This is a freaky article I came across recently about plans for a database that will allow the government to view credit card transactions, medical records, etc., etc.: Database dragnet

Although according to my fairly paranoid guy friend (who believes that Microsoft will be the catalyst for the apocalypse...), this has been around for many years already. But this is definately a wake up call here...

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Dante, you're obviously not going along with this "Revelation" thing because you have failed to study up on Biblical history - there's a lot of history in the Bible;

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Agreed, there is an awful lot of history in the Bible. Your point is...? And why does it mean I haven't studied up on my biblical history?

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I challenge you to find a qoute where I said the European Union was not a confederation because you seem to base your blank arguement off that imaginary qoute.

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Originally posted by marine16:
Europe is not a confederation at all and no scholar would argue the against that. If Europe is a confederation under a centralized authority, like we were during the revolution, then why doesn't all of Europe support or protest the war in Iraq?

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oooo, sucks to be you.

Yet:

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All you have proven is that Europe is a confederacy, nothing more.

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To be analogous, does not mean to be identical. An egg is to a chicken as an acorn is to a tree (a common SAT-type question). This does not mean an egg is made of wood and will grown into an oak tree, but the concept surrounding the two is the same, especially in the relevant comparison, that both are independent organisms produced by the "parent" that contain the seeds, or beginings of new life, and given the right circumstances will grow into a thing like their "parent".
Comparison is rendered impossible and pointless if the two situatoins must be identical. The essential similarity in this case is that both are regions of comparable size and common history that have grown or are growing into a more consolidated central-power structure. This is obviously true. America we have seen went from entirely differnt countries owning different pieces of land, to a country living under essentially one law, one foreign policy, one president, one constitution, one currency, etc. Europe used to be many different nations with a different currency, starkly different culture and politics to the point where they were often at war. They now have traded some soverignty for a more centralized government, unique currencies for a standard one, they often issue condemnation or support as a whole for things like issues in Israel. There is a EU constitution which all member nations must abide by. They are simply working their way towards more centralized power.
The US may not have had the extensive history previous to consolidation, but the comparison is true.

"Ha ha ha"

Wow...touchy touchy! I did not make an argument at all. I simply like to find humor in small things. A sign of a mature person is being able to laugh at themselves...hmmmm

Ha ha ha...spelling mistakes, what a classic attack point for someone who has no valid arguement.

ha ha ha... a "somplete moron"

No one ever said the European Union was not a confederation. The European Union is not the same Confederation as the US saw before its unifiaction. If you honestly feel that EU and the Confederate states of America are the same thing you are a somplete moron.

American Confederation - states were not atonomous. States all had differnet currencies.

European Union - States are autonomous. States have differnet languages. States have the same currency. There is not one person repreenting all 13 states in international affairs.

I find it funny that you have twisted my arguement. I simply said the European Union does not fall onto the same 'timeline' as America. At no point did I ever say the European Union was a confederacy. And I challenge you to find a qoute where I said the European Union was not a confederation because you seem to base your blank arguement off that imaginary qoute.

You have adapted an arguement that has nothing to do with mine and are attacking for it. Prove your statement that Europe is evolving just as we did 200 years ago. All you have proven is that Europe is a confederacy, nothing more. You have not proven that Europe was ever on the recieving end of colonialism.

I fail to see the logic, if there even is any, that the European Union resembles that evolution of America.

America.

Refugess came here is search of refugee from religous persecution. They removed the Indains from their land. They became colonies. They survived as colonies for almost 100 years. They faught a war of indepednece. They spent several years in a state of marshal law. They developed a constitution unlike any other constitution.

Please tell me what refugees went to Europe looking for religous freedom, who Europeans kicked off their land, when they became colonies and who was their mother land, how long they were colonies, what wars they faught for their specific independace, how long and why theu were in marshal law, and what unique constitution they developed. Once you tell me these things I will credit your arguement that the European Union is following the same timeline as America.

By the way, I am still challenging you to find a qoute that I said the EU is not a confederation.

Also, your American History is obviously as pathetic ad your European History.

Dauben, If reights come from good, then why do can we ammend our constitution. Why didn't the pope tell us our rights? Why didn't moses tell use 'God said these are the born rights of men"? Why doesn't the bible tell us our rights? You are so 'religous' you can easily answer these, I am have previously challenged you to do.

Our revolution was faught because a government did not give us the rights we felt a govenrment should give us.

If I am born with rights, than how come we even have a govenrment? God would tell us our rights and we would follow them.

It is your belief god grants us rights and it is fact that government gives us rights. You have no proof thaat God gives us rights.

There are all of these secretive organizations frothing at the mouth to push for this One World Government, yet it won't happen ...

...The European Union and the United Nations are just as good.

The EU cannot even be remotely compared to the American colonies.

If Canada tried to pull that crap and get the U.S. and Mexico under one currency (i.e., the euro), president (i.e., Romano Prodi), flag (i.e., solid blue with 12 gold stars forming a circle), then we'd have riots on our hands.

Yet the United Nations is okay - and by the way, our Consitution was ruled void in 1945 when the U.S. signed a pact with the U.N. in San Fransisco.

Oh well, the UN has the armies, and the EU provides the economic and political front.

Dante, you're obviously not going along with this "Revelation" thing because you have failed to study up on Biblical history - there's a lot of history in the Bible; you know that from some of the posts you've done in the past.

But um, I want to go back to the whole massive misconception that Marine has about our rights coming from the government.

Marine you are sadly, sadly mistaken if you think the federal government GAVE me my rights and your rights.

In fact, that's why the Revolution was fought - was to secure rights belonging to the People - not the government.

Wnat to know WHY people's rights are being taken away?

Because of people like you who think along the lines you do - a majority of Americans are blindly giving up their rights - those rights come from birth - not the government.

And the EU thing is pretty big news though; I mean, come on, they have their own currency (euro) and have "trade zones" and 10 other countries have just signed up to join it ...

...NOTHING (like you said earlier) like the American colonies, so props for that.

But nope, sorry, rights don't come from the fed. govt.

And the Bible, as I'm sure you know, also states "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..."

So not only do we obey God, but we obey the government - and the government is STRICTLY bound not to infringe upon our unalienable rights.

confederation
n 1: the state of being allied or confederated [syn: alliance] 2: a union of political organizations [syn: confederacy, federation] 3: the act of forming an alliance or confederation [syn: alliance]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

con·fed·er·a·tion    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kn-fd-rshn)
n.
1. a. The act of forming into or becoming part of a confederacy.
b. The state of being confederated.
2. A group of confederates, especially of states or nations, united for a common purpose; a league.
3. Confederation a. The union of the British North American colonies of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and the Province of Canada, brought about July 1, 1867, under the name Dominion of Canada.
b. The federal union of all the Canadian provinces and territories, the most recent member being Newfoundland in 1949.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

I think they would have to agree with me on this one. The EU is most definietly a confederation of "nations, united for a common purpose"

If you want to test me on European history go at it. Try me.

Not all of the colonies supported the war together. Massachusetts rebelled first and each state assembly or collection of men voted or decided to contribute forces or declare war independently.

The EU developed its own constitution under it's charter, there was a need to develop one.

I'm not passing judgement on the validity or rightness of the EU but simply that it's not a new concept, nor is it a harbinger of the apocalypse. There are several orgainzation throught history and even currently that are like it, it is not unique and therefore no reason to say it validates Joey's perception of Revelation.

Internet scanning implements have existed, but they were warrant controlled, and this is not a simple internet searcher. This is total information awareness, this is birth certificates, drug tests, school permanent record, medical histories, employment records, credit card staements, bank statements.

It's called Orwellian?? Huh, not the system I was thinking about. The government has had these type of tracking systems since during the Cold War. It is nothing new. The program was called Echelon. The newer program that i heard the FBI was using was called Carnivore. It basically can filter through your email. Basically the filter looks for key words (nuke, bomb, Donald Duck...etc.) and then from there allows the FBI to read these emails. It happens, it has been happening. Oh well.

Pete

Okay, Dante, your comparision is wrong on so many levels it is ridiculus.

What Europe is going trough is not like what America went trough at all. Europe is not a confederation at all and no scholar would argue the against that. If Europe is a confederation under a centralized authority, like we were during the revolution, then why doesn't all of Europe support or protest the war in Iraq?

Europe was never colonies. And if you think they were under Napolean and Charlamgene you might be right, but that was over 200 years ago and they all regained independence since then. in addition to that I have never seen any person try to claim nations in Europe were once colonies.

And these countries have allready had their own 'constitutions'. Thus they do not need to develope them.

I am afraid you feel that since the cocuntries of Europe are on the same land mass they must, in your opinion, be terrotories within a greater good. Your logic is irrelevant and useless.

I do not think yoiu have even the slightests knowledge of European History Dante thus I am amazed that you are trying to argue a pretend arguement using a history you know nothing about.

it doesn't matter that they weren't colonies (although arguably from Roman up to Napoleonic rule there was often foreign control of other countries); the point is the incrasing centralized control, which is just like what America went through when many differnt nations controled differnt colonies then the British controlled the first thriteen, but they still were separate, afte the revolution they still had differnt currencies and could each make foreign treaties etc. then finally under the constituion they combigned as one nation with a more powerful central government.
A less developed example is the emerging organization for African coperation that is the EU of Africa but has decidedly less power, or the Arab League which represents countries from Morocco to Iraq.
The British Commonwealth still is loosely organized as nations such as South Africa, Canada, and New Zeland, among others, with common interests.

Actually, the European Union does not represent the Colonial - Confederate - Independence timeles at all Dante, you moron. The member states of the European Union were not colonies at all when they joined the European, they were independent nations. They joined the European Union under the belief that Europe needed to be a unified front and yes, I must agree with Joey, that this does represent a sort of threat, but not a world government. It simply represents a mock USSR of the NATO countries under the command of Britan and Germany.

Joey, if we get our rights from our creator than how come international tribunals have defined 'human rights' mimicking the US, and no the Pope?

And, Joey, since you are so religous, we do not have a divine right to privacy. Adam and eve came into this world naked. Geez, I figured you would take note of that since you seem to hold our God and Bible in such esteem, or do you only use them when it is convient for your arguement?

Rights are given to us by governmental bodies that transcend basic human institutions. They have the power to give us more rights and the power to take them away.

Unreasonable search and siezure is propably the arguement all you book worms will point out when confronted with 'big brother' online. However it is a reasonable search. How do you know who is a terrorists and who is not? hell, I sure can't tell. They can look like anything from the white McVeigh or the poor Arab.

The increasing strength of the European Union is no different than evolution from Colonial America to the Articles of Confederation and then to the Constitution. This in no way is indicative of a one-world government. Your fears are unfounded.

In reply to what marine was saying about "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear":
Personally, I don't care whether the govornment looks at what I'm doing online or what I'm buying with credit crads or anything like that, because none of it could be interesting to them anyway. But I would never want the govornment to be able to do those things, simply because other people may not want their business to be monitered. Just because the govornment may have the technology and think they have valid reasons for doing things like that, I don't think anything could ever give them the right to take away the privacy of people in this country. Isn't that the freedom we're all desperate to preserve? I think the govornment just wants an excuse for more power.

Well, just a look at the daily headlines can tell you what all I've presented before you - as far as this conspiracy to make an attempt to bring all the countries in Europe into One.

Europe's nations fading to the left
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20021205-7700619.htm

What a perfect cop-out.

"If you have nothing to hide..."


We get our rights from our Creator, not the government. We are born with rights, we are not given them by a federal agency.


So therefore, government taking away our right to privacy is illegal.

I don't have anything to "hide."

I have something to protect!



If you aren't guilty, what are you afraid of?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29814

or any freedom lovng patriot
or anyone who is offended by intrusions
or people who like the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing
or any number of sane and rational people...