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Once again i will reiterate this is a war CLPO, shit like this happens ON BOTH SIDES and more so on the terrorist side if you haven't notice how many televised beheadings they have done.

Fucking Hell! so your saying that because they behead hostages and captured soldiers we should go out and kill women and children in the streets? We should lower our soldiers including yourself to the level of scum? is that what your saying? 'we can be bad because they were bad first?"

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if you have ever been in a firefight, have lost many of your best friends to an enemy that attacks and runs and gets away a lot of the time then maybe you would possibly understand why these marines could have done something like you describe.

That's no fucking excuse to kill innocent people! Under any fucking conditons! It doesn't matter if your terrorists killed your mommy and daddy and your fucking dog, you don't kill civilians! Soldiers are supposed to know that, maybe you were sick for that part of boot of job training? Further more it's attitudes like that, that allowed things like My-Lai(vietnam) and Haditha to happen! Dammit soldier boy you remember that fucking oath you swore on entering your postion? Your and the rest of the military are to defend our nation not kill a bunch of innocents who's only crime is living in one of the world's largest free fire zones. Maybe those Marines at Haditha forgot that oath, maybe those soldiers at My-Lai forgot their job, but that's no excuse. Your best friend gets killed don't take it out on civvies go hunt down and blow the shot out of the men who made it happen.

Oh and you wanna take care of terrorism? start getting oil from canada or invent an cheaper alternate fuel source. Then the whole world will leave the middle east except maybe in israel because no one will care any more. Then the sunnis and shiites can blow the ever living hell out of each other with out bothering the rest of us because their fields of fire are a little to close to our oil supplies

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You obviously don't. Everyone who worked for Saddam was a member of the Baath Party. It was required to have membership in order to work in government. Not unlike Soviet Russia and the Communist Party.

.......and your point?

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This was no accident. Accidents don't involve execution-style killings. Indeed, the people in Haditha could have been responsible for the IED which killed a Marine. But then, there's the distinct possibility that they weren't.

Once again i will reiterate this is a war CLPO, shit like this happens ON BOTH SIDES and more so on the terrorist side if you haven't notice how many televised beheadings they have done. It doesn't mean it's okay for it to happen but if you have ever been in a firefight, have lost many of your best friends to an enemy that attacks and runs and gets away a lot of the time then maybe you would possibly understand why these marines could have done something like you describe. A lot of these soldiers are frusterated as hell because these terrorist are doing EVERYTHING under the sun to stay alive to kill another day, you want to talk about inhumaine? Try looking at the terrorist regime: MOST of the terrorist in Iraq are from neigboring countries blowing up Iraqis. Most of the recruitment is done by threat of killing ones family. Through numerous studies and questioning the Department of Intelligence dicovered that the terrorists force people who cross the border into Iraq to become freedom fighters or they must go back home, some even go as far as threatening to kill the family they brought along with them and some even kidnap people and force them into terrorism. We could have avoided this whole thing by not invading Iraq and letting the terrorist group gain even more momentum and allow them to carry out another attack on America sure why not, but Bush decided to act.

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First off, yes, there have been other, smaller attacks. Do London and Madrid ring any bells? Furthermore, a group like al Qaeda plans out their attacks in great detail. They're patient. A major attack like 9/11 hasn't occurred yet not because al Qaeda is crippled (trust me, you can't cripple an organization based on sleeper cells) but because they're biding their time or gathering resources for the next big attack. It may not come for another five years. It could come tomorrow. We simply don't know.

The job of our president contrary to popular belief is not to protect OTHER countries, his job is to protect our country and he has done a damn fine job at that. Next, thats exactly what they want to you to believe because like in our case, if they show weakness then they lose support and recruits. Why would i trust a, how old are you 21? 22? year old who goes to college, probably reads blogs all day and has never even been to iraq leta lone been in ANY war, over the department of intelligence which is made of thousands of people doing independent research on the issue nd have personal expreience. Al-Zarqawi himself stated that America is crippling the terrorist network and now the only way to gain momentum is to turn America on itself or other major countries. Who was once the top terrorist in the terrorist network to say that the Infidels are winning the battle is quite astounding, it's too bad our media hates this war and loves appeasing to the terrorists otherwise this would have been published and televised globally numerous times.

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Great! So let's spend money on curing heart disease instead of stationing soldiers in countries that no longer need or want our help.

Are you kidding me?! Iraq wants us there, Iraqis are not afraid of each other. This sectarian violence that the media likes to protray as a recent civil war cause by this war, has been going on for 100's of years! Over one small believe of which of the 12 imams are dieties. This sectarian violence was spured moreso recently and has been spured on for centuries not by us but by neighboring countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, Iran wanting a Shia dominated Iraq and Saudi Arabia wanting a Sunni dominated Iraq. Iraq is afraid of various terrorist groups that are killing them every day, not themselves. Iran and Saudi Arabia are taking advantage of this period of instability in Iraq and have helped thrown it into chaos, but all of this runs back to a lack of support and pressure from the UN.

You just proved my point, CLPO. You don't spend money trying to cure heart disease....you stop shoving your mouth with the wrong foods, it's a choice not something that is cured by medicine. Iraq is not something you just throw money at, just like Korea isn't a country you just throw sanctions at and in Clintons era money and a freakin nuclear power plant proposals. You stop these problems specifically by attacking them, by appeasing to the enemy time after time we are only holding off the inevitable and the inevitable will cost much more lives than this SMALL war as caused.

If Iraq didn't want democracy then WHY in hell did 72 percent of the country go to elections and voice their opinion in a country that is still far behind in technology and transportation and who were threatened by terrorists NOT to vote? How can you speak for millions of Iraqis and say that they cannot have a democracy when you haven't even BEEN THERE!? I have! I saw the hope in these peoples eyes, especially the children who i gave food too on convoys. What crushed it was terrorism from outside crountries, what crushed it was the lack of support and the many countries that backed out of their commitment to Iraq and pulled out much needed military support. What crushed it was the imense pressure from other arab states on clerical leaders inside Iraq to fight against their brothers. What crushed it is people like you who have no faith in what democracy is capable of. Democracy in your opinion cannot work because you think that it will be exactly like ours, wrong, thats not democracy. Japan and Germany both have VERY different democracies from America, Japan for example has a prime minister but also has an emperor in order to maintain traditional values and uphold the longest lasting imperial family in history. Democracy IS possible in these war torn countries, it's too bad we don't have the patience to see it through.
CLPO, i want to know what your scoures are because your arguements are strong but they seem that they are from a viewpoint that is "outside the box" so to speak.

Tell me genius what you think we should do about terorism?

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if we treated this war like we fought WWII and WWI, there simply wouldn't be a sunni triangle of death or sectarian violence for that matter.

You said yourself that fighting this war as we fought the first and second world wars is impossible. There is no distinct enemy. Unless you wanted to eradicate the entire Middle East. And Indonesia. And most of Minnesota. Fighting against Islamist terrorism as we fought against the Nazis would result in more terrorists. You don't need to have a political party membership and a fancy uniform to blow people up. You just need to be really, really pissed off. And nothing gets people pissed off more than watching an imperialistic and evil nation methodically taking over the Holy Land (not my view of the situation, mind you, but that's how fundamentalist Muslims see it).

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People are dying for reasons that are much more preventable than a war, i.e. heart disease which is the leading killer in the US.

Great! So let's spend money on curing heart disease instead of stationing soldiers in countries that no longer need or want our help.

Of course, I never said I wanted to prevent people from dying in war. I merely pointed out that the deaths of innocent civilians in a war that doesn't concern them is murder. You can take what you like from that.

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You seem to be forgeting that these same terrorists have slaughter thousands of innocent lives.

What terrorists? Where did I mention terrorists? Not every man, woman, and child in Iraq is a terrorist. What happened in Haditha is inexcusable. Unarmed women and children were shot and killed with no resistance. And there's photo and video evidence from everyone from the AP to the Hammurabi Human Rights Group. Hardly justifiable, in any situation. This was no accident. Accidents don't involve execution-style killings. Indeed, the people in Haditha could have been responsible for the IED which killed a Marine. But then, there's the distinct possibility that they weren't.

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Hmmm...lets see here, have we had any attacks since 911?

First off, yes, there have been other, smaller attacks. Do London and Madrid ring any bells? Furthermore, a group like al Qaeda plans out their attacks in great detail. They're patient. A major attack like 9/11 hasn't occurred yet not because al Qaeda is crippled (trust me, you can't cripple an organization based on sleeper cells) but because they're biding their time or gathering resources for the next big attack. It may not come for another five years. It could come tomorrow. We simply don't know.

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who said he had to, do you know how many people worked for this guy in the Baath party?!

You obviously don't. Everyone who worked for Saddam was a member of the Baath Party. It was required to have membership in order to work in government. Not unlike Soviet Russia and the Communist Party.

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That little rat bastard had been giving us trouble for the past 2 decades and finally we got a president to do something about it and finish the job.

You know, we could have avoided the whole thing had the first Bush finished the job. Saddam massacred the Kurds while we were still in Saudi Arabia and we did nothing. I call that a failure of the administration then, not a success of the current administration. Cleaning up a mess (and making a bigger one while we're at it) doesn't qualify as success.

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When are you gonna get it in your little head that we attacked Iraq to impose Democracy on a the HUB of the middle east and to keep these other countries in check.

Oh, wow! Really? I had no clue our intentions were that noble! ...or idiotic. You seriously think that democracy forced in a region known for its dislike of it would last? Democracy is not something that comes quickly. You need to foster democratic sentiment in an area before you can get a democratic government to work. And that takes time. Not three years.

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you my friend are a tool of the media like so many in this Country today.

I'm a tool? I don't watch the news, I read the newspaper for the comics, and the majority of my time on the Internet is spent arguing with people like you. The media is something I rarely encounter. No, I get my information--as I believe I said before--from verifiable and credible sources, preferably as unbiased as they come. I make sure I get the real information, not the happy stuff everyone wants to hear or the bad stuff that sells. Think before you assume, buddy. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a slave to the media.

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Another thing try not believing everything your proffessors tell you they aren't omniscient gods

Er, what? Assuming again, are we? Why is so hard for you to understand that I make my own opinions? I mean, do you really not come across many people that think for themselves?

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Or were you looking for something along the lines of "I will never again trust the media and blindly accept everything my Congressperson tells me,

Music to my ears my friend. You seem to be suffering from extreme political correctness. Obviously you haven't learned from history because if you did then you would understand that if we treated this war like we fought WWII and WWI, there simply wouldn't be a sunni triangle of death or sectarian violence for that matter.

Once again you failed to see the big picture. I pointed out that your arguments for all the innocent people dying in Iraq were something we should use as means for pulling out of Iraq. I will say again so you can understand. War is war, people die, get used to it. People are dying for reasons that are much more preventable than a war, i.e. heart disease which is the leading killer in the US.

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So what's stopping things like Haditha from happening again? If it's just about simple suspicion, a paranoid soldier could be completely justified in massacring an entire village simply because he thought they were looking at him funny. And you can't seriously tell me that's not wrong. Well, you could, but I would never take you seriously again.

You seem to be forgeting that these same terrorists have slaughter thousands of innocent lives. Also you don't know what happened at Haditha, only these marines understand, the fog of war can be decieving. And with a war that is becoming more and moer unpopular by the day the media would be glad to satisfy your taste buds with a nice twist in the story. Do you even know how thin and fragile the walls of Iraqi houses are. All of the material on houses i encountered besides Saddam's Palaces were made of thin plaster, a bullet would go right through those walls. For all we know those same people that were killed in their homes were the same people who blew off the IED. Also the soldiers were being fired upon within these houses. This paralells what happened in the Israeli Hezbollah war. Hezbollah rockets were NOT aimed at military targets, they were aimed at civilian targets, "lets see how many Jews we can kill with one rocket." Israeli rockets were aimed at military targets that were unfortunately barricaded by civilian buildings and who got blamed and torn to pieces by the media? Israel got ALL of the blame and was told to give up defending themselves from an enemy that struck first!

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Yes, it has taught me that instead of blindly attacking uninvolved nations in retaliation for an attack perpetrated by people of other nations, we should work to eliminate the conditions that create the kind of hatred that fuels such attacks.

Hmmm...lets see here, have we had any attacks since 911? I'll let you answer that. We have seriously crippled the terrorist network why? Because we kept the war over there. Just because a board of people who have no ties to the military or even been to Iraq to see what we aer doing there and whos SOLE purpose is to destroy our military said that Saddam sisn't have a connection to terroism, who cares! who said he had to, do you know how many people worked for this guy in the Baath party?! Thousands, and all it took was one of them to fund terrorism because they had so much money coming out of their ears that they couldn't hear the 14 resolutions we threw at them. You have to look at the big picture as to why we attacked Iraq primarily. That little rat bastard had been giving us trouble for the past 2 decades and finally we got a president to do something about it and finish the job. It was orignally proposed that this war was out of retaliation, the President made it so because it was the only way to get people to fight a war that they didn't understand and couldn't for that matter because of that magic word information security. Iran, Syria, and Lebanon all understand that this war was not out of retaliation, they're not idiots and it's why they are pissed we are in thier back yard. The middle east has been in shambles ever since just after WWII and now countries like Iran are a major threat to the world. When are you gonna get it in your little head that we attacked Iraq to impose Democracy on a the HUB of the middle east and to keep these other countries in check. It has NOTHING to do with retaliation and ALL to do with a slow process that with determination can change a region that has been torn with violence for centuries into a country that can talk first before they shoot. But unfortunately people don't have the patience like we did in WWII with Japan and Germany. Both of these coutries have created a unique democracy that works for them and now you have Japan which is one of the richest, technologically advanced nations in the world. I suggest you do some more reading and try to get rid of some of that post modern grade political correctness out of your ears and start listening to the music cause you my friend are a tool of the media like so many in this Country today. Another thing try not believing everything your proffessors tell you they aren't omniscient gods for petes sake they put their pants on just like everyone else.

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more people have died in the united states from falling off of ladders than have in the entirety of the war

We're in a war with the ladders now, are we? The two are completely unrelated. More people fall off their beds and die than the amount of Iraqis who are blown up each day, but does that mean anything? No. And I also can't envision anything than dying in the crossfire of a war that has absolutely nothing to do with your welfare. And don't tell me that we're fighting the terrorists just to give every Iraqi schoolboy a ruler and a pat on the head.

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but if a soldier suspects a civilian might use hostile force againts the soldier or his or her's fellow soldiers then lethal force can be used.

So what's stopping things like Haditha from happening again? If it's just about simple suspicion, a paranoid soldier could be completely justified in massacring an entire village simply because he thought they were looking at him funny. And you can't seriously tell me that's not wrong. Well, you could, but I would never take you seriously again.

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I will ask you, CLPO, has history taught you a lesson today?

Yes, it has taught me that instead of blindly attacking uninvolved nations in retaliation for an attack perpetrated by people of other nations, we should work to eliminate the conditions that create the kind of hatred that fuels such attacks. It has also taught me that we should work to eliminate Islamist terrorism at the source by encouraging religious tolerance instead of invading whatever country we see fit and setting the terrorist against us even more.

Or were you looking for something along the lines of "I will never again trust the media and blindly accept everything my Congressperson tells me, even if I later find they are wrong"?

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So, since killing civilians is unlawful under the accepted rules of engagement, killing civilians is murder. And civilians die in wars all the time, due to actions by all sides. It is true that, in the case of Iraq, more civilians are killed by insurgents than by Americans, but there are still civilian deaths due to poorly aimed artillery, cross-fire, or mistaken identity. Or just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, as in the case of Haditha.

You need to read the rules of engagement again or find a moer credable source because killing civilians is not againts the rules of engagement, killing innocent civilians is, but if a soldier suspects a civilian might use hostile force againts the soldier or his or her's fellow soldiers then lethal force can be used.

I seriously don't want to hear anything about innocent civilians dying in the Iraq war because more people have died in the united states from falling off of ladders than have in the entirety of the war. 10 fold that have died because they chose to stuff their mouths with fatty foods, and sugar their entire lives so don't give me this crap; it's war, people die. There are people all over this planet that die for reasons much worse than a crossfire in a war. You want to talk about death: more people died in one day in WWII than have in the entirety of this war. We have back out of this war and ultamately lost it. We have seriously cripple the terrorist network but terrorism will come back in full force, stronger and better equipped, the difference between this war and the one that is inevatable is that a lot more lives will be lost in the next one. We learned this WWII by apeasing to Hitler's demands for years, we made him much more powerful than he should have been before the war even started, if we would have stopped him earlier much more lives would have been saved. By appeasing to terrorists demands and giving in to pressure only makes them stronger, Osama Bin Laden himself perdicted we wouldn't make it through this warm on terrorism. I will ask you, CLPO, has history taught you a lesson today?

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Murder and kill are two VERY different words

Which all depend on the context in which they are taken. I thought they taught the difference between subjectivity and objectivity in school.

Anyways, here is what the Free Dictionary has to say about murder, and here is what it says about killing.

Not that different in some respects, are they? Now, if we take murder to be unlawfully killing someone (as the dictionary says), then technically, some wars could be considered murder. For instance, a war must be declared by congress in order to be legal. Any war not actually declared is therefore illegal and any killing done in that war would be murder. That's a bit simplified, but I don't have time to go into that further. Also, in war (a declared one), it is only lawful to kill the enemy. Killing civilians is unlawful, even if the civilians are sometimes the enemy. We ran into that problem in Vietnam and we're running into it in Iraq. How do you tell a civilian from a civilian trying to kill you? They don't always need to have a gun. Loose shirts are surprisingly good at hiding explosive vests, so the guy who gave you a haircut in the morning might be trying to blow up your checkpoint in the afternoon. Then again, he might not.

So, since killing civilians is unlawful under the accepted rules of engagement, killing civilians is murder. And civilians die in wars all the time, due to actions by all sides. It is true that, in the case of Iraq, more civilians are killed by insurgents than by Americans, but there are still civilian deaths due to poorly aimed artillery, cross-fire, or mistaken identity. Or just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, as in the case of Haditha.

War may not always be murder, but it can sometimes be, especially in cases where it's almost impossible to tell if a civilian is innocent or about to blow you up.

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Necromancy is a no-no

Unless you're finn but let's not go there. Does she come on anymore?

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Peace doesn't not exists without war, just like good does not exist without evil.

Mmmm, as much as I would like to disagree with this and say that we could have peace without war I think you may have a point.

I think wars should be used as infrequently as humanly possible, but I do think that they are necessary. Some of them.

haha, take a look at the webster dictionary. Murder and kill are two VERY different words my little friend.

...I love peacenicks, they're so...happy

Life is not fair, get used to it and life defenitely isn't perfect like you want it to be. As long as humans can think for themselves there will ALWAYS be war. Peace doesn't not exists without war, just like good does not exist without evil.

boosting the military budget is to ensure our own protection. No one likes war. no one. if you are going to tell me that a conservative likes war more than a liberal, you're a fucking idiot... excuse my french. seriously though, bush isnt an evil dictator hatching a scheme to kill his own citizens. does that make sense? REALLY SERIOUSLY? DOES IT?

I wish you stupid people, whoever you are, whatever standpoint you have, would stop arguing that advancing the military budget = murder, and that conservatives like war. That is so incredibly narrowminded that i am going to go cremate myself because i have lost faith that human beings are any part of intelligent.

To stop military spending, we would assume that all of a sudden, terrorists, North Korea, MExico, Venezuela, China, Iran, and the rest of the world love us and want to be at peace with us. NOOOOOOOOOOOO We have put ourselves in this position and when i say us, i mean the entire world, and unfortunately to simply say "whoops nevermind i really like everyone and want them to have a military while i dont," is moronic. The fact of the matter is the US could very well attack and destroy any country in the world without problems. We could conquer anyone we want, erradicate the entire civilian population, and do we? no. no. no. no. no. All you morons who think iraq is imperialistic, just shoot yourself in the face and go bury yourself somewhere away from those of us with brains.

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and if they attack (bombing noise) their out of here

The words "have you heard of 9/11?" come directly to mind

also don't revive threads that haven't been posted on in close to 3 years. Necromancy is a no-no

Ok, so here's the thing.... we should have never been sent to Iran, Iraq, any of it but, we were and now we have to deal with the mess we made over there by trying to be "the good country". If you want my opinion we should have left them alone and said "hey, you want to be fanatical muslims and attack our country then fine but don't expect to have no reprocussions for what you do" and if they attack (bombing noise) their out of here... Abortion hmmmm that should be left up to the woman.. In the first tri-mester a baby has no sense of feeling or emotion so I say that it's fine.. Also if you're raped do you honestly want to walk around with a living,crying, breathing reminder everyday of your life?..... I didn't think so.

I will try to give you a view into the conservative mind, without getting argumentative and staying civil.
When it comes down to it, we come before them. We want America to be strong, and yes, war is murder, but it's also necessary to protect against someone murdering your family and friends and countrymen. And most Afghanis we kill are not rooting for us, they are attacking us or rooting for those who attack us. There are very, very few civilian deaths. Definitely fewer than 3000...is it better to kill a few Afghanis on accident and prevent another 9/11, or sit around and let Osama continue killing Americans, and the Taliban and Saddam to continue killing thousands of their own people? That's what most conservatives think about it, but of course there are differences.

Clinton sent us into two conflicts in which we had absolutely no busienss being in. If you left-wing hypocrites (I know, that's redundant) are so anti-war, why didn't you protest Clinton sending into countries in which we had no business? At least, with Afghanistan and Iraq, there was some degree of national defense, although we may disagree to the extent. You liberals have shown that you care more about electing your man than protecting the country, and that you hide behind our military when it suits you.

Speaking for myself I personally believe the war is wrong not because I don't believe in the killing of people, but I don't believe in the murdering of people who had nothing to do with September 11.Alot of people say that if you believe that then you are turning your back on the soldiers. I don't believe this, I support the soldiers fully because they went over there to fight and protect the country but even now they have said that they don't understand why they are there or what they are doing there. The war to me is just a front for Bush's personal vendetta against the man that tried to kill his Dad. In the beginning of the war they said that Saddam had "weapons of mass destruction". But even those who support Bush should think about this. Saddam is a murder who hates America if he had weapons of mass destruction we would probably know by now because he would have sent them over here. Also to those that support Bush, I strongly believe in the saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but when you look at the facts and the coincidinces and the misinformation that has been going on since his term started, it is clear to me that something is not right. And I also thought the way Bush slipped our focus from Osama to Saddam was very slick, you can't catch one guy so focus on another. Also as in the election before as someone pointed out earlier, yes Kerry may not be the best but who is the greater of the two evils? I say Bush because even though this is some forty odd years later it seems like a repeat of Vietnam another time when America decided to help someone and it didn't work out right. If nothing else everyone should think about the fact that this war is supposed to be over. What happens if the war stretches and the next thing you know you're getting drafted to fight for...well you won't know what will you?

I think democracy is great. And patriotism is a good thing too. But there's a fine line between patriotism and toxic nationalism. The patriotic thing to do is voice your opinion - especially when the subject is something as important as war. You don't have to support our president to support our troops. You republicans would fail your own patriotism test. You didn't rush to support our president when he sent military forces into Kosovo. Actually, all you ******* republicans did was sit on the sidelines and criticize President Clinton while our forces were fighting a war. So, you can take your "patriotism" crap and shove it!