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The real question should be :: will you ever forgive your president(s) for creating this situation?

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Heh. Funny you should ask...

I'd forgive them, but I certainly don't see them apologizing any time soon.


Love, Jenny

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Originally posted by CarrieHubert:
"Forgive bin Laden?

No. Never. He is themost evil person I have ever heard of, laid eyes on, had contact with, anything. He's done much more than just the attacks on September 11. First off, he's too much of a stupid, corrupted mind to apologize, plus he has way too much pride. I can't even explain my hatred towards bin Laden. There are no words, I'm sure other Americans feel this too. When I think about him and what he has done, really think, it makes me shudder and my breathing go really deep. I would never forgive him, and would think twice about being friends with anyone who did because their morals are obviously wrong, like bin Laden's."

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First off, you have no actual knowledge of Bin Laden, what he's done, or what he may/may not have been involved with. Second, all you're spewing is rote American government propoganda, and although your dictatorial government thanks all of its sheep in its minefield for their blind support of their terrorist actions around the globe, it is important for you to realize that you really have no knowledge on the topic other than (what sounds like) strictly AMERICAN-BASED sources.

Your country is at war - and the first thing to go in war is TRUTH. The fact that you can "hate" someone so much that you've never met, to the point of all those physical symptoms play out, really makes it appear as though you have little factual knowledge of the situation, and are relying solely on the sensationalized "reporting" of companies opinions.

Out of curiosity, do you believe that the media is in the business of reporting TRUTH? If you do, I've got a motorcycle with doors I wanna sell you.

People are looking for other people to blame. It's the easiest way to not take responsibility for the fact that America brought this on themselves, from years of terrorist acts around the globe which have resulted in millions of innocents being killed.

The real question should be :: will you ever forgive your president(s) for creating this situation?

I forgive bin Laden, because God said to forgive all people, regardless of what they did, said or thought.

However, where is the direct evidence of bin Laden's involvement?

The media has been very quick to convict him, yet hasn't said much more.

Like, for instance, the fact that our government trained and funded him.

I forgive our government for that too.

And about the Saudi hijackers who were trained and funded by our government.

I forgive our government for that too.


Let's all just get something straight here. The enemy is not just bin Laden, al-Qaeda, or the Taliban.

It's our own damn government.

The government has sought over the killing of innocent Americans before...

People are being deceived into thinking that our government would never do such a thing; spare me. The evidence is very clear.

As Pogo said. "I see the enemy and the enemy is us."

No. Never. He is themost evil person I have ever heard of, laid eyes on, had contact with, anything. He's done much more than just the attacks on September 11. First off, he's too much of a stupid, corrupted mind to apologize, plus he has way too much pride. I can't even explain my hatred towards bin Laden. There are no words, I'm sure other Americans feel this too. When I think about him and what he has done, really think, it makes me shudder and my breathing go really deep. I would never forgive him, and would think twice about being friends with anyone who did because their morals are obviously wrong, like bin Laden's.

I don't plan to stop all wars, the point is a personal rejection of war. Not saying "war is bad, but....." (where one goes on to say "we need to kill this person" or whatever) simply having people realize war is bad. Change will come.

It is simple. I don't know how else to help you grasp it.
If you don't start a war, and I don't start a war, we're already two people closer. The point it not to stop war, it's to not start it in the first place.

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you cant deny the fact that according to the World Court we are convicted terrorists.

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Actually, I can. There is no World Court, because Reagan's administration refused to ratify it.

It would be more accurate to say that the US's continual refusal to accept the World Court is evidence that suggests that we, ourselves, are guilty of international terrorism and war crimes.


Love, Jenny

you cant deny the fact that according to the World Court we are convicted terrorists. You also can not deny that according to UN charters what we did in Afghanistan (and especially what the pres wants to do in iraq) is illegal. We just didnt want to sign the charter because we want the UN to help us but to also be below us. The president has in the past said that he will take action with or without the support of the UN and was going to go into iraq without consent of congress. He can send troups without congresses approval he just cant declare war, but so far no war has been called any where.


as for forgiving osama bin laden, i dont think i could. not jsut for what he did to hte US but how he has manipulated an entire country if not an entire culture. He reminds me a lot of hitler. at the beginning he was going to bring great change and after a while everyone around him was to afraid to do anything but go along for fearof their lives and their families lives. There were a few martyrs but there always is and they always end up dead.

Let me level with you: I'm trying very hard not to provoke you, not to come off as aggressive, and not to make this debate nasty, but I feel you're not respecting what I have to say at all. Just because we disagree doesn’t mean you have to hate me.

To respond to what you said, I think I haven't made myself clear enough. I didn't mean to get into a discussion of the threats, as I don't know the details (and am not particularly interested in them). Furthermore, I'm really not just looking to pick a fight or blame anyone (really!). With that said, I’ll add that Bush has a huge amount of control over how the government handles threats such as that. Sure, he probably doesn't read them personally, but that doesn't make him any less responsible for making sure threats are dealt with in a matter that ensures our safety.

Look, I know that Bush isn't a dictator. Please don't tell me what I said, especially when I obviously didn't. The fact is that the President of the US has a huge, huge role in deciding on and facilitating global politics and economics, as well as the protocols for action within his own country (including the way threats are dealt with). I don't feel I need to explain it more, but if you want me to just let me know.

The definition of terrorism that the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Edition) gives is this:

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The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

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Did we not, as an organized government, unlawfully (against the UN Charter) use force and violence against people and property (of Afghanistan) with the intention of intimidating and/or coercing the Taliban and Afghan people to "turn in" bin Laden, for political and ideological reasons? You justified our government's actions by saying it was a response to terrorism, not terrorism itself -- but I beg to differ; I think our acts were similarly ruthless and terrorizing.

You know, over in Afghanistan there are people calling the US government terrorists. (As well as plenty of people here.) If you really want to know more, just ask me to tell you about how the US uses terrorist tactics, and I'll be glad to share.


Love, Jenny

Screw it.. but I tried, people!

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-He- isn't responsible for the attacks as a whole, and it's completely ignorant to blame him for that when he had NO control over what happened.

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-He- isn't responsible for the attacks as a whole, and it's completely ignorant to blame him for that when he had NO control over what happened.
there was my original quote, but I screwed it up

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-He- isn't responsible for the attacks as a whole, and it's completely ignorant to blame him for that when he had NO control over what happened.
THAT was my whole quote, and if you didn't understand it, I will be more than delighted to explain it to you You can't blame Bush when didn't wasn't made aware of the threats. Why are you all so eager to place blame, anyway? Why don't you try to focus on how to prevent terrorism NOW instead of trying to place the blame on a past event?

How on earth can you blame Bush for all the civilians that have been killed? I'm sorry, but I wasn't born yesterday. Bush isn't a dictator, he doesn't make all of the decisions. THAT is what you're saying. I read your posts. He is in charge politically, yes, but he doesn't make ALL of the decisions in the military/government. That's why we have a Congress. You cannot simply push the blame off on one man, even though you say he holds the most political power. And if you take the time to reread MY posts, you'll see that I never implied that he had no say in anything. You misinterpreted it. Oh yah, the civilians that have died in Afghanistan is completely different from 9/11. There is such a enormous contrast between the two. 9/11 was induced by terrorism, and the casualties of 9/11 have died as a result of trying to fight that terrorism. Please, try to see things from both points of views before you criticize me for not seeing things for how they really are.

1. I'm not talking about the threats. I'm talking about the thousands of civilians killed in the War on Terrorism so far -- 3,500 documented civilian casualties in Afghanistan, which is comparable to the 3,225 casualties (not all civilian, by the way) from 9/11. Re-read my post when I posed the question a while back.

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he had NO control over what happened.

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Are you joking, or do you actually believe that the most politically powerful man in the world today has absolutely no say in what happens in his own government?


Love, Jenny

Here's my reply to your question. Nobody forgot about you Anyway, it shouldn't be a question on forgiving Bush. -He- isn't responsible for the attacks as a whole, and it's completely ignorant to blame him for that when he had NO control over what happened. Maybe his administration as a whole was a bit irresponsible, because they did get terror threats about that attacks on Washington and New York, but they get thousands of threats a day. Do you know how hard it is to distinguish the real threats from the lies? Anyway, no good comes out of blaming one man for something that a group of evil, irrational, religious fanatics did.

And how do you propose to bring about this "solution?" How do -you- plan to stop all wars?

I...hmmm...Nobody has answered my question!. Bleah!


Love, Jenny

The "solution" is to not wage war and kill people...

CommonSense: in NO way did I say it's just right to kill innocent people. You're taking everything I said out of context, obviously. There's isn't a simple solution to this, but it's completely ignorant to say that it's right to kill anyone. I never once implied that. Yes, I tried to justify it, seeing how most of you can criticize and make so many assumptions, but don't think ahead. What would be your solution to this? It -is- morally wrong to kill anyone, regardless of who they are, but I simply stated that it HAPPENS, and it's not going to change. So instead of deciding whether or not it's right or wrong, why don't you concentrate on supplying a solution to the problem? It'd make much more sense to me, but do what you please. And by they way, I have an attitude, so if you don't like my comments, I appologize -again- but learn to live with it, seeing how -I- have to live in a world full of idiots And I'm not implying anything there

Heh, word.

Sorry, I was going to actually write something substantial, but it's been covered.


Love, Jenny

P.S. I know the question itself is turning out to be controversial, but I still think it's valid. Would you or wouldn't you forgive Dubbya for the 3,500 civilian deaths that he is responsible for? My answer is yes. (Of course, I don't hear him apologizing.) Anyone else care to answer?