quote:

"You're wrong and I'm right no matter what you say or what the facts are LALALALALAIAMNOTLISTENINGLALALALA". It's a fairly common reaction among delusional ideologues.

for some reason this statement seems highly ironic to me coming from you

Nevermind MANPADS modern RPG's and how terrorists have looted American bodies for NVG's and grenades, body armor, etc...

The best part about it is that your ignorant enough to assume much young padawan... For example:

The notion that the State Department is not responsible for the WMD fuck up... How do you explain the Secretary of State appealing to the UN about WMD's... That is state department you know, they have their own intel service. How convienent that they find their own fuck ups and blame it on someone else.

And the thought that the CIA had a larger role to play in 9-11 then they did... while the terrorists may have been foreign... the fact remains that the FBI dropped the ball on most of the warning signs that led to 9-11... now because of their little screw up, many of those duties have been relegated to AFOSI.

And the OSS has been around since Bush I back when the CIA was working with the Kurds to attack Saddam... way back in 89-91... it was just dormant.

And yes I am a survival grad... also known as SV-80-A so I was waterboarded... it is extremely effective and while it gives you the illusion of drowning I assure you it produces no such effect. (I lasted for about 4 min... longer than the longest al-quida member has ever lasted) But yes I am a sadist... cowardly... not so much.

And don't play stupid with me... telling me I hate the troops, thats an insult right there... and the DoD has every right to refuse death benefits because the armor that soldiers were buying was not better... just more comfortable.

And your numbers for troops are way off... there is 140k in Iraq and Afghanistan... what about Kuwait, UAE, Turkey, All the STAN countries, Diego Garcia, Quatar... get my drift?

quote:

Originally posted by phantom119:
I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your mindless crap because there is no way your going to change your mind even though Hydrok, amp, and I have all shown you facts and logic. Please shut up.

Which facts and what logic are you referring to?

Don't worry, I do understand that what you've written should be read as "You're wrong and I'm right no matter what you say or what the facts are LALALALALAIAMNOTLISTENINGLALALALA". It's a fairly common reaction among delusional ideologues.

quote:

If it was first used in WW2, it's WW2 tech

right and the AK-47 while based off a stolen german design was changed significantly by the russians before being put in to main line production and the modern version is diffrent than that on some slight levels mainly caliber (7.62 or 5.56) rates of fire, accuracy it has been imporved significantly from the first Kalashnikov that came off the assembly line so it's not "WW2 technology" it would fall under cold war technology

quote:

If it was first used in WW2, it's WW2 tech. Just because people still use knives today doesn't make the knife a "modern" invention.

an AK-47 is a modern weapon that even rivals our own M16. RPG's while from WWII, have been improved vastly, making them a modern weapon. Knives can be improved as well, different coatings etc.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your mindless crap because there is no way your going to change your mind even though Hydrok, amp, and I have all shown you facts and logic. Please shut up.

quote:

Originally posted by Hydrok:
Lets just clear some things up before you insult anyone else who doesn't deserve it:

If you read carefully, you'll see that I didn't insult anyone. I was just following your presented logic, and asking if you held the implicated conclusions.

quote:

The State Department and the CIA are the ones responsible for fucking up the WMD thing; not the military.

Actually, the State Department was the agency that discovered many of the falsehoods in the presented reasons for war.

And much of the pro-war intelligence, especially that later found to be false, was disseminated by the Office of Special Services, an intra-Pentagon agency set up by Donald Rumsfeld. One of the questions asked about the OSS at the time was why it was created, as it duplicated many of the services provided by the CIA, except under the sole control of Rumsfeld. This remains an unanswered question.

quote:

The CIA only does foreign intel collection... the thought that the CIA had any part in fucking up 9-11 is a myth, get it through your head right now.

Since the 9-11 operation was conceived, commanded, and funded from abroad, ie the CIA's jurisdiction, I wonder how you can honestly make such an assertion.

quote:

The military has done nothing wrong this entire time... save a little misconduct here and there that gets blown out of proportion.

Oh, boy... you do know that Abu Gharib was run by a general brought from Guantanamo Bay, specifically to "Gitmo-ize" Iraq prisons? And that it was only after his installation that rumors of mistreatment [later substantiated] emerged?

All indications (and they're all we have, since the US military won't let anyone into Gitmo to confirm their statements - what are they hiding?) show that Abu Gharib was (is) part of an overall DoD program - not the work of "a few bad apples".

quote:

Now to quickly run through other things your complaining about such as body armor... troops are buying their own because they feel that the stuff they are given is too bulky and non-conformal... so they buy dragon skin or something that is more comfortable but sacrifices some protection. They dont have to buy their own body armor.

And yet they're threatened with loss of death benefits if they use Pinnacle's Dragon Skin instead of standard-issue armor? Even as at least 9 US Generals in Iraq wear the stuff themselves, according to Pinnacle. Why is it standard-issue not enough for generals, but enough for the average grunt? And don't say money - I again refer you to the $498.3 billion/year that's available beyond pay.

By the by, you may be interested in thDoD study that says that 80% of Marine deaths from upper body wounds in Iraq could have been prevented with a $260/person armor upgrade - does that sound like sufficient protection to you? I would think the soldiers risking their lives should have the very best in equipment - why do you hate the troops?

quote:

WP is not against the geneva convention... besides the US didn't sign it anyway so who cares.

Used as an anti-personnel device, it is considered a chemical weapon - and the US invaded Iraq because Saddam used chemical weapons and was therefore an evil, evil man, remember?

quote:

I don't give a flying fuck if we torture or not... waterboarding is friggin cool. It gets good information in a fast amount of time in a world where Targets of Opportunity are key.

I would again refer you to the CIA manuals stating otherwise.

And have you experienced waterboarding? Seems to me that's the only way you could know if it was "cool" - otherwise, you're just some cowardly sadist, aren't you?

quote:

And I explained the stop loss program, and if you cant read what I told you, I would suppose that would be your problem. But under the executive order of the president and under his powers after congress gave him the blank check for war all those clauses in the contract become valid.

Again, I refer you to the text of the contract in question, which I quoted. If you can't address those relevant clauses, then it would seem to be you who does not understand "stop-loss", yes?

And war has not been declared by the US Congress, and therefore the President has no extra "wartime" powers. If you can find a declaration stating otherwise, I'd love to see it.

quote:

Originally posted by ampmaster:
Be that as it may that's still not WW2 tech most of that was purchased from the USSR or given to them by the USSR during the cold war that is not WW2

If it was first used in WW2, it's WW2 tech. Just because people still use knives today doesn't make the knife a "modern" invention.

quote:

what is with you and this bridge?

Brooklyn bridge scam? Famously used on new immigrants around the turn of the century? Hello?

Essentially, I'm saying that if Hydrok believes that the Pentagon can be relied upon to accurately and truthfully account for all of its actions, then he should fully trust me to sell him a bridge, and hand over whatever amount I deem fit, no questions asked.

One never relies on an interested party to fairly ajudicate the conflict in question - why not allow convicts to set their own sentences? Maybe we should have trusted Germany to redraw the borders after WW2. It's a ridiculous assumption.

quote:

Originally posted by phantom119:
and for how many soldiers are you thinking of? and that isn't even support staff and logistics. I'm not in the military yet but even I understand that a war is expensive and requires things like food and water. Ammunition costs money, gas costs money, victory costs money.

That's for 140 000 troops, which is, as I understand, the current level of troops in Iraq.

Armor costs money, too - but with $498.3 billion floating around, one wonders why the troops don't have it?

quote:

because liberals like you want to close down companies that suppply those to the troops. you run them bankrupt. And not just Arms, but you also close down things like the vacine companies. Why? because you hate corporations.

Uh, ok... show me one post where I talked about corporations? And, as I understand it, there are lots of firms selling body armor, which is why individual soldiers are buying it themselves. Why the Army isn't providing it, I've no idea.

quote:

Can you account for every cent spent in your allowance? please give us one right down to the cent with tax and everything you've purchased in the past year. That is the equivalent of what your asking the pentagon.

Right, I'm going to give you my tax return. But I can tell you that it has a far smaller discrepancy than 25% - that's why I'm not being audited.

I think the rest of your analogy is ridiculous enough to stand on its own.

quote:

Oh! those people. You mean the people who were murdered and butchered under Sadamn's regime.

Yes, those people. What's your point?

Oh, and they're currently being detained without charge, beaten, tortured, and having the same done to family members by the US military. Abu Gharib? Helloooo?

quote:

should they tell the truth so you can slam them even more? You are never satisfied. Besides, WP is perfectly ok and torture is a very viable way to get information.

Actually, the CIA field manual says that torture is a very ineffective way to get info - the subject just says whatever the torturer wants to hear. And WP, used as an anti-personnel weapon, is considered a chemical weapon - like the kind we overthrew Saddam for using, because doing that made him an evil, evil man. Remember?

Oh, shock and horror, I'm asking that a government agency be held accountable for its actions! I thought conservatives were pro-accountability? Wait, that's not conservatives, that's "sane people".

quote:

says the one that probably reads the NYT, and watches CNN.

Which is apparently 2 more sources of information than you use. Wow.

so much for fun for the groundpounders

No need to bring a laser... GPS/INS guidance

you bring the bomb I'll bring a laser designator

quote:

WP is not against the geneva convention... besides the US didn't sign it anyway so who cares.

nor is it even considered a chemical weapon. according to a pentagon press release it is considered a conventional weapon

I dont know whats up with the bridge but I would love to drop a GBU-15 on it

Lets just clear some things up before you insult anyone else who doesn't deserve it:

The State Department and the CIA are the ones responsible for fucking up the WMD thing; not the military.

The FBI is the ones that fucked up 9-11... you can't deny that... see the funny thing is that when people including CNN, NYT, FOX, MSNBC talk about intel they tend to lump everyone together under one giant group... Well we are not, we are completely separate organizations with links that feed necessary information from one to another.

For example, being in the military I can not collect intel on Americans. The FBI can, now the FBI can not share any of their info with us unless said American goes overseas at which point we can monitor.

The CIA only does foreign intel collection... the thought that the CIA had any part in fucking up 9-11 is a myth, get it through your head right now.

The FBI and the CIA both suffer from the same egotistical mindset as most detectives do: "It's my case, my bust, I dont want anyone else in on it" so they keep stuff to themselves so they can get credit for it... So no one is checking it, and it gets delivered to the Sec. of State then Colin Powell... the anus then gets up and looks at a bunch of metal tubes and says... those are missile bodies... For all we know they could have been sewer pipes.

The military has done nothing wrong this entire time... save a little misconduct here and there that gets blown out of proportion.

Now to quickly run through other things your complaining about such as body armor... troops are buying their own because they feel that the stuff they are given is too bulky and non-conformal... so they buy dragon skin or something that is more comfortable but sacrifices some protection. They dont have to buy their own body armor.

WP is not against the geneva convention... besides the US didn't sign it anyway so who cares.

I don't give a flying fuck if we torture or not... waterboarding is friggin cool. It gets good information in a fast amount of time in a world where Targets of Opportunity are key.

And I explained the stop loss program, and if you cant read what I told you, I would suppose that would be your problem. But under the executive order of the president and under his powers after congress gave him the blank check for war all those clauses in the contract become valid.

quote:

I have a hard time believing that the AK-47, the RPG or the mortar has gone through a great deal of change in the last few decades - they're fairly simple devices.

Be that as it may that's still not WW2 tech most of that was purchased from the USSR or given to them by the USSR during the cold war that is not WW2

quote:

I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

what is with you and this bridge?

quote:

Actually, if you add up the numbers you presented, they only account for about $1.7 billion a year

and for how many soldiers are you thinking of? and that isn't even support staff and logistics. I'm not in the military yet but even I understand that a war is expensive and requires things like food and water. Ammunition costs money, gas costs money, victory costs money.

quote:

It's a question you may want to ask, yourself - with $498.3 billion/year left over after pay, why are ground troops in Iraq having to scavenge armor for their trucks and buy their own body armor?

because liberals like you want to close down companies that suppply those to the troops. you run them bankrupt. And not just Arms, but you also close down things like the vacine companies. Why? because you hate corporations.

quote:

You do know that the Pentagon can't account for 1 in 4 dollars that it spends?

Can you account for every cent spent in your allowance? please give us one right down to the cent with tax and everything you've purchased in the past year. That is the equivalent of what your asking the pentagon.

quote:

why don't you ask the Baghdadis who had it before you folks "shocked and awed" your way into town?

Oh! those people. You mean the people who were murdered and butchered under Sadamn's regime.

quote:

"We never used WP in Fallujah!" "The US doesn't torture!" "Agent Orange isn't carcinogenic!"

should they tell the truth so you can slam them even more? You are never satisfied. Besides, WP is perfectly ok and torture is a very viable way to get information.

quote:

Perhaps you should "shut up" about things you haven't actually read?

says the one that probably reads the NYT, and watches CNN.

quote:

Originally posted by Hydrok:
So we havn't even got to base maintainance and other crap, but just paying the soldiers takes a huge chunk out of that 500 billion.

Actually, if you add up the numbers you presented, they only account for about $1.7 billion a year - less than 0.4% of the yearly military budget. I don't know about you, but I think most "intelligent" people would like to know where the other 99.6% of the budget is going (also, they probably wouldn't consider 0.4% a "huge chunk").

It's a question you may want to ask, yourself - with $498.3 billion/year left over after pay, why are ground troops in Iraq having to scavenge armor for their trucks and buy their own body armor?

quote:

And you little butt fucking moron... I am in the military, I deal with intelligence estimates every day, I know or can find out everything there is to know about the reconstruction process.

Really? Maybe you're the person to ask, then, about the $8 billion that went missing on the CPA's watch - I think the US taxpayer could have found some use for that money.

Oh, and it's good to see homophobia is alive and well in the US military - maybe that's why you're having such trouble with the insurgency? "Forget the hajis, we gotta take out them faggots!"

quote:

USAID is a bunch of idiots... not the military.

You do know that the Pentagon can't account for 1 in 4 dollars that it spends? I would hope USAID has a better track record. And, if USAID "are" a bunch of idiots, what does that make the "We know where the WMDs are" military?

quote:

The other thing is that energy conservation is vital in Iraq due to the high costs of oil and other resources... tell me, do your parents leave the heat on at night? do they keep lights on at night? The answer most likely is no... there is no reason to have heat or A/C at night or lights, so why do you need power?

Got me - why don't you ask the Baghdadis who had it before you folks "shocked and awed" your way into town?

quote:

Next up is something that made me angry at first but then I found it rather amusing because it shows how much liberals will ask for because rather than going ahead and accepting the truth from the agency that runs the war... the federal government, you need to hear something form an agency that is completely separate agency that is not even affiliated with the war.

Yeah, it's called "objectivity". Do you trust your child to count out his allowance from your wallet? Do you say to the used car dealer, "Just charge what you think is fair"?

And that doesn't even account for the Pentagon's long and ongoing history of obvious lies - "We never used WP in Fallujah!" "The US doesn't torture!" "Agent Orange isn't carcinogenic!".

Can you call me when you get back stateside? I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

quote:

So from now on unless you have read the official government documentation shut up about things you do not understand.

Actually, if you read my post below, you'll see that I did quote from the "official government documentation" regarding extension of contracts.

Perhaps you should "shut up" about things you haven't actually read?

I find it ironic that the "ultra-liberal" fanatic is the only one who can put together an argument without losing his head.

Point to the fanatic. Bravo.

quote:

Originally posted by ampmaster:
Hey idiot AK-47s, RPGs and Morters are all failry modernw weapons purchased from russia, no one is using WW2 era anything any where

I have a hard time believing that the AK-47, the RPG or the mortar has gone through a great deal of change in the last few decades - they're fairly simple devices. A WWII spoon is the same as a spoon today, dig?

Maybe if you divert the effort from your brilliant insults, you could post something coherent. Just a thought.

quote:

but all those things require fixed postions to reload and gas up and none of that is very mobile at all

And still, the military seems able to defend certain immobile targets, like the Green Zone and the Iraqi Oil Ministry.

quote:

well if it's human intelligence resources that would compromise those sources for one

If it's classified info, he probably shouldn't be posting it at all, now should he?

quote:

I think it's his job to know things and with his access to an intell souce that isn't CNN I suspect he would know a hell of alot more than you

And yet he didn't know info that was freely available on the USAID site. I love how you're the one claiming all this "cloak-and-dagger" access for Hydrok - maybe he would have mentioned something like this, if it was relevant?

If military intelligence was as omnipotent as you seem to believe, don't you think they'd have caught bin Laden by now?

Your military fetishism is tiresome - someday, you'll learn to look past all the shiny medals and actually evaluate what's being said.

quote:

and those other conditions required by law? that includes the defense of US Intrests and National Security so Saddam "saying" he had WMDs is one reason and the defense of our allies Kuwait and Saudia Arabia who supply much of our oil is another

Really? Which law is that?