritates me, they don't confine it to themselves they just spread it everywhere.

Exactly. In fact in many places Muslims want Sharia law enforced on Muslims and non Muslims. So your religion would not be a factor, you would have to abide by Islamic law. We are starting to see problems with this in Europe and America, where Muslims expect the countries to change to meet there life stile, and religious beliefs.

Okay, i understand if islamic women want to cover up, but then why is it that non-islam women have to do the same? why the hell do american or european or any other women have to cover up in their country.


how's this: they make us where their shit in their country so we should make them not wear it in our country.

that's why it irritates me, they don't confine it to themselves they just spread it everywhere.

I'm in the middle of exams right now and I really don't have time to reply to everything that I want to on this page, so I'm going to take a little break from it. Other topics don't require so much time and energy, plus they're not as depressing. So yeah, I probably won't respond for a while after this last post.

quote:

So your only response is that the site is offensive. Well most of the information on that site was either from the Koran, or was historical facts about Islam.

The opening page has a picture of a man in a turban weilding a sword with the caption "Believe it or else!". It's offensive, and considering that you keep bringing up the cartoon riots, you should know exactly how offensive it is. You should really get your information from factual sites that are unbiased, because this is obviously not an evenhanded page. And you can continue to give me sites that quote the Quran out of context and claim that it represents my religion, but you will continue to be wrong. The Quran's verses are not meant to be interpreted one by one and ripped apart by anyone with an internet connection. Just as you would have to have some sort of training to analyse Homer, you cannot just be some moron with a blog and consider yourself an expert on the Quran. I'm not buying it.

quote:

But Islam has a history of changing history and teaching lies...
So do the messages from your god change? If so then is your god perfect and how can you be sure that you are doing the will of your god.

Islam, in fact, has a history of staying exactly the same. The Quran is exactly the same as it was 1400 years ago, which is unique among holy books. Our only other source for religious material, quotes from Mohammad and comments on his life, were only accepted if they had a varifiable background.

We believe that religions slowly progressed, starting with Adam and leading up to Mohammad until the whole religion was delivered, and, since Mohammad was the last of the prophets, Islam would be the final word.
If you are a Christian, then you know all about Moses and how he split the sea and all that jazz, right? Now, Moses was a prophet, delivering the message of God, correct? He was in Islam anyway, so I'm assuming he was in Christianity. Now, all of those people who followed him (and followed the message of God), none of them accepted Jesus as their savior. So according to Christianity they're all going to hell, right? Or do you also believe that the message of God has slowly progressed?

quote:

Yes, and you'll also see that pacifism got Jesus killed, while Muhammad died of natural causes. Being warlike isn't always a bad thing, especially considering the area Islam originated in. Tribal warfare doesn't go away overnight. If Muhammad had taken the road of extreme pacifism like Jesus did, he'd have been dead shortly after he began spreading his message.

That is a very good point.

quote:

whateverr the only thing i hate about islam is the how the women are treated with their damn clothes and "coverings" bunch of bs if you ask me. then again i also dislike christianity because well women are not considered equals there either.

Women who choose Islam also choose to dress a certain way, but most of the people I know who cover their hair say they find it liberating to not be judged on their appearances, but just by who they are. They IS some debate in Islam about how much you actually have to cover, but it's widely agreed that it's everything but your face and hands. It's not just a cultural things, although different cultures do have different styles.

And I don't know how this conversation went to torturing at Guantanomo Bay, but holding people for years without charging them is unethical, and it leads to the torturing of inoccent people. The US government knows what it's doing is evil, if not it would be situated in the US for everyone to see.

Phew.

there is no religion on this earth which promotes terrorism

My opinion, is that I can put this very simply.

Islam will have radical groups, like all religions.
Christianity, has been no exception.

Or do I have to bring up the IRA?

So whats up here?
Is this one of those "lets pretend that muslims are not doing anything bad, lets pretend the only bad things they're responsible for is the 9/11 and london attacks, were all equal and the same comrade cos I said so not cos its true, Islam doesn't condone violence so therefore all the muslim rape, murder, robbery, invasions, damage to european societies (yes this decade), is just pretend" kind of threads?
Am I close?

quote:

We can't just all be chill because there is too much shit going on all the time and the rich western nations of which we are citizens are largely responsible for the roughness suffered at the other end of the spectrum. Being chill would be great if poverty and social inequality where non existant, but as long as there are unresolved problems and people continue to die and live in horrible conditions being chill will just be a convinient way of evading reality.

And its all the filthy capitalist imperialist west to blame! We are scum and we should hate our own guts!

Oh I do love commies. Wonderfull people who will make our society much better.

I often wonder what has caused the wests self-hatred, self-loathing, disire to destroy itself and declare itself the worst thing on earth.
My conclusion is this: the west has no where to go but down. The west has everything. Its citizens wallow in its decadence. The western society suffers from boredom, its at the top and has no where to go and nothing to do.
This page sounds fair too:
Bet you left-extremists will love this!

quote:

whateverr the only thing i hate about islam is the how the women are treated with their damn clothes and "coverings"

Actually this is not really Koranic. The Koran only says that women should cover their heads, much like women should wear hats in Church (if we go by the older traditions). The introduction of the full veil is a cultural thing that women choose to adopt to bring them closer to their culture.

quote:

it is perfectly acceptable to use coerced interrogation to gain intelligence from these terrorists to save lives.

Any ethicist will tell you that this is only the case for teleological systems of ethics, and these are not necessarily correct. A utilitarian system, such as was used by the Victorians and appears to be what you are suggesting, can never protect the rights of any minority against the will of the pitchfork wielding mob. So it is a bad way to govern a country.

quote:

But that is the tactic of Satan to deceive people by setting up things that are almost true, but that still lead people away from what really is true.

He knows the will of Satan! You all saw it, he declared that he knew how Statann went about doing things! Burn him!

Not really, but my point is that surely Satan is an angel and is as transedental as God himself? How do you know the will of Satan? How do you know that the Satan (the equivalent in Islam anyhow) is just leading you away from worshiping a real God into worshiping this puny mortal, around whom he has created a grand ideology? And maybe he just put himself in there to further confuse you into believeing your doing right. Maybe you are just being influenced by Mara. See my point?

quote:

goodness i probably sound like i'm some sort of drugged out hippie all the time.

Pass the tabs

We can't just all be chill because there is too much shit going on all the time and the rich western nations of which we are citizens are largely responsible for the roughness suffered at the other end of the spectrum. Being chill would be great if poverty and social inequality where non existant, but as long as there are unresolved problems and people continue to die and live in horrible conditions being chill will just be a convinient way of evading reality.

Well, Christianity promotes "spreading the word of Jesus" ie going into third world countries saying "your religion is wrong!" and then showing them the "way."

whateverr the only thing i hate about islam is the how the women are treated with their damn clothes and "coverings" bunch of bs if you ask me. then again i also dislike christianity because well women are not considered equals there either.

sigh. the only thing that promotes terrorism is hate and misunderstanding, why does everyone hate each other so much? why can't we just go "ahh f*ck it" and do whatever we do and just be chill.

goodness i probably sound like i'm some sort of drugged out hippie all the time. like all "lets just go chillax" lmao.

quote:

So you don’t like the US foreign policy. Why? Because America confronts Islamic Radicalism around the world? If you look at who the us has fought against you evil find a list of evil groups and people. The US has had a history of fighting evil around the world. Also the actions of the US don’t line up with the theory that the US is just out to rule the world. If this was the case we would be conquering nations, not liberating them.

actually you will find they fought against ideologies they thought threatened a US dominated model of the world. Communism being the main example, dragged through the mud by American propoganda to the point the very notion of state criticism could be met with accusations of communism sympathy. The fact of the matter is America has a history of fighting to protect its interests and nobody elses.

quote:

As for human rights whose definition of human rights are you using? Look at who is on the UN human rights committees. Countries such as China, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, Cuba, Sira Lanka, Nigeria, and Egypt. These are some of the worst human rights violators and yet they are dealing with defining human rights violation, is it any surprise that according to them the worst human right violators are the US and Israel.

To look at the prisons these people are not solders they are terrorists, and as such the Geneva laws don’t apply to them. Also it is perfectly acceptable to use coerced interrogation to gain intelligence from these terrorists to save lives. These prisons are necessary institutions to delay with the horrible people. We should not me more concerned with the “rights” of these terrorists, and then we are fighting these terrorists.

I'm using my own sense of morality. Actually.

Also, they are SUSPECTED terrorists, why have no charges been brought to the majority? why have most been rotting there for years with no charges held to them?

All evidence obtained via torture is discreditable, if the US is indeed torturing its enemies then how can they possibly uphold an ideal of superior moral character? how have so many Americans been brainwashed into believing that a blatant disregard for human rights is in some way protecting their liberty? wake up.

Imagine, a foreign force invades the US with a differing ideology who is claiming to have a higher morality. Would the young men of the US not fight to protect what they believe to be right? should they then be imprisoned on charges of terrorism? those in Guantanamo are mostly men who stood up to the invaders of their land and were labelled terrorists. They are the same men who fought the Russians with US support....were they not terrorists then? the US certinely didn't think so.

quote:

I think that sphinx will also be clarifying this so I won’t go into as much detail, but this is a false claim, the actions and life of Mohamed are very important to many sects of Islamic beliefs, and you can’t just separate Muhammad from Islam.

I meant it more that his life wasn't as important as Jesus' life is to Christianity. I mean, Christianity is all about Jesus. In Islam, Muhammad was just a prophet, albeit an important one. Yes he's important but not as important.

quote:

And if you do look at it from that perspective, you will see that the human creator of Christianity lived a servants life, and taught love, and allowed him self to be killed, and you will se the human creator of Islam to be a figure that changes his positions, and who was also often a very war like figure.

Yes, and you'll also see that pacifism got Jesus killed, while Muhammad died of natural causes. Being warlike isn't always a bad thing, especially considering the area Islam originated in. Tribal warfare doesn't go away overnight. If Muhammad had taken the road of extreme pacifism like Jesus did, he'd have been dead shortly after he began spreading his message.

quote:

What the hell are you talking about? Huge terrorism problem? Are you insane? The 'terrorist problem' that you are talking about was a group of about thirty people. Hardly huge.

I Am talking about the constant stream of terror threats that are broken up, I'm talking about the thousands of British Muslims that are rapidly becoming extremists. If you want an example of Muslim extremism in Europe, look at what happened with the Danish cartoon riots.

quote:

Many academic theologians, i.e. those who have put in intensive study at the best universities world wide, declare the God of Islam and the God of Christianity and Judaism to have the same basic root.

Yes they do have similar roots, but they are certainly not the same. My goal is to point out the truth in regards to Islam. Islam is a very sensitive topic that not many people are willing to address. I believe that Islam is a flawed religion, and that the followers of Islam need to be able to take a critical look at this religion. Unfortunately in many areas it is punishable by death to leave Islam. They have set up a system to stop people from leaving Islam, and people wonder why Islam is growing so fast.

quote:

It is important that we respect each others faith, and declaiming Islam to be false on a thread aimed at discussing Islam's relevence to terrorism is clearly a mistake of board; you want spirituality.

It is important to respect, but that does not mean you can’t confront these beliefs. Because I believe that Islam is a false religion I believe that I need to try to show this to other people. Also people attack Christianity all the time on youth noise and you never seem to get upset.

Is there a thread about the validity of Islam?

quote:

Who says that a good man cannot be mad?

Ah, but do you want to fallow the example of a mad man, can a mad man be a good teacher. Muslims believe that he was a profit, they don’t believe that he was insane, so the question is if he is a profit, who do they ignore his claims to divinity.

quote:

Hopefully that's clear, although I have a sinking suspicion we're still not on the same level here...

No, I will go with that. In one path you have the freedom to make the choice, and in the other the test is being forced on you, you have to Choose. This ties in to the point I was making, in one instance you are free, in the other, you are being held, and forced to make choices against your will. This is why the threat of hell does not constitute a forced conversion, but having a Gun to your head does. And really it would be a forced choice no matter who was forcing the decision, who is behind the gun does not determine if it is or is not a forced conversion.

quote:

You're looking at it from a Christian standpoint which means you'll never accept the Muslim idea of God, since it denies the divinity of Jesus.

You just confirmed my point that the Christians and the Muslims have different ideas of God. I have considered different religion; I went with Christianity, because I feel that this is the only true religion, and because I was not convinced that any other religion that I looked at was true. But the Christian and the Muslim definition of God are not the same, so we can’t be worshiping the same entity. I worship a trinity that includes Jesus, Muslims do not.

quote:

So, two irreconcilable views. In one, the Christians are the aggressors, and in the other, the Muslims are. Now, my interest in the Crusades are purely historical, so I will stay out of any argument regarding the justification of them.

Okay so from a purely historical point of view both sides were aggressive, at different points of the conflict. Again I never said that there was no aggression from the Christian side, I actually disagree with a lot that the crusaders did, but I was stating that the Christians weren’t the only aggressors. Both sides did bad things during that conflict and neither side should claim that they are free from all blame.

quote:

From a Muslim view, Muhammad was not the creator of Islam; he was just another Muslim like anyone else, with the added bonus of being the Prophet. His actions meant nothing, really, since they weren't supposed to follow him; they were supposed to follow the Qu'ran. Islam is not based at all on the actions of Muhammad. If anything, it's based on his words, but that's only if you think the Qu'ran was not divinely inspired.

No, Wrong. I think that sphinx will also be clarifying this so I won’t go into as much detail, but this is a false claim, the actions and life of Mohamed are very important to many sects of Islamic beliefs, and you can’t just separate Muhammad from Islam. From a historical point of view, Mohamed was the founder of Islam, and the one who communicated the teachings of god. Mohamed also served as a model for other Muslims, so many Muslims look to follow the example of Muhammad.

quote:

unless you're looking at both religions skeptically (i.e. you consider Jesus to be the human creator of Christianity and you consider Muhammad to be the human creator of Islam).

And if you do look at it from that perspective, you will see that the human creator of Christianity lived a servants life, and taught love, and allowed him self to be killed, and you will se the human creator of Islam to be a figure that changes his positions, and who was also often a very war like figure.

quote:

I'm not going to read through that thoroughly offensive website to find this so called "proof".

So your only response is that the site is offensive. Well most of the information on that site was either from the Koran, or was historical facts about Islam.

quote:

We agree on the basics. We are worshipping the God who created us and the God who will judge us on judgement day

That is not enough. Muslims and Christians have completely contradictory beliefs about God. Christians believe that Jesus is God, Muslims do not because of this we do not worship the same God. Jesus is the only way to God; this is a fundamental Christian belief. I relay don’t know how to make this any more clear.

quote:

I've always considered religion as the motivation for living a certain lifestyle, which, in both Islam and Christianity, is a good, honest, charitable, modest (etc) existence.

Christianity is not all about living a certain life style. The product of following Christ will lead to a certain life style but that is not the main focus of Christianity. Christianity is focused on believing in God and doing his will for your life. It’s about a relationship, not a list of do and don’ts. Islam is basically a close imitating of Judaism. But that is the tactic of Satan to deceive people by setting up things that are almost true, but that still lead people away from what really is true.

quote:

Muslims don't believe that Jesus ever claimed to be divine.

Jesus claimed multiple times to be divine. You can look at his words that are recorded by roman, Jews, and Christians that show that he did claim to be divine. This is not really a disputable fact. Islam teaches that Jesus was not divine because they want to have Jesus as another profit. But Islam has a history of changing history and teaching lies. For example many Muslims don’t believe the historical facts about the Holocaust. They are taught that the Holocaust never happened.

quote:

We believe he was a prophet who's message was changed after his time on earth, something that has happened with most of the prophets in history

So do the messages from your god change? If so then is your god perfect and how can you be sure that you are doing the will of your god.

quote:

Ok first off, that's horrible and not at all what Islam is about.

So both instances are bad, we both agree, the point that we disagree on is the link to Islam. Well in both instances the perpetrators of these actions point to verses from the Koran to support their actions, so I don’t see how you can say that there is not a tie to Islam.

quote:

No, if you claim a fact you back it up with non-biased evidence in the form of links. In other words I will reitterate my statement: I do not have to prove they were fabricated, that is not my prerogative, it is your job to prove it correct.

I did provide multiple links; read my posts before you go demanding evidence. I already provided the links, go back and look at them.

quote:

And as an athiest I believe Christianity is leading a similar number astray.

So? You are entitled to you belief just as I am entitled to mine. The point is a debate on whether Islam is a true or not is just as valid, and reasonable as a debate on whether or not Christianity is a true religion.

quote:

You should look up 'the tragedy of American foreign policy'. In a similar fashion to the Roman empire the US is deluded in the belief its values are superior to those of others.

So you don’t like the US foreign policy. Why? Because America confronts Islamic Radicalism around the world? If you look at who the us has fought against you evil find a list of evil groups and people. The US has had a history of fighting evil around the world. Also the actions of the US don’t line up with the theory that the US is just out to rule the world. If this was the case we would be conquering nations, not liberating them.

quote:

Assissting other nations? or creating a better environment for which the US can flourish?

We do assist countries. You cans se many examples, such as Korea, Japan, Europe, and countries in South America and Africa where we have, of have had, reconstruction, and humanitarian missions to help these countries.

quote:

Upholding human rights? Guantanamo Bay, Abu-Ghraib, not to mention the highly likey use of torture to extract information from suspecte US enemies. The comments of Cheney over waterboarding especially horrifying.

As for human rights whose definition of human rights are you using? Look at who is on the UN human rights committees. Countries such as China, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, Cuba, Sira Lanka, Nigeria, and Egypt. These are some of the worst human rights violators and yet they are dealing with defining human rights violation, is it any surprise that according to them the worst human right violators are the US and Israel.

To look at the prisons these people are not solders they are terrorists, and as such the Geneva laws don’t apply to them. Also it is perfectly acceptable to use coerced interrogation to gain intelligence from these terrorists to save lives. These prisons are necessary institutions to delay with the horrible people. We should not me more concerned with the “rights” of these terrorists, and then we are fighting these terrorists.

quote:

Actually...all the crusaders were Christian, aggression aimed not only towards Muslims but to Pagans across the Baltic and beyond.

Let me clarify once again, I am not saying that the crusaders were not at fault. All I was saying is that the Muslims were not faultless doing the incident, and that we need to not pot all the blame for the crusades on the Christian, and forget the part that the Muslims had to play in the violence.

quote:

then I can't be worshiping the same God as you neph because I hold different views on who God is and the nature of God,

If you don’t believe that Jesus is God, then you don’t believe in the same God that I do. My point was that the belief in the divinity of Christ is foundational to Christianity, and you can’t say that you worship the same God as the Christians if you don’t believe that Jesus was God.

quote:

Christians and Muslims can’t be worshiping the same God, because we have to different views on who God is.

then I can't be worshiping the same God as you neph because I hold different views on who God is and the nature of God, This in spite of my overall christian (roman-catholic to get specific) faith. Ah well I suppose I am only a godless heathen because I don't have the same ideas about God as you

quote:

But there is proof. Several major news organizations have covered this story, so you are saying that they are lying, or making this up. Why should I believe you, what justification do you have for this claim, or are you saying that you are more credible then major international news organizations.

No, if you claim a fact you back it up with non-biased evidence in the form of links. This is how debate and science works. I can claim anything is false unless sufficient evidence is provided in support of your idea. In other words I will reitterate my statement: I do not have to prove they were fabricated, that is not my prerogative, it is your job to prove it correct.

Is this so hard to understand?

quote:

And there is a huge terrorist problem in England now. I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I am saying that I think Islam is a fundamentally flawed religion that destroys many good people. As a Christian I believe that Islam is a false religion that is leading over 1 billion people astray.

And as an athiest I believe Christianity is leading a similar number astray. A matter of opinion?

quote:

Here we go again, America the evil empire. Why is America an evil empire? If we are an evil empire why have we not taken control of the world, and why do we pump billions of dollars into other countries to help them? Why do we assist countries all around the world, and uphold human rights, if we are an evil empire? Really al this evil America stuff is a bunch of crap that really does not fit with the facts at all.

You should look up 'the tragedy of American foreign policy'. In a similar fashion to the Roman empire the US is deluded in the belief its values are superior to those of others. In this belief countless interventions and invasions have occured carried out in the belief that if American democracy can be spread, then a world order will arise dominated by America and American values, not to mention the believed side affect of American capitalism (a great misconception that these go hand in hand), which will in turn line the pockets of the powerful in the US.

Assissting other nations? or creating a better environment for which the US can flourish?

Upholding human rights? Guantanamo Bay, Abu-Ghraib, not to mention the highly likey use of torture to extract information from suspecte US enemies. The comments of Cheney over waterboarding especially horrifying.

http://www.president-bush.com/torture-waterboarding.html

Have you not noticed your governments attempts to justify such institutions? Guantanamo bay is by all means a concntration camp, no different from the Gulags of Siberia. How can you justify it and still uphold human rights?

And as my final point, occupying and annexing land outright is not the only form of imperialism.

quote:

I never said that they weren’t Christian acts; I simply said that the crusades were not just an instance of Christian aggression. Not all of the parties involved were Christian, not even all of the crusaders were Christian. So it is incorrect to say that the crusades were simply an example of Christian aggression.

Actually...all the crusaders were Christian, aggression aimed not only towards Muslims but to Pagans across the Baltic and beyond.

I would also like to point out that during one Christian crusade, the Crusaders decided to stp of at Constantinople (who had split from the catholic church) and ransack and pillage the entire city. Infact if one is lucky enough to go to Aya Sofya in Istanbul today, some of the damage can still be seen.

quote:

Here’s a link to another site. It has a lot of information about the profit Muhammad.
http://www.historyofjihad.org/

I'm not going to read through that thoroughly offensive website to find this so called "proof".

quote:

Christians and Muslims can’t be worshiping the same God, because we have to different views on who God is.

We agree on the basics. We are worshipping the God who created us and the God who will judge us on judgement day

quote:

a belief in the divinity in Christ is foundational to Christianity. Christianity would not be a religion without Jesus.

I've always considered religion as the motivation for living a certain lifestyle, which, in both Islam and Christianity, is a good, honest, charitable, modest (etc) existence. No, our religions are not that same, but if you followed a true Muslim and a true Christian around for a day you'd see that they both have the same values and, besides the manor of dress or prayer, they are exactly the same. I don't think being a good person has much to do with God or Jesus at all; yes, they are your motivation but it is us up to you to decide how you are going to live and in both religions, the divine power is encouraging you to act the same. So the religions are basically the same if you look at the actions of its followers.

quote:

How can Jesus be a good man, he claimed o be divine.

Muslims don't believe that Jesus ever claimed to be divine. It was his disciples who wrote the Old Testament, correct? Sometime after his "death" (btw, we don't really believe he DIED either lol), the hearsay about the many miracles he performed must have gotten bigger and bigger and somehow the image got skewed until he was believed to be divine. We believe he was a prophet who's message was changed after his time on earth, something that has happened with most of the prophets in history.

quote:

Here’s two links to news articles about the girls who were beheaded
Here’s two links about the Muslim (Palestinian) children taught to blow themselves up.

Ok first off, that's horrible and not at all what Islam is about. Indonesia, I know nothing about and I'm not going to pretend to understand the situation there. That article was pretty old so I hope things have gotten better since then. In Palestine, what makes me so sad about these kids is that people are using them for political reasons and telling them that it's for religion. Personally, I don't think it's wrong to teach them how to operate a weapon since they do live in a warzone, but they are too young to have ideas like that about heaven and hell drilled into their heads.

And i have to go, so I will continue you this later. Oh, but clpo said something about Islam being based on the Quran and not Mohammad's life but it IS actually based on both, in some sects of Islam more than others, but his life and actions are significant. I'll write more later.

quote:

But would it be a free choice. No! I am being forced to make a life and death choice, while under coercion.

Okay, now I think I understand the confusion. Yes, you are forced to make a choice, but the choice is yours to make freely. So, the freedom lies in what path you take, which I think is the issue here. It's like taking a multiple choice test. You have to answer the questions, but it's your choice whether you pick A, B, or C. You don't have a choice to make a choice, but you have a choice in what choice you make. (That probably make no sense, but neither does this whole debate.)

Hopefully that's clear, although I have a sinking suspicion we're still not on the same level here...

quote:

If you reject the divinity of Christ you reject the God of the bible. Jesus is part of God.

You're looking at it from a Christian standpoint which means you'll never accept the Muslim idea of God, since it denies the divinity of Jesus. I don't mean to offend, but you'll never be open-minded enough to consider the idea that Jesus might not have been divine. As such, it's a bit fruitless to keep arguing the point. We'll simply have to agree to disagree (especially since I neither believe Jesus to be divine nor believe Muhammad to be the prophet of God).

quote:

I simply said that the crusades were not just an instance of Christian aggression. Not all of the parties involved were Christian, not even all of the crusaders were Christian.

It's a question of point of view, isn't it? From the Muslim view, their capture of the remnants of the Byzantine Empire (including Jerusalem, a Muslim holy city) was justified in that they were on a mission from God to establish a worldwide Muslim caliphate. From that point of view, the Crusades were indeed Christian aggression, since they were denying the Muslims the ability to complete their God-given mission to convert the world.

From a Christian standpoint, such as the one you've firmly rooted yourself in, the Muslims were the aggressors, when they conquered much of the Near East and took control of Jerusalem, which is also a Christian holy city. From this stance, the Crusades were justified in retaliation for the capture of Jerusalem and the rest of the Holy Land. Not only that, but the Muslims were barbaric pagans who were out to kill Christians at any cost (a wholly inaccurate view, but rather popular at the time).

So, two irreconcilable views. In one, the Christians are the aggressors, and in the other, the Muslims are. Now, my interest in the Crusades are purely historical, so I will stay out of any argument regarding the justification of them. I'll leave that to people who actually have a side in that debate (I find fighting over a single city rather petty, all things considered).

Also, I have something to say regarding the contrast between the relative passiveness of Jesus and the aggressiveness of Muhammad. Now, Islam makes no claim that Muhammad was divine. In fact, he was merely human. If the claims of Islam are considered to be true, then Muhammad received messages from God through an angel, all of which combined make up the Qu'ran. Furthermore, Muhammad was told to spread these messages throughout the world. Tough job, but not the first time this sort of thing has happened.

Anyways, aside from being a prophet, Muhammad was nothing more. He was still a human. So, any claim that he was warlike is rather pointless since he not only came from a warlike background (his first converts were from warring Arab tribes), but also had no compunctions about carrying on that kind of life. In order to understand Muhammad's actions, one must realize that he didn't kill wantonly (as is a common misconception). He killed because he needed to, generally in defense of his and his peoples' way of life. Beheading captured enemies? That was something his people had done for ages before he was even born. You don't get rid of something like that overnight. From a Muslim view, Muhammad was not the creator of Islam; he was just another Muslim like anyone else, with the added bonus of being the Prophet. His actions meant nothing, really, since they weren't supposed to follow him; they were supposed to follow the Qu'ran. Islam is not based at all on the actions of Muhammad. If anything, it's based on his words, but that's only if you think the Qu'ran was not divinely inspired.

Christianity, on the other hand, is indeed based on the actions of Jesus. Why? Well, because the Christian claim is that Jesus was God incarnate. Of course his actions mattered. If Christianity's claims are true, Jesus was divine, he was Christ, and he was sent to establish a new church on Earth. Contrast that with Islam and you'll see that comparing Jesus and Muhammad doesn't quite work, unless you're looking at both religions skeptically (i.e. you consider Jesus to be the human creator of Christianity and you consider Muhammad to be the human creator of Islam).