I really don't support the war and I don't support the troops who fight in the war. Everyone is acting like they are making a huge sacrifice by fighting but in reality it was their choice to join up.

I choose to not support any aspect of the war whether it's the dunderheads that start them or the dunderheads that fight in them.

quote:

Do not make the mistake of thinking that I dismiss this lightly. Don't you bloody dare.

I wasn't referring to you. I was talking about "other people". Sorry about that.

quote:

I'm sorry I'm being so adverserial, but I think this topic in particular does that to people.

Indeed.

And the great troll that lives under the YN bridge comes out again. I wonder, does the troll post to reflect the troll's thoughts or just to harass others or just to read what they wrote and "say hooray I can type."

There is no need for war in this day and age.

War is what keeps our planet from becoming a T1 planet so if you consider war a 'nescessary evil' then you are against the progress of the human race.

America sucks.

Oh yeah, and what are my core values?

quote:

Don't even turn this into an America vs. Everyone else argument. You're typecasting me and I don't appreciate it.

I'm not type casting you, I'm typcasting America, which is not unreasonable. The Defense budget of the US (663.7 billion dollars) is almost eleven times that of the nearest contenders, China (70.3 billion), France (68.1 billion), the UK (65.1 billion). In fact, your budget is the same as the combined budgets of: the People's Republic of China, France, the UK, Japan, Russia, India, Germany, Turkey, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Australia, Italy, Iran, Canada, Spain, Israel, the Netherlands, Poland, the Republic of China, Singapore, Burma and Sweden. These are the twenty two top defense budgets after the US. I think that that demonstrates that, if any country in the world can be considered to be a warmongering one, it is the United States.

quote:

While I do not support war, whenever someone berates soldiers who were injured horribly or suffered terrible psychological effects from the war or insult parents whose children were killed in a war, I get fucking pissed off like you wouldn't believe.

I just think that taking this position is inconsistent with my other beleifs. I sympathise with the plight of those who damage themselves smoking or drinking, but I don't advocate for it. I see other people eat meat, but I don't think, that's OK, they believe that eating meat is fine, so I'll go a help them brutalise that cow - thier personal suffering is indeed terrible, as is the suffering of thier families and friends. But, and this I cannot stress enough, I find that I cannot ignore the fact that they have chosen this path, chosen these dangers, these pains, to kill other people, for whatever reason that might be.

quote:

We're so far removed from "over there", that it just becomes a fucking joke to people.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that I dismiss this lightly. Don't you bloody dare.

quote:

And you can bring up morality all you want, but I think we all should know by now from arguing with the fundies that morality is not absolute.

I think that I've made my own subjective position clear, as have you.

I'm sorry I'm being so adverserial, but I think this topic in particular does that to people.

quote:

This makes me question the inherent stability of having this debate with a group of Americans.

Don't even turn this into an America vs. Everyone else argument. You're typecasting me and I don't appreciate it.

I will admit that most of that post was written out of intense anger. While I do not support war, whenever someone berates soldiers who were injured horribly or suffered terrible psychological effects from the war or insult parents whose children were killed in a war, I get fucking pissed off like you wouldn't believe. Sorry, must be the fact that I'm American.

We're so far removed from "over there", that it just becomes a fucking joke to people. I do not know the mechanics of war, I do not claim to know why we are in Iraq in the first place, but I strongly doubt that we're out there randomly shooting people for the fun of it. And no matter what the reason for the killing, my heart still aches for both sides of this conflict.

And you can bring up morality all you want, but I think we all should know by now from arguing with the fundies that morality is not absolute.

It is a difficult issue for me that confuses and hurts me in so many ways where I can not take one moral stance over another. I'll shut up about it now.

A couple years ago I supported neither the troops or the war. Now I support the troops with my best wishes. War is an evil and yes to degree it is necessary. I just wish it wasn't and peace and love always a good thing to stand for.

quote:

We are animals. We fight.

But not for much longer. The schematics of war are changing, largely as technology increasingly allows citizens and not states to declare war. And the situations that create citizens willing to become, for want of a better word, terrorists are not ones that are solvable by a full scale conflict with the regime in quesiton. The military of the not too distant future is going to look more like a police force, because whilest a state is dangerous, an individual with the power to destroy whole cities, or obliterate the human population of a contintent, is not a too distant prospect.

Sci-fi style reflections aside, I notice that EG is employing the same strongarming tactics as Lost. This makes me question the inherent stability of having this debate with a group of Americans.

quote:

It is stupid and unrealistic to expect the human race as a whole to never fight over anything.

I didn't say that it wasn't stupid or unrealistic - I said it was moral, which often equates to the same thing. The whole point that Gandhi made was that any human being with sufficient moral perspective chooses to die rather than be immoral. Fighting for what you believe in, if it's a decent morality, fundamentally violates that morality in a way that is unforgiveable.

Kant would say much the same thing. A vast quantity of moral philosophers would argue along similar lines. My qualms with the military are based on the morality of thier actions, and the type of people who willingly sign up to jobs in which immoral acts like killing people may become an everyday eventuality, not with the inherent nature of human beings, which I acknowledge to be nasty, brutish and in every way terrible.

I don't deny that soldiers suffer terribly; I think that thier experiences are a terrible evil in themselves, and any individual cases that I read about are heartrending. But this argument is not about individual cases, or about thier suffering, but fundamentally about whether what soldiers do is a profession that is worthy of support, regardless of the suffering it may entail for those who pursue it, since suffering is not in itself worthiness. If, in supporting them, I make the moral choice to side with people who kill other people for a living, regardless of ideological slant, then I collaborate in an immorality that I refuse to take onto my own shoulders.

quote:

And I'm happy that people are out there fighting, so I don't have to.

This is such an irritating thing to say, EG, and I'm quite convinced that you know that. Because hypothethical statements like this evoke pathos, but demonstrate nothing. Nor does it effect the questions of personal morality that I attempted to raise.

Also, due to the phrasing of that same comment, it would only make sense if the US was being invaded, which I don't think is currently the case.

quote:

Your very existence benefits from the brutal deaths of millions. You are just as guilty.

I must confess it strange to see an American use this argument, because your whole political system is constructed around the premise that this isn't true, and that heredity is not a good was to govern. I do not inherit the sins of my forefathers, and any benefits that I have gained through others actions are not anything to do with my moral state. I absolutely do not think that it is reasonable to say that I am guilty of killing people because my forefathers have been.

quote:

Originally posted by lost2Ize:
You are right wolfie. It is a soldiers choice to join the army.

But this does not mean a soldier does not have to sacrifice. I have been deployed to Iraq twice. I have seen countless marriages end, Fathers miss their child’s birth, birthdays, high school graduation, college graduation, soldiers lose arms, legs, eyes, ears, I've lost 2 very good friends, and know of at least 4 children who have lost their mothers, and many who have lost their fathers, I know many soldiers who are now dead because they had sacrifice to the point where they had no more to give.

I'm not saying to have to support Soldiers, or war. I think your reasons for not supporting rough men and women to stand ready to violence on your behalf is selfish, childish, and about as ill informed as most your core beliefs are.

Enjoy your sleep wolfie.

This.

It is stupid and unrealistic to expect the human race as a whole to never fight over anything. We are animals. We fight. And I'm happy that people are out there fighting, so I don't have to.

War is a necessary evil. I'm sorry, but it is. If it weren't for war, most of would not be able to speak your mind against the war in the first place. So, I don't care if this makes me a horrible person, but my heart, my deepest sympathies and condolences goes out to all soldiers fighting for what they believe in.

I may not be a pacifist, but my heart bleeds for EVERYONE. No exceptions. A soldier may have killed someone, justly or unjustly, but I'm still going to love them as human beings. I am no better than they are. And neither are you, Wolfie and Brehon. Your very existence benefits from the brutal deaths of millions. You are just as guilty.

quote:

Most certaintly not, did you know the majority of soldiers that have joined is because of money or college.

Just to wade into the topic at this late stage, but once again I'm in agreement with Wolfie.

In essence, the choice to support troops is dependent on thier being moral or immoral. Most people on this thread have previously argued that the war is unjust, but that we should support the troops anyway, because they are doing a tough job in an impossible situation. However, I would like to extend the moral criticism to the decision to become a soldier in the first place. As a pacifist (I'd have thought this was quite obviously in keeping with my vegetarian, tea-totaling lifestyle), I think that anyone who deliberately chooses a job in which they might have to kill people surrenders the moral high ground.

The fact that the army offers incentives like help through college isn't really an excuse; if anything it further weights the moral debate against potential soldiers. Getting a job that may involve killing people so that you can go to college is not a moral choice.

I also think, lost, that adding "Enjoy your sleep wolfie" to the end of your post might be considered strongarming, which is as much to say as you saying that wolfie has to support both soldiers and the war.

You are right wolfie. It is a soldiers choice to join the army.

But this does not mean a soldier does not have to sacrifice. I have been deployed to Iraq twice. I have seen countless marriages end, Fathers miss their child’s birth, birthdays, high school graduation, college graduation, soldiers lose arms, legs, eyes, ears, I've lost 2 very good friends, and know of at least 4 children who have lost their mothers, and many who have lost their fathers, I know many soldiers who are now dead because they had sacrifice to the point where they had no more to give.

I'm not saying to have to support Soldiers, or war. I think your reasons for not supporting rough men and women to stand ready to violence on your behalf is selfish, childish, and about as ill informed as most your core beliefs are.

Enjoy your sleep wolfie.

quote:

it might be there choice to join up, but do you really think that they joined to fight a war

lol, I know many who join the army because they want to kill people. nice.

How will a terrorist dictate my life? Are we going to elect bin laden as the 2012 presidential candidate?

You watch fox news.

that's some white man's burden bullshit oh im sorry poor little sand nigg--hadj--brown person, you dont know whats good for you so let us just take care of that for you awww look at those li'l iraqis all thinking theyre a sovereign people capable of self-governance

also

quote:

They are brainwashed from day one.

quote:

But what they are really fighting for is freedom, do you need a terrorist to start dictating your life? dont think you would like that very much.

welp

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
I really don't support the war and I don't support the troops who fight in the war. Everyone is acting like they are making a huge sacrifice by fighting but in reality it was their choice to join up.

it might be there choice to join up, but do you really think that they joined to fight a war? Most certaintly not, did you know the majority of soldiers that have joined is because of money or college. They pay 100% tuition for college. Know anywhere else where that is done, know of a job that does that but ALSO pays for housing and daycare and medical insurance. I dont think so! The military is sooo much more than just fighting a war. Yes they do go over to fight, when they are told. Maybe they are a little brainwashed that they are fighting for the country. But what they are really fighting for is freedom, do you need a terrorist to start dictating your life? dont think you would like that very much. How do you think they feel over in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are brainwashed from day one. they don't know the difference and they need help. Thats what soldiers provide for. It's not killing of innocent people. You don't shoot unless a credible threat is presented. That's how soldiers are trained. Not fire at will. You don't really understand the aspects of being a soldier so you can't put them down at all. Take a walk in their shoes and your little mind and body would understand, probably couldn't even do what they do.

amen to that.

I honestly thin that troops are just guinea pigs for the government. It's like the government has brainwashed the troops minds by saying ''they are fighting for our country'' but how is killing innocent people fighting for our country?

lol, right and wrong don't even matter in this thread. it's whether or not the other side has an opinion on this matter.

lollllzz

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
Abaddon, I think it's pretty obvious Wolfie was dropped on her head as child.

I don't think you're going to get anywhere productive with her since all she wants to do is gloat.

Ignoring her moronic sarcasm and general retardation would be best.

Nah, lol i don't think she was dropped on her head. She's pretty smart from what i can tell and has a lot to say but she just doesn't want to be wrong which is understandable. Nobody wants to be wrong.

Hey, Earthy, you know you might feel a little better if you took that badger out of your bum.

How do I only gloat? It was Abba over here that started the "gloating" I simply finished it. ^.-

You just can't get past certain personal bias to have a decent arguement and I'm sorry that that's how you are. Must suck eh?

Lol, See, Abba this is what I mean when I say you don't read. You seem to be thinking that I am still arguing my original post. I'm not. I haven't seen this post for months. I was hoping we could debate what changes the US needs to make in global policy but apparently all you can do is sit around and bitch about my first post that is totally unrelated to what I have been saying. This is what I mean when I say "You do not read."

lol, I don't hate anyone. With my original post I wanted to see how many I would infuriate. It's a fun game I play sometimes. It's called "How to Piss off an Idiot." I'm very good at it as you can clearly see, I barely have to post 4 sentences without getting a pissy little reply. lolzz yes I am a little sick. ^.-

However, after many months of various posts this thread evolved into a discussion, not about troops but about the horrible things that the us continues to do and why we do nothing about it and what we should do about it.

I really wish neither of you were this stupid. Otherwise this might be a little more fun...

I also wish that instead of just fartin around and blabbing on and on about nothing you would give your opinion on the current and reccent US Foreign policy that I have been eager to debate. Perhaps you don't do this because, well you just don't have any opinion about how your country should work. Alas the sheep will continue following his shepherd.

Go now little ones, you have been enlightened.

Abaddon, I think it's pretty obvious Wolfie was dropped on her head as child.

I don't think you're going to get anywhere productive with her since all she wants to do is gloat.

Ignoring her moronic sarcasm and general retardation would be best.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
lol, you don't know anything.

would you like to know why?

because you post no information about anything ever.

you do not know a single fact to contradict me.

and i love it. ^.^

What facts have you posed to me that need contradicting? You haven't said anything yet. Your whole argument centers around the fact that Americans in general are ignorant and arrogant bastards. Thats all well and good until you become one of them yourself. You become arrogant when you pretend that you can not reasonably distinguish the difference between a troop in an army and the President of the U.S. That is the issue here, you don't have the mental capacity to distinguish the people that deserve to be hated and the people that don't. You either get so confused over this or you are so incendiary that you pretend you cant. Neither is terribly appealing to your personality, thats why you get flamed.