I have come up with a solution which a lot of people have been proposing but nobodies been listening. If you look at the rest of my post you'll find its all in there.

Im sorry Meagan but i have to be harsh in my following comments. I tried to be patient and used as much information and examples as i can to show you my point but you refuse to believe me.

quote:

I'm just having a bit of a hard time connecting the two concepts...I think you need to add a few more premises to your argument. Giving food, water, all of that stuff to people who hate us doesn't ensure that the aid will actually go to children and families. More likely, you will get leaders who get rid of or destroy our aid in order to prevent any change in ways.

So called "Islamic states" are where it gets tricky. That tends to be where you have more state-supported terrorism; rich, oil producing countries that have plenty of money to donate to the cause."

This statement, and many others like it, is why the Americans have lost all their respect in the world. Whenever you dont like a nation or its people you immediatly label them all as greedy blood thirsty terrorists. Its a real pain.

Those people in Afghanistan who have nothing. Who struggle each day to find something to eat and drink do NOT hate you. Why is is so hard to understand that you are not some victims of a universal hate? Why must you be so paranoid? Its bad to yourself and to everyone you point the finger at. Besides its not all about you. You are not the only victims of terrorism. We have also suffered a great deal of attacks.

Dont worry about getting aid to the right people. If the US really wanted to give the right people the aid im sure they'ld make it happen. Honestly, with all the strenght the US and the west has, they cant get a lousy bottle of water and a loaf of bread to a hungry person in afghanistan? But i see where you get your reasoning. Afterall the US send aid to lebanon during the war of 2006 but for some magical reason the aid ended up in Sryia and never reached lebanon. Too bad the US didnt know Syria really dislikes lebanon. If only Lebanon had a port to send food directly to. But then again Israel was engaged in a war against hezbollah who were in lebanon, i wonder. By the way when red cross sent aid to afghanistan against the talibans wishes, they dropped them in parachutes to the people who needed them. Im sure if it comes down to it, that will work pretty darn well as a last resort.

Just because Osama bin Ladin came from Saudi Arabia (who by the way had it not been for the US's government would be nothing. The US gave him loads of money to fight against the Soveit Union. By recklessly trying to get rid of an enemy, the US recklessly created another one) does not make the entire Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and all its people terrorists. It doesnt not make it an extremist state who's greedy for oil and money. Dont base your facts on Jamie Fox's The Kingdom. Saudi Arabia itself was attacked by terrorists organizations. It fought back, it spent money on security and did not give it to terrorists, within a year they stopped all the attacks (with the help of the US), to this day the KSA government finds and captures terrorists before they kill innocent people. By the way the KSA's government has been a strong advocate against terrorism. Just last week it donated 44 million dollars, no strings attached, to lebanese public schools. It's using education as a weapon and not guns.

....Damn, what the hell did those lobbiests do to you?

quote:

Well what do you suggest Meagan? Kill them all? Another war will make it all better? If you kill their leaders, they will regard them as martyrs of the cause.

I probably should have mentioned that, for once, I wasn't being sarcastic.

Hey, if you can come up with a non violent solution to terrorism, by all means...

I'm just having a bit of a hard time connecting the two concepts...I think you need to add a few more premises to your argument. Giving food, water, all of that stuff to people who hate us doesn't ensure that the aid will actually go to children and families. More likely, you will get leaders who get rid of or destroy our aid in order to prevent any change in ways.

So called "Islamic states" are where it gets tricky. That tends to be where you have more state-supported terrorism; rich, oil producing countries that have plenty of money to donate to the cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
You could just go awol. If they "hated" the war so much they really could leave.

How are they going to get home, the army won't just give them a lift.

quote:

I think the chances of dying in the army are much higher than as you said "stepping outside."

I didn't mean that literally, I meant that we face risks every day at least the soldiers have some kind of passion for theirs, not something like walking to the 7-11 for a slurpee.

quote:

I have seen interviews with soldiers who talk about how they enjoy killing. I know they aren't all like that (obviously) but I refuse to support them.

Some do enjoy it, and I do not support that kind of behaviour, but when I send something to the troops I can't enclose a note saying, "could you try to give this to one of the non-psycho killer soldiers please?"

quote:

I'm sorry that my opinion made people outraged.

Truthfully, that's your opinion and you are free to it. I don't think people should be outraged simply because they disagree, I think it is more of a defensive thing. When the soldiers came home from our last controversial war (nam) they were spit on and disrespected, people are trying to make sure that doesn't happen again.

quote:

By saying that people in Iraq are fighting for our freedom is like saying that Vietnam saved us from communism. I can't stand it when people get worked up over things that just won't happen. Can you honestly think that a small rinky-dink piece of crap country like Iraq threatened our freedom. I don't think people realize just how powerful we are.

True, but people will always fear the domino effect, the idea that "if one country falls to the evils of communism, then all countries will fall in an apocolyptic succession."

quote:

Maybe I should play devil's advocate a wee bit less intensely. People like being mean to others who are different.

BTW, sorry about the midol thing, you're right, people do get a little bit incensed when discussing this topic and I am definitely evidence of that.
You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

You could just go awol. If they "hated" the war so much they really could leave.

I think the chances of dying in the army are much higher than as you said "stepping outside."

I have seen interviews with soldiers who talk about how they enjoy killing. I know they aren't all like that (obviously) but I refuse to support them. Support and respect are different. I don't respect them for being killers, for that I think they are scum regardless of whether they "wanted to kill or not." I do pity them for being dogs to the military. I suppose that's how I see soldiers, doggy's. I don't respect/support/whatever dogs but I do feel bad for them. I'm sorry that my opinion made people outraged.

By saying that people in Iraq are fighting for our freedom is like saying that Vietnam saved us from communism. I can't stand it when people get worked up over things that just won't happen. Can you honestly think that a small rinky-dink piece of crap country like Iraq threatened our freedom. I don't think people realize just how powerful we are.


Maybe I should play devil's advocate a wee bit less intensely. People like being mean to others who are different.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Profit is not a part of war. Wow. I'm just going to ignore this lack of historical knowledge.

I said exactly that although governments always will measure a war by profit, the citizens who have no control over it, and could die because of that war, should be a tad more compassionate towards their fellow citizens.

quote:

Does anyone here know the definition of 3rd world country?? Anyone? Come on don't be shy.

I looked it up to double check, and I will admit that Iraq could be qualified as a 3rd World Country under certain definitions of the term.

quote:

I'm not trying to give advise, I am stating the facts. What kind of person signs up in the military and thinks "well I'll never have to sacrifice my life." I will tell you what kind: a stupid person.

It's not that it's never, it's just very unlikely. If that's stupid then no one should ever go outside, ride in a car, or take a plane.

quote:

I don't think you understand what I am trying to say about the weapons. THERE WAS NEVER ANNNNNNY INFORMATION ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. There was never even an inkling.
Meaning that the Bush administration flat out lied and they KNEW they were lying.
mmmm corruption.

Exactly, they are dirty, rotten scum and this whole war is part of their attempt to contro the oil supply, but we, regular everyday American citizens were the ones being lied to. We fell for it, just like all of the people who enlisted because of that lie

quote:

What I am trying to say about the empty threats is that terrorism is not something new. We have been threatened countless times since the 1900s and yet we say "oh time to stop terrorism let's go to Iraq so that we can not catch Osama Bin Laden who was the one to attack our country"
Doesn't anyone find this strange? Anyone?

Also I think a lot of people are missing my point about Iraq. Why would we fight agaisnt a country that has NOT threatened us with nuclear warheads when there are countries that HAVE.

Does that make it more clear for everyone?

Doesn't it make more sense to invade a country that has broken the laws of the UN when it comes to their missile factories rather than invading a tiny country with an asshole for a leader.

I completely agree, the war is a stupid, stupid venture, and we have no right to be there. Many soldiers agree, but they can't just drop their gun and walk off the battle field. This isn't their fault any more than it is yours or mine.

greenie- So how about instead of just looking at one post you read the whole thread, that way you can see personal attacks on my behalf. I thought this was a fair site, but obiviously the mods are biased. (of course)

I thought we were supposed to be about equality.

Here my posts were edited because they were unamerican because that is the greatest crime a person can commit, not being a patriotic f&&ktard. Well, now I know this is the land of the free. tsk tsk

^.^ XD ^.^ XD ^.^

saying "you ignorant sheep" doesn't necessarily refer to you Capri. It refers to all Americans. Don't flatter yourself in thinking it was about you.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miss_Mod,

Wolfie, this is a reminder. Please keep your posts civil and without personal attacks. Any offensive content by you or others will be deleted, so say what you want to say without resorting to attacks at us, thank you.

I think everyone here is a hypocrite. Hypocrisy is part of human nature in case none of you ever realized this...


Profit is not a part of war. Wow. I'm just going to ignore this lack of historical knowledge.

Does anyone here know the definition of 3rd world country?? Anyone? Come on don't be shy.

I'm not trying to give advise, I am stating the facts. What kind of person signs up in the military and thinks "well I'll never have to sacrifice my life." I will tell you what kind: a stupid person.

I don't think you understand what I am trying to say about the weapons. THERE WAS NEVER ANNNNNNY INFORMATION ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. There was never even an inkling.
Meaning that the Bush administration flat out lied and they KNEW they were lying.
mmmm corruption.

What I am trying to say about the empty threats is that terrorism is not something new. We have been threatened countless times since the 1900s and yet we say "oh time to stop terrorism let's go to Iraq so that we can not catch Osama Bin Laden who was the one to attack our country"

Doesn't anyone find this strange? Anyone?

Also I think a lot of people are missing my point about Iraq. Why would we fight agaisnt a country that has NOT threatened us with nuclear warheads when there are countries that HAVE.

Does that make it more clear for everyone?

Doesn't it make more sense to invade a country that has broken the laws of the UN when it comes to their missile factories rather than invading a tiny country with an asshole for a leader.

Ha. I think it's hilarious how people act like it is hard to reason with Islamic fundamentalists when our country is full of Christian fundamentalists. Do none understand that there are two sides to every war? Both sides say "God will help us win" Both sides hate each other, but both sides are made up of people just trying to survive and we invaded them first, so how do you think they feel?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GreenMod,

Well what do you suggest Meagan? Kill them all? Another war will make it all better? If you kill their leaders, they will regard them as martyrs of the cause.

Terrorism is an ideology. You cant kill a school of thoughts with bullets. What you have to do is stop people, as specially the young ones who are the majority of those who join terrorist organizations, from joining in the first place. They dont join because its in their blood to kill and hate americans. They join because they live in a shithole with no education and no hope for a future. They're sucked in by the lies preached to them by extremists.

Do you know how the taliban in Afghanistan came to be? Afghanistan was fighting the US's war against the Soviet Union during the Cold War. The US backed up the people of Afghanistan by giving them weapons. After peace was restablished, instead of the US sending support in the form of food supplies, medicines, and schools, the US completely ignored Afghanistan and now look what happened. It came back to bite you in the ass just like bin ladin.

Just imagine yourself living in a mud house. You go to sleep hungry every night. You have to walk miles for water, which isnt even close to clean. Your siblings are sick and you cant afford medicine. You dont have an education and the most you can hope for is to make some money begging off the streets. You have no future. Then this man comes up to you and tells you how you can improve you life. He tells you that if you join his honorable cause that you will make a luxuries living for yourself and you family. You will be respected by everyone and will be seen as a hero. You will be fighting the monsters who invaded and destroyed Iraq. You will be fighting the devils who wear the uniforms and use their advanced weapons to kill innocent people just like you and your family. And most important of all you will become a saint. Your reward will be in heaven. Doesnt that sound like a good offer?

We have to make sure that people dont have to make those decisions. Lets start with the basics. Food, water, medicine, and shelter. Most important is to build schools. Before you know it, you could have stopped an entire generation from becoming terrorists and instead they are know doctors and teachers who can help their own people.

I think its time to stop relying so much on those arrows and use those olive branches.

quote:

Originally posted by Capricorn_09:
Are you out there getting shot at everyday so that other people can have better lives? No? Then shut the fuck up.

Thank you Capricorn, beautifully said.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Wow, it sounds like you either don't read or you just watch Fox news. You know that there was never even a threat of "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. The information Bush intelligence got was inaccurate. I choose to not support any aspect of war.

Yes, there never were WMDs, you have that right, but not much else. It doesn't matter whether or not they were there, for this discussion, it matters that we all believed they were. We were all decieved so you have no right to insult the soldiers for falling for the same BS we all did.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
I do not support the soldiers because it is their job to kill others.

It is their job to protect the American people and their freedoms, at least that is what they signed up for. They cannot help if they are being misused, they can't say "I don't think so, I quit. Could you send me home now?" Because it won't happen. In fact, many soldiers were forced to stay over there and do stuff they didn't want to so they could come back, and when they did several fled to Canada to avoid being sent back as a mindless drone for a malevolent force.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Maybe if we made some profit off Iraq I wouldn't care, but the war is just another thing that sucks up our taxes.

Profit is the most horrible way to measure a war, even though most wars are started for that reason, this one included. Even if a government sees a need to cold-heartedly measure every human life lost by how much gold, money, or oil it gets them, regular people (human people, with hearts that are not surrounded in a hard, black shell of ice) should be a little bit more compassionate than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
If you are stupid enough to buy into this BS that we are keeping people safe here by invading 3rd world countries than you really must have your head up your ass.

1) Take a Midol and calm down, this is a discussion, not a personal attack. I disagree with you, either you're God Almighty or I'm not an idiot for that. (maybe for other reasons but NOT for disagreeing with some internet chat person) 2) Iraq is not a 3rd World country, although many of its citizens live in a manner that would indicate that. It has, sorry had, a working government with a real leader.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Do you even know how many empty threats have been made to our country?

Yeah plenty, and 9/11 was real empty.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Do you understand how difficult a terrorist attack is to accomplish?

Of course it's hard, we are one of the largest nations on earth with arguably the best military and security, but guess what, they still accomplished it didn't they?

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Stop being afraid of 9/11 that was a fluke.

A fluke that killed 2,740 Americans, give or take, and 236 foreigners discounting any terrorist involved in the attack.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Does it make any sense to invade a country that didn't attack us first.

With the faulty information provided by the Bush Administration, most, if not all, Americans were so incensed by 9/11 (I hope you had some stirring of feelings) that we took their information for granted, (Hint: That was what they were counting on.) we believed, at the time, that it must have been Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Go ahead and call every American alive an idiot, because we all fell for their dirty, underhanded, oil-grubbing tricks.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
You buy into media bullshit you ignorant sheep.

I would just like to reiterate my former statement advising you to take a Midol and cool your effin jets.

quote:

The only way to defeat terrorism is with education and support agianst poverty.

What do you propose to do about Islamic fundamentalists who believe that their actions are morally justified and "God's will"? Educate them?

quote:

Here's an answer to all your questions: don't make a life-changing decision without thinking about it first. do your own research instead of just listening to what everyone tells you. essentially what i'm trying to say here is don't be a dumbass.

Wow, how hypocritical of you Wolfie. You shouldn't advise others on something you are unwilling to do yourself...

Not everything is about war. Terrorism cannot and will not be defeated with war, violence, and killing. The only way to defeat terrorism is with education and support agianst poverty.

quote:

North Korea, Pakistan, China, Iran

They're working on them, hun. They can't do everything in one day.

quote:

why aren't we helping them too?

We are, or at least trying. But you can't just go invading every country you can get your planes to; it takes quite a bit of planning, and I don't think America is trying to get into another war just yet. They are, however, trying to work out ways to eliminate these threats, I'm sure. But this isn't about the war, is it? I believe I've already said that I don't necessarily support the war in Iraq, but I do support the people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for the better good of others. Are you out there getting shot at everyday so that other people can have better lives? No? Then shut the fuck up.

See, no one likes being called ignorant, you just demonstrated that to me... so how about instead of just saying "you're ignorant" because of our difference in opinion you just state your opinion, der da der.

Do you even know how many countries are as much as a threat to us as Iraq supposedly was? North Korea, Pakistan, China, Iran but are we invading them? No because the reason for us being in Iraq isn't about "safety" because if it was we would have done something drastic when North Korea stopped letting us into their nuclear facilities.

Nor did we go to war to save the people of Iraq because there are other coutries that have it a hell of a lot worse than the Iraqi's did so by your logic why aren't we helping them too?

I know why, because America doesn't care about such things as "security" or "welfare," they care about oil and money.

Just because we are at war doesn't mean there has to be some just reason for us to be there. That's why you by into the media because you have just repeated exactly what the news reporters on fox say. Grow a brain and use it.

The Iraqis are happy... lol now I know you watch foxy news.

quote:

you just watch Fox news

I hate Fox news.

quote:

You know that there was never even a threat of "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. The information Bush intelligence got was inaccurate.

Yes, we know that now; At the time we found out, we didn't know, and what kind of people just ignore a threat like that?

quote:

I am against killing what is alive and can feel.

You and I differ on that part.

quote:

We invaded them, that's the reason why it is so unstable right now. Though I will say that Saddam was not a good leader he was the only one that could force all the sects in Iraq to function together, now that he's gone (thanks to us) their country is in chaos.

He still shouldn't have been in charge of that country. He was absolutely terrible. Disgusting. I'm happy he's gone. And they're in chaos now, because it's still the beginning; Things are usually in chaos when an entire society is trying to change to things they're not accustomed to. Wait a while, things will work out.

quote:

Saddam was the only thing that prevented the Sunni and the Shites and the Kurds from killing each other

That's right -- they only wanted to kill us.

quote:

I don't support soldiers or wars that in no way protect my freedom

They're trying to protect others. Isn't that good enough, or does it have to be all about you all the time? I thought you said you were against killing what is alive and can feel -- don't you know that the people we're fighting only want to kill the innocent? They don't give a damn who dies either, but as long as it's not YOU they're trying to kill it's okay, right?

quote:

If you are stupid enough to by into this bs that we are keeping people safe here by invading 3rd world countries

I'm pretty sure the Iraqis are happy we're there, and I doubt they liked it better when Saddam was in power.

quote:

Do you even know how many empty threats have been made to our country.

Probably a lot. But there are a lot of empty bomb threats against schools too, but every once in a while one blows up right? So I think those threats are worth looking into, for the sake of keeping people safe.

quote:

Do you understand how difficult a terrorist attack is to accomplish.

Very difficult, but there've been quite a few in the past few years haven't there?

quote:

Does it make any sense to invade a country that didn't attack us first.

Quite a bit of sense, actually. It's not all about us, it's about helping other people too. Are you saying we should just let the genocide in Darfur continue since they're not directly attacking America? Sounds pretty selfish, if you ask me.

quote:

Maybe I would support the troops if they were actually fighting the al Qida and not stupid insurgents

They're trying to get to al Qaeda, but it's not as easy as it sounds, hun.

Wow, it sounds like you either don't read or you just watch Fox news. You know that there was never even a threat of "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. The information Bush intelligence got was inaccurate. I choose to not support any aspect of war. I am against killing what is alive and can feel. I do not support the soldiers because it is their job to kill others. We invaded them, that's the reason why it is so unstable right now. Though I will say that Saddam was not a good leader he was the only one that could force all the sects in Iraq to function together, now that he's gone (thanks to us) their country is in chaos. Saddam was the only thing that prevented the Sunni and the Shites and the Kurds from killing each other.

I don't support soldiers or wars that in no way protect my freedom and are a total waste of my money. Maybe if we made some profit off Iraq I wouldn't care, but the war is just another thing that sucks up our taxes.

If you are stupid enough to by into this bs that we are keeping people safe here by invading 3rd world countries than you really must have your head up your ass. Do you even know how many empty threats have been made to our country. Do you understand how difficult a terrorist attack is to accomplish. Stop being afraid of 9/11 that was a fluke. Does it make any sense to invade a country that didn't attack us first.

Maybe I would support the troops if they were actually fighting the al Qida and not stupid insurgents.

You buy into media bullshit you ignorant sheep.

You sound extremely ignorant. I don't support the war in Iraq either, but I definitely support the troops fighting there. Do you know why they're there? They thought Saddam Huseein had weapons of mass destruction, which created a huge threat. They went there to try to eliminate that threat. As I'm sure you know, Saddam is no longer in power. Many would wonder why we're still there, right? Well, Iraq is still unstable. There are still people dying, there's still terrorism. Our troops are over there fighting for safety and freedom. Sure they knew there was the possibility of going to war, that they might lose their life, and the fact that their willing to do that for our country, or for Iraq, is amazing and should be respected. As I said, they're fighting for safety and freedom, and if you don't support that, I hate to think what kind of person you are.

Here's an answer to all your questions: don't make a life-changing decision without thinking about it first. do your own research instead of just listening to what everyone tells you. essentially what i'm trying to say here is don't be a dumbass.

quote:

Originally posted by april421:
Any person who willingly risks their life for the lives of others should be respected, honored, and supported; like firefighters, the police, etc.

I completely agree with you, anyone who is willing to give up any opportunity to go out and make a crap-load of money for themselves, to help save/protect others is a hero in my book.