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Registered: June 23, 2007
Posts: 36
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We all know much of society views sexually promiscuous women differently from sexually promiscuous men. We often see it as normal or not as a big of a deal if men go out and get whatever they want, and they are often celebrated for this. But if women do it, they are called sluts and looked down upon. But what I can't stand is when women try to use this as an excuse to be sexually promiscuous themselves. They argue, "Well if men can be sluts then we should be able to also! Whoohoo, Girl Power!" Then they try to promote this statement by dressing revealingly and flaunting their sexual rampages, wearing sayings on their shirts across their chest like, "Who needs brains when you have these!?" and consider it "liberating." And then they call themselves "feminists" on top of that! No, you're not a feminist. In fact, you are contradicting much of what real feminism is about, and you're just looking for an excuse for be slutty and not have to answer to anyone about it. Not cool. Has anyone else noticed this about young women today? They look at this sexual equality thing the wrong way in my opinion. They shouldn't be trying to match men in this perspective. I mean, I'm a 22 year old college female myself, and call me old fashioned or whatever, but it just sickens me to see my acquaintances going, "Well if it's OK for Jason for sleep with 9 girls in a month, then it should be OK for me to sleep with 9 guys in a month!" Why do you all think?
Glamour follows her everywhere.
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Registered: June 29, 2007
Posts: 17
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yea i know what you mean there is a BIG difference in dressing sexy and dressing skanky its wrong on s omany levels I hate that and I'll be honest I like to dress sexy but I hate skanky looking outfits its like saying hey I'm open and ready
men and women shold have the same rights but lifes not fair and we're thought of differently then men
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Registered: January 07, 2008
Posts: 9
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If you believe that both genders should have equal rights, then you are a feminist. Doesn't matter how you dress, technically. And whenever a guy says to me, "Dude, I just totally banged that chick", I call him a whore or a slut and pretend to get angry, while I praise the girl  Trips people up a bit. |
Registered: August 17, 2001
Posts: 5811
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quote: My question to that is, why do they want to wear things like that to begin with? Many of them want to, ironically, for attention. It's the truth. Many women wear skimpy clothes to show off, only because they know they will be seen and stared at. I see women all the time that walk by my boyfriend and some of my guy friends 4 times practically begging them to gawk, and when my boyfriend and guy friends don't acknowledge their existence, you can tell they hate it. A lot of women I personally know wouldn't bother dressing provocatively if no one payed attention to them. So it's really hard for me to believe that these women sincerely don't want the attention when they dress like that.
Maybe they just have a high confidence day and want to show that off. Maybe they feel like being sexy. If people can walk on stage in a bathing suit to emit confidence, then women can walk around in a halter and a shirt skirt to do the same. quote: I think we as people are responsible for our own self confidence. We are perfectly capable of ignoring messages from the media if we learn how. When you say that the media should watch out what kind of messages they send out because some little girl at home might be watching and feel insecure, you're just admitting they have that power over us, when they don't and they shouldn't. It's totally a psychological matter that we should take care of for ourselves, not anyone else.
The media can trigger people pre-disposed to eating disorders. That is a way in which the media should be held accountable. It's scary to see girls under 10 wanting to be "like Britney," wanting to be thin. For some people who are role models, they should promote a healthy diet, not what Hollywood is currently promoting. Younger children see a lot, and repeat what they see. When they are bombarded with some of the Hollywood images, they will try to repeat those images. It's the way they learn. Yes, parents can keep a better eye over what their children do, but it's pretty hard to avoid those images at times, no matter how hard you try to. As to your real women question: I think a real woman is someone who has confidence, and displays the intelligence they were given without trying to hide it. I also think they don't do things just for guys, and try to be the best that they can be. However, I do know that my definition will be an incomplete one because, like Feminism, there are so many definitions that you can't pinpoint them. There will always be people who claim their right to dress sexy (even if everyone but them sees it as slutty) is a form of feminism. Others will believe it's the right to be treated equal and with respect, and to not live with the double standards presented in todays' societies. Still others will hold entirely different views. But until an exact definition is pinpointed, how, exactly, can we compare it to sexuality and determine what is feminist behavior and what is not? Until then, it's all just a matter of opinion. Good post, Fina.
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Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1686
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Eating disorders are complex things. To lay the blame exclusively on the media is really unfair; there's a whole complex interplay between physical, mental and cultural factors at fault. It all goes back to the stress-diathesis model and all that awesome stuff I learned and then mostly forgot in psych last year. But basically, you can't get rid of something like a beauty pageant that millions of people enjoy on the grounds that it may do damage to some hyper-sensitive people. I don't mean to sound heartless, but it's really up to those on the verge of eating disorders to seek out counseling and develop effective coping strategies of their own. Just like you can't outlaw men not wearing shirts on the grounds that it's distracting. Whether or not drawing attention to your body is consistent with feminism or masculism or whatever is an interesting topic, but I sure as hell hope we can all agree these behaviors shouldn't be illegal. Like Ikki said, this issue cuts to the heart of what feminism is. I tend to think whatever promotes greater independence and autonomy in individual women is feminism, no matter how women use that newfound independence. In other words, I see feminism as an extension of individual liberties: the autonomy of the individual is, ironically, far more important than the well-being of the social movement crusading for greater autonomy in individuals. But I also definitely see Ashley's point about the contradictory nature of some of the "liberating" behavior. I wish sluts would just be sluts and not associate their behavior with feminism. As for the matter of whether women have a right not to be stared at...of course they do. No matter how they're dressed. Even if I know you're a nicotine addict trying to quit smoking, it's still my right to smoke in front of you without having my cigarettes stolen. Maybe these women enjoy the way these clothes feel. Of course, it's far more likely that they're doing it for attention, but nobody has the right to make such assumptions. But in the end, it's all about personal choice. The double standard in how promiscuous men and promiscuous women are labeled and treated is horrible. I think a lot of the problem could be remedied if we just changed our outlook on promiscuity from it being a character flaw to it being a lifestyle choice. Monogamy simply ain't for everyone, folks.
And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
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Registered: June 23, 2007
Posts: 36
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quote: Originally posted by Ikki14Reed:
It draws attention when some guys walk around with no shirt on. Should that be illegal as well?
Maybe. quote: They expect to be treated equally as humans. They expect to be able to wear what they want without being stared at. Why that might not happen, they do have a right to wear what they want, no matter what anyone else thinks, and if they feel an urge to tell a guy off who's making them feel uncomfortable, so be it. They have the right to do that too, just like guys have the right to tell women off for trying to make them objects of lust.
My question to that is, why do they want to wear things like that to begin with? Many of them want to, ironically, for attention. It's the truth. Many women wear skimpy clothes to show off, only because they know they will be seen and stared at. I see women all the time that walk by my boyfriend and some of my guy friends 4 times practically begging them to gawk, and when my boyfriend and guy friends don't acknowledge their existence, you can tell they hate it. A lot of women I personally know wouldn't bother dressing provocatively if no one payed attention to them. So it's really hard for me to believe that these women sincerely don't want the attention when they dress like that. quote:
Why not? Peer pressure exists. Pressure from outside sources exists. Everyone needs to take responsibility to ensure that people are healthy and don't try to be an inexistent ideal.
And there's nothing wrong with the girl. We've all had instances where our self-esteem is low. It's normal.
I disagree. It may be considered "normal" in this society, but we have major body image and self esteem issues. It's not healthy to feel that way and just blame the media for it. I think we as people are responsible for our own self confidence. We are perfectly capable of ignoring messages from the media if we learn how. When you say that the media should watch out what kind of messages they send out because some little girl at home might be watching and feel insecure, you're just admitting they have that power over us, when they don't and they shouldn't. It's totally a psychological matter that we should take care of for ourselves, not anyone else. As Eleanor Roosevelt once said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." quote: Originally posted by ampmaster:
that's not the bloody problem, it's putting those women on a pedastel and saying "this is what women should look like" when only 10% of women in the world can look like that with out putting severe strain on their bodies.
First of all, I don't believe 90% of the 70% of Americans who are overweight are that way naturally. Some may be, but this country is spoiled with fatty foods and people do over eat. Secondly, I don't think thin woman are held on a pedestal. Many women who aren't thin win pageants too. Also, what about that Dove campaign and the like who not only hold overweight women on a pedestal, but criticize and belittle thin women? quote:
but the least they could do is use real women, not airbrushed, half-starved visions of wanna-be perfection who look nothing like that themselves practically.
And what exactly is a real woman? That is another thing I hate with those Dove commercials, saying, "Real women have curves." So the women who happen to have no curves aren't real? The plus size modeling industry is at an all time high. There are more bigger women being featured in magazine ads and commercials than there ever has before. I will say though that I do hate excessive airbrushing. I mean, I can understand if a photo has red eye and flyaway hairs, but many times they do photoshop people on magazine covers nearly to non-existence. quote:
Sorry sweetheart that doesn't work for all of the world. I know a guy on my football team and he's a big boy you know? He works out more than any dude on that team eats salads and lean meats exclusively he gained 20 pounds last season. There's a lot of people who's body types don't look like our size 0 standard of perfection, by genetics some of us are bigger, some of us are smaller and some of us are somewhere in between. Then these people are told that the smaller people are better so everyone tries to be smaller.
I can understand that because I have such a fast metabolism, it's very hard for me to gain weight. I have always been considered underweight but I've always been healthy according to doctors. I think people need to learn that if you're a few pounds overweight or underweight but you're healthy and that's just how you are, there's no need to try to loose or gain weight. If you eat right and everything, learn to ignore the pressure and just accept your body.
Glamour follows her everywhere.
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13959
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quote: If girls are feeling insecure because they see a beautiful and thin woman in a swim suit
that's not the bloody problem, it's putting those women on a pedastel and saying "this is what women should look like" when only 10% of women in the world can look like that with out putting severe strain on their bodies. quote: It's neither the media or the fashion industry's responsibility to keep thin women off their their ads
but the least they could do is use real women, not airbrushed, half-starved visions of wanna-be perfection who look nothing like that themselves practically. quote: taking the right steps of losing weight like eating right and working out.
Sorry sweetheart that doesn't work for all of the world. I know a guy on my football team and he's a big boy you know? He works out more than any dude on that team eats salads and lean meats exclusively he gained 20 pounds last season. There's a lot of people who's body types don't look like our size 0 standard of perfection, by genetics some of us are bigger, some of us are smaller and some of us are somewhere in between. Then these people are told that the smaller people are better so everyone tries to be smaller.
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: August 17, 2001
Posts: 5811
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quote: We are sexual beings and it's just natural for that kind of thing to cause some sort of distraction or draw to attention.
It draws attention when some guys walk around with no shirt on. Should that be illegal as well? quote: I really hate it when I see women at the store or some place dressed like they are wearing a sign that says, "Come and get me" and then when a guy looks at them, they say "What you looking at?" with such the crappiest attitude and act all offended. What do they expect?
They expect to be treated equally as humans. They expect to be able to wear what they want without being stared at. Why that might not happen, they do have a right to wear what they want, no matter what anyone else thinks, and if they feel an urge to tell a guy off who's making them feel uncomfortable, so be it. They have the right to do that too, just like guys have the right to tell women off for trying to make them objects of lust. quote: If girls are feeling insecure because they see a beautiful and thin woman in a swim suit, then something is wrong with that girl. Parents need to take a better role in trying to help build up self confidence in their children as well as guide their kids towards taking the right steps of losing weight like eating right and working out. It's neither the media or the fashion industry's responsibility to keep thin women off their their ads just so the young impressionable minds won't feel bad about themselves or so they won't try to starve themselves.
Why not? Peer pressure exists. Pressure from outside sources exists. Everyone needs to take responsibility to ensure that people are healthy and don't try to be an inexistent ideal. And there's nothing wrong with the girl. We've all had instances where our self-esteem is low. It's normal.
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Registered: June 23, 2007
Posts: 36
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quote: Originally posted by Ikki14Reed:
Even if they are healthy, it does help give the ideal of thin being beautiful, which could lead other girls into unhealthy ways of losing weight.
If girls are feeling insecure because they see a beautiful and thin woman in a swim suit, then something is wrong with that girl. Parents need to take a better role in trying to help build up self confidence in their children as well as guide their kids towards taking the right steps of losing weight like eating right and working out. It's neither the media or the fashion industry's responsibility to keep thin women off their their ads just so the young impressionable minds won't feel bad about themselves or so they won't try to starve themselves. quote:
That's all besides the original point, though, of the fact that to some people, pageants are objectification of women as is women wearing skimpy clothes. However, none of it should matter, since women should be allowed to wear and do whatever they want without fear of backlash. If a women wanted to walk around topless with a guy friend who was also topless, I feel she should be allowed to without indecent exposure tickets or fear of consequence. That's what yet another aspect of feminism is about.
Do you really expect a woman to walk around town with all of her junk hanging out and a man not to look and be turned on? We are sexual beings and it's just natural for that kind of thing to cause some sort of distraction or draw to attention. I really hate it when I see women at the store or some place dressed like they are wearing a sign that says, "Come and get me" and then when a guy looks at them, they say "What you looking at?" with such the crappiest attitude and act all offended. What do they expect?
Glamour follows her everywhere.
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Registered: August 17, 2001
Posts: 5811
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quote: It doesn't prove anything. Those are just ignorant assumptions. Despite what critics lead themselves to believe, these women are healthy. They have personal trainers and nutritionists. Just because many of them are somewhat thin, people go jumping the gun.
Even if they are healthy, it does help give the ideal of thin being beautiful, which could lead other girls into unhealthy ways of losing weight. That's all besides the original point, though, of the fact that to some people, pageants are objectification of women as is women wearing skimpy clothes. However, none of it should matter, since women should be allowed to wear and do whatever they want without fear of backlash. If a women wanted to walk around topless with a guy friend who was also topless, I feel she should be allowed to without indecent exposure tickets or fear of consequence. That's what yet another aspect of feminism is about.
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Registered: June 23, 2007
Posts: 36
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quote: Originally posted by Meagan87:
The swimsuit competitions make me sick.
Physical fitness? Showing a bunch of skinny women in bathing suits only proves that starvation is a good way to keep weight down.
It doesn't prove anything. Those are just ignorant assumptions. Despite what critics lead themselves to believe, these women are healthy. They have personal trainers and nutritionists. Just because many of them are somewhat thin, people go jumping the gun. quote:
You really want to be able to talk about showing "physically fit" women? Why not make them compete in fitness competitions as part of the pageant? Run a mile or two, do some push-ups, maybe actually swim...wait a second, that wouldn't be very "feminine" would it?
Physical fitness can be demonstrated better than parading around half naked.
Actually quite a few of them do that. I've seen several of them that, instead of swim suit rounds, they create a choreographed workout routine to music.
Glamour follows her everywhere.
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13959
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quote: Physical fitness can be demonstrated better than parading around half naked.
triathalon or decathalon would seem like a good idea to me
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: June 12, 2007
Posts: 941
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quote: The swimsuit competitions make me sick.
Me too.
Li sempre essera le domande, non importa cio che la lingua.
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Registered: May 07, 2003
Posts: 7538
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The swimsuit competitions make me sick. Physical fitness? Showing a bunch of skinny women in bathing suits only proves that starvation is a good way to keep weight down. You really want to be able to talk about showing "physically fit" women? Why not make them compete in fitness competitions as part of the pageant? Run a mile or two, do some push-ups, maybe actually swim...wait a second, that wouldn't be very "feminine" would it? Physical fitness can be demonstrated better than parading around half naked.
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead
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Registered: August 17, 2001
Posts: 5811
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quote: Swim suit competitions in most pageants aren't about parading how hot one looks in a bikini, but rather about fitness and whether or not the woman presents a good body image, looks healthy and fit, and has enough confidence to walk in front of a crowd in a swim suit. It's about portraying a healthy physique, not at all about "sexuality."
But at the same time, it can be viewed as objectification. You are still being judged on how you look, which is still part of being viewed as an object.
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Registered: June 23, 2007
Posts: 36
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quote: Originally posted by ampmaster:
miss brook I was just wondering if you would mind defining exactly what you call feminism it tends to vary. So your absolute defenition of it would be helpful in better understanding this topic.
Honestly, I'm still studying all the different sectors of feminism. I'm not sure I have a firm belief in what it is and what it is not because there are so many different definitions, it seems to go in a circle and many of them contradict each other. I was always under the impression that it was about, in the sexuality matter, preventing being objectified and exploited, not just by men, by by yourself as well. About respecting yourself more than going out and being promiscuous just to compete with men on their sexual way of life. But then I see all these women on Girls Gone Wild calling themselves feminists for doing what they do, and it's like, "Wait, I've always heard of it being the opposite of what they're doing." quote: Originally posted by Ikki14Reed:
There is also the problem of what they can buy. A lot of teen clothes are skimpy because that's whats "in." But even if they are objectifying and exploiting themselves, if they want to do that, they should have the right to do so without having to worry about anyone else.
I know you're into beauty pageants. So since that does tie in, how do swimming suits and all the other clothes they "parade around" in for a scholarship competition not exploit and objectify women?
I know plenty of "in" styles that are not skimpy. Swim suit competitions in most pageants aren't about parading how hot one looks in a bikini, but rather about fitness and whether or not the woman presents a good body image, looks healthy and fit, and has enough confidence to walk in front of a crowd in a swim suit. It's about portraying a healthy physique, not at all about "sexuality."
Glamour follows her everywhere.
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Registered: February 22, 2004
Posts: 13959
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miss brook I was just wondering if you would mind defining exactly what you call feminism it tends to vary. So your absolute defenition of it would be helpful in better understanding this topic.
"The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done"."
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Registered: August 17, 2001
Posts: 5811
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quote: I don't think these girls should be harassed or anything, but I think it's reasonable to raise questions why women wear slutty clothes. To me, they are the ones objectifying and exploiting their own selves.
There is also the problem of what they can buy. A lot of teen clothes are skimpy because that's whats "in." But even if they are objectifying and exploiting themselves, if they want to do that, they should have the right to do so without having to worry about anyone else. I know you're into beauty pageants. So since that does tie in, how do swimming suits and all the other clothes they "parade around" in for a scholarship competition not exploit and objectify women?
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Registered: June 23, 2007
Posts: 36
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quote: Originally posted by Ikki14Reed:
However, on the other side, women SHOULD be able to do what they want,
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