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The Catholic Church, for example, is a huge institution, but for the most part the modern Catholic Church is pascifistic and rational.

Remember the Church still censors the use of condoms in africa even though HIV has reached the level of a pandemic. That sure is rational behaviour on their part isn't it?

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I think that you know that that is different. We can clearly see that the place is not reversed so why speculate about what the world would be like if it was.

Because all of your arguments so far in all the discussions we have had are based on context rather than fact. I remind you information can only be taken as fact when there is general consensus on it's truthfullness. Thus, you implicitly saying islam is evil, and basing your statements on non consensuated information automatically discredits your whole discourse.

For understanding. By switching places, you see why people are the way they are. Ever heard the phrase "walk a mile in someone else's shoes?"

The hypothetical is not always ridiculous. It can be useful to speculate on what could have been, if only to better understand what is.

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Like God? Oh, snap! I'll just stop arguing about God, then, since I find him ridiculous.

I think that you know that that is different. We can clearly see that the place is not reversed so why speculate about what the world would be like if it was.

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When something is completely ridicules it is not even worth speculating about.

Like God? Oh, snap! I'll just stop arguing about God, then, since I find him ridiculous.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT TERRORISM BUT ISLAM SURE SEEMS TO PROMOTE CAPS LOCK!!!!1ONE

On second thought, the modern institution of Islam certainly does seem to promote terrorism, or at least agression.

You can quote all the Koran passages you want. What makes up a relegion and culture are the actions of that culture. With a signifigant portion of the Muslim population supporting radical positions promoting theocratic government and agression against "infidels", you're hard pressed to prove to me that a good portion of Islamic institution promotes terrorism.

It's the same way that fundamentalist Christians promote radical actions against homosexuals. It's just that Western civilization has mostly moved beyond these things, and "radical" Christians are for the most part rare. The Catholic Church, for example, is a huge institution, but for the most part the modern Catholic Church is pascifistic and rational.

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Neph, I think the idea was this: what if our places were reversed? What if the West was primarily Muslim and the Middle East Christian?

When something is completely ridicules it is not even worth speculating about.

I meant that Islam was created in a desert environment. Deserts are harsh places to live and to survive requires being tough.

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d actually say that Islam quickly reachd its zenith and was by no means developed in harsh times. Much of the European enlightenment was born from those with the Muslim faith.

It helps that the Muslim world kept better track of advancement of thought; St. Thomas Aquinas only uses 'virtue' in Natural Law because the arab people had kept texts of Aristotles when the West had long forgotten it.

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Islam is a religion born of harsh times and environment

i'd actually say that Islam quickly reachd its zenith and was by no means developed in harsh times. Much of the European enlightenment was born from those with the Muslim faith. Unfortunatly the middle-east stagnated through 200 years of Ottoman decline and failed, unlike Turkey, to break free from colonial occupation following WW1 and develop into a democratic, secular and industrial part of the world.

Neph, I think the idea was this: what if our places were reversed? What if the West was primarily Muslim and the Middle East Christian?

Of course, it's only hypothetical, since it's doubtful Islam would have ever arisen in Europe and the Americas, considering how nature-oriented early religions were there. Islam is a religion born of harsh times and environment, which is why it's so seemingly harsh. The desert is not a place to be especially nice.

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That’s a dumb statement. If all the Arabs in the Middle East were Christian there would be no war on terror, and the inhabitance of the Middle East would not constantly be launching Jihads.

God, you are more stupid than I thought.

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do you seriously expect a website titled prophetofdoom to be taken seriously by anyone other than yourself?

It was the first okay website that I found. It is quoting directly from the Koran.

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who would probaly be right up with the arabs who are up in arms if they were christian and not muslim

That’s a dumb statement. If all the Arabs in the Middle East were Christian there would be no war on terror, and the inhabitance of the Middle East would not constantly be launching Jihads.

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Originally posted by speed:
Muhammad merely wrote a survival code which all tribes could abide to make their life easier.

Well, to an extent. Pork is banned for health reasons (as you said), and polligamy is allowed mainly for practical reasons. But as for alcohol, that's banned because it makes you act like an idiot and lose your self control, leading you to do more and more things that cause harm to yourself and those around you. And it's not fair to just state that women are discriminated against. As a woman in Islam, I have never once felt discriminated against. I think a lot of people look at head scarves and see opression, but I don't know, I look at fashion magazines and see opression, people trapped in their little boxes, judged completely on their appearance. Women and men are completely equal in Islam (the words "man" and "woman" are even mentioned the exact same number of times in the Quran. So is "day" and "night". And I think "month" is in there 12 times. It's pretty cool)

I do agree that Islam is a great guide to life, but I mean, I'm a Muslim. I think it's God's plan, so it should be the right one. And you can't disregard the spiritual aspects to the religion, if you read the Quran, most of the verses are concerning (either history or) thoughts and prayer.

I know it's late, but thanks for the post Dalecia.

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You're starting to look like a christian fundamentalist.

correction he is a right wing christian fundamentalist nut job who would probaly be right up with the arabs who are up in arms if they were christian and not muslim

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Here’s a website that has a collection of Islamic verses related to: war, Jihad, and other such topics
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam
Also it’s not just a religion started in a mist of violence but its founder taught violence.

do you seriously expect a website titled prophetofdoom to be taken seriously by anyone other than yourself?
You're starting to look like a christian fundamentalist.

If I cared to, I could find just as many verses in the Bible advocating violence. True, most of those verses would be in the Old Testament and would more apply to Judaism, but do you think Judaism is a religion of violence?

Before accusing Muhammad of teaching wanton violence, you should investigate just whom he was advocating violence against. I believe you'll find that the only violence he condoned was that done in defense of Islam. Self-defense, in other words.

Here’s a website that has a collection of Islamic verses related to: war, Jihad, and other such topics
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam
Also it’s not just a religion started in a mist of violence but its founder taught violence.

I have to say I agree to the extent that media and crazy extremists have darkened Islam's image in the eyes of the west, but I disagree on spiritual issues completely.

Muhammad merely wrote a survival code which all tribes could abide to make their life easier.

Why can't they drink alcohol? because in a desertic climate you become dehidrated even faster if you drink.
Why can't they eat pork? Because at the time of Muhammad's "predicament", there was a desease that affected pigs, which killed anyone that was infected with it.(I'll try to find the name of this disease, I can't remember it now)
Why is poligamy allowed? because in a hostile climate which difficults survival a large family unit has more chances than a small one.
Why are women discriminated? Because men's greater physical strength and endurance helped them survive much easier in the desert, creating the impression that women are weak.

A religion born of strife does not necessarily mean a religion of violence. There are very many portions of the Qu'ran that advocate peace. I would think a religion's holy book is more important than how it was created.

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You need to take it in context. Muhammad came from a tribal people who warred constantly with each other

I don’t completely agree with this argument, but let’s just say I do agree with it. Let’s assume that the violence was because of culture, does that show that Islam is not a violent religion? The claim is made that Islam is a religion of peace, but there is the undeniable presence of violence, and even if it was contextual as you say, doesn’t that point to Islam not being a religion of Peace?