whoa whoa whoa okay!

1 no we aren't all adam and eves children..because God flooded the world and pratically started over with mosas and his kids and his kids wives...

and..for the first post ever on here It's not just a religion..i am not religious but i am a christian (let me explain) Christian doesn't mean anything but Child of God yes i am a child of God but i believe i'm more then that..and to me it is not a religion because a religion is somthing you call yourself and don't really live by...i call myself a Christian and i live by it.i worship, read the bible, go to church, believe him, AND i have a relationship with him.

People can say they are christians..and they go to church and pray and blah blah blah but thats not what being a Christian is well now a days it is but if you want to be a REAL christian thats not what you do..you don't go to church and act all chummy with God you live by it day by day. YOu can pray, call yourself whatever you want but you aren't a christian intill you fully believe in him and have a relationship with him...

i was a show once at my church and my friends band was playing...(they're christians) and the singer and the drummer were sharing there testimonys and he (justin) Said "if jesus walked in the door right now would you be able to talk to him" and everyone said yes but i had to think about it because at the time i didn't have a GOOD relationship with God and now i do so NOW i could talk to him..but then i couldn't i couldn't just walk up to him and have an hour conversation...my point in all of this is

you can fall and get back up...God will always be there and once saved always saved? no i don't believe it..because i KNOW you can totally stop believeing God yes he'll be there but it's your choice to go back to him. God isn't going to MAKE you love him..it's your choice he wants you to and no matter what you do...at all no matter what he'll always be there and always Love you so don't question his love about that......

-Saphraine
www.dramadust.com

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Why would God have inspired people to refer to idols and such as "gods," when, in fact, the word itself is holy?

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Even God speaks metaphorically.

God proclaims himself many times to be the "one true God".

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So does everyone come from Adam and Eve, the ONE God's creation?

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Again your taking this Literally, and not balancing it with logic and reason.

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No, we're not. I told you Moses could have downsized that tablet of his by summing up and/or combining them. Everything dealing with god (e.g. No work on the Sabbath, only follow the Lord as your only god, etc.) is simply in raw juxtaposition.

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So only 6 of the 10 commandment are common sense...

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Now I feel loved. Yous betta keep yo' word..

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Four Shizzle Dizzle.

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You are very wise, my child.

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Four Shizzle Dizzle.

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This Clearly means I get to eat free in Canada.

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When you go, can I tag along? I've always wanted to go to the Maple-leaf, beer-producing, hockey-loving country with numerous health benefits.

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And I think it is a smart Idea to read Multiple translations.

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I couldn't agree with you more, Korith.

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This does not mean that these Gods exist. It means that there are other who worship other Gods (idols and such), or what they call Gods. So what he is saying is to not leave (in this case Judaism) to become one of the pagans.

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Why would God have inspired people to refer to idols and such as "gods," when, in fact, the word itself is holy?

Heb.7:3 "Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God," was "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." So does everyone come from Adam and Eve, the ONE God's creation? I also have more to add which gives the pagans more credibility, but I'll save that for later.

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...5 ...6 .. Wait aren’t there actually 10 commandments in the 10 commandments?
Aren't we missing a few other "common sense" ones? Or are we "picking and choosing"?

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No, we're not. I told you Moses could have downsized that tablet of his by summing up and/or combining them. Everything dealing with god (e.g. No work on the Sabbath, only follow the Lord as your only god, etc.) is simply in raw juxtaposition.

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I'll write a book for you some day, M'k?

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Now I feel loved. Yous betta keep yo' word..

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Not to take everything literal, or for face value, or to be in some kind of round about code. But study with logic, and reason.

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You are very wise, my child.

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Throw some verses at me, and we'll see who's twisting what out of context.

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"On the south side it will run from Tamar as far as the waters of Meribah Kadesh, then along the Wadi of Egypt to the Great Sea. This will be the south boundary."
Ezekiel 47:19

This Clearly means I get to eat free in Canada.

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Actually, the CEV (Contemporary English Version) is the most recent, accurate translation of the Bible.

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Accurate is in Quotations for a reason in my sentence. Because accuracy is relative, so no one can say, "this is the right one!" and know that for fact.

I believe each translation is "right". And I think it is a smart Idea to read Multiple translations.

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And the commandment stating that one should not have any other gods before the Lord implies that more than one god exists, because "gods" is plural, meaning more than one. Get it?

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This does not mean that these Gods exist. It means that there are other who worship other Gods (idols and such), or what they call Gods. So what he is saying is to not leave (in this case Judaism) to become one of the pagans.

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Don't lie, cheat, murder, steal, cheat on your spouse, respect your parents.. seems like common sense to me.

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...5 ...6 .. Wait aren’t there actually 10 commandments in the 10 commandments?
Aren't we missing a few other "common sense" ones? Or are we "picking and choosing"?

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Well, now I don't feel special anymore..

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I'll write a book for you some day, M'k?

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Are you aware that Christianity HAS so many denominations because different groups "twisted" part of the bible to suit their personal beliefs? Well, I'm sure you know all of that, as well, eh?

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I am completely aware of the relativity involved in my own religion.
Their are many people who believe this that and the other thing. I hate to say I am the only one who is right. But I believe we should all approach the Bible, and God, with Logic, and reasoning. Not to take everything literal, or for face value, or to be in some kind of round about code. But study with logic, and reason.

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NIV is one of the more recent translations. Many see it as the most "accurate" paraphrase of the Greek/Latin Bibles, manuscripts.

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Actually, the CEV (Contemporary English Version) is the most recent, accurate translation of the Bible.

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Ok, so thanks for the history lesson (nothing I didn't already know).

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Anytime. I used it as a reference because you seemed a little shady on fundamentalism and what you think labeling all Christians as, and what history depicts.

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Ok, so thanks for the history lesson (nothing I didn't already know).

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Throw some verses at me, and we'll see who's twisting what out of context.

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Don't be like to morons who believe they have some form of a biblical contradiction, by twisting contexts.

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I don't quite understand what you mean by "don't be like to morons," but the bible is always up for different interpretations. Are you aware that Christianity HAS so many denominations because different groups "twisted" part of the bible to suit their personal beliefs? Well, I'm sure you know all of that, as well, eh? And the commandment stating that one should not have any other gods before the Lord implies that more than one god exists, because "gods" is plural, meaning more than one. Get it?

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But wait I thought the 10 Commandments where:

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Don't lie, cheat, murder, steal, cheat on your spouse, respect your parents.. seems like common sense to me.

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But not going into that, I would have to write a book to explain in detail enough.

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Well, now I don't feel special anymore..

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I have three Bibles, including the KJV and one written by A.J Holman and Co.; and, because Catholics never get rid of their bibles, I'm assuming it's very, very old (that, and I accidentally tore the cover off, heh). Point being that all three bibles, both ancient and differently translated, say "effeminate;" never referencing to and/or mentioning the word homosexual. My reminiscing was just your extra bonus.

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NIV is one of the more recent translations. Many see it as the most "accurate" paraphrase of the Greek/Latin Bibles, manuscripts.

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You can't speak for anyone but yourself. You said, "The actions of the "fundamentalist" at Salem do not represent the view of all Christians." I am telling you for a fact that the OT was used to prosecute prospective witches in the Salem Witch Trials. These people were fundamentalists. That is also a fact. I never stated that all Christians believe and/or act in the same mannerisms, because NOT all Christians are 19th century fundamentalists.

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Ok, so thanks for the history lesson (nothing I didn't already know).

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This statement is commonly used with Christians to condemn homosexuality. Why is this not outdated as well? Pick and choose.

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Not Pick and choose, as far as I am concerned. The new Testament DOES condemn the homosexual lifestyle as well.

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Don't have any other gods before the Lord. Right. So there's more than one god? Score: Pagans - one point, Christians - zero points. This is just a demand, and a rather selfish one at that.

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Don't be like to morons who believe they have some form of a biblical contradiction, by twisting contexts.

This is a statement to not follow other religions, but obey only the God of Moses.

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This one makes me laugh. It's designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of civilized humans in the twenty-first century.

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But wait I thought the 10 Commandments where:

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strictly common sense

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The Bible is filled with misogynistic idealisms. It does not directly say that "females are worthless and should be treated
as slaves, property, etc," but it degrades them as such.

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Relative.

But not going into that, I would have to write a book to explain in detail enough.

[This message was edited by Korith on February 17, 2004 at 06:56 PM.]

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Several other version of the bible also have the word homosexual used.

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I have three Bibles, including the KJV and one written by A.J Holman and Co.; and, because Catholics never get rid of their bibles, I'm assuming it's very, very old (that, and I accidentally tore the cover off, heh). Point being that all three bibles, both ancient and differently translated, say "effeminate;" never referencing to and/or mentioning the word homosexual. My reminiscing was just your extra bonus.

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I wasn't glorifying myself. I was merely telling you I do not pick and choose. And your one to talk about self-glorification, your majesty

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You can do no wrong, dahling. And I'm not one to talk about self-glorification, because there are people who do so for me. Everyone loves me. After all, it's a sin not to.

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Just letting you know that the actions of a few are not necessarily consensus. So how could I speak for the puritans when I am not one myself?

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You can't speak for anyone but yourself. You said, "The actions of the "fundamentalist" at Salem do not represent the view of all Christians." I am telling you for a fact that the OT was used to prosecute prospective witches in the Salem Witch Trials. These people were fundamentalists. That is also a fact. I never stated that all Christians believe and/or act in the same mannerisms, because NOT all Christians are 19th century fundamentalists.

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Just an example, like women being "unclean" after birth and shouldn't touch anything "sacred". This rule is considered outdated.

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Leviticus 20:13 states that "if a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." This statement is commonly used with Christians to condemn homosexuality. Why is this not outdated as well? Pick and choose.

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Perhaps murder, adultery (loose definition some times), stealing and lying sure.
But the first 4 (in fact the first one isn't even a commandment) are telling people to worship only the God of Moses. Are you agreeing this is common sense. And the last states not to want what others have. Many people are envious and consider it a good thing to be.

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1) Respect/honor you parents. Makes sense; your mother conceived you and your father.. well, without his sperm you wouldn't be here, so there's plenty of reason to honor them.

2) Don't have any other gods before the Lord. Right. So there's more than one god? Score: Pagans - one point, Christians - zero points. This is just a demand, and a rather selfish one at that.

3) Keep the Sabbath holy. This one makes me laugh. It's designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of civilized humans in the twenty-first century.

4) Don't take the Lord's name in vain. I've broken this one a plethora of times. But - out of respect for my Christian family and peers - I say "cheese and rice," instead of Jee-zus Christ. The considerate Atheist right in front of you.

5) and 6) Don't steal and lie. Actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior: dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest." More common sense.

7) and 8) Don't commit adultery and/or covet your neighbor's wife. Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is that coveting takes place in the mind. But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value; so you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, and say, "thou shalt always be honest and faithful." Yep. Common sense yet again.

9) Don't covet your neighbor's things. This is basic sense right here, but my evil, malicious mind disagrees. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going. I see some new book you have, therefore I end up buying one for myself. Bam: instant economy jump-starter. More jobs = happier people.

10) Don't kill. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big discrepancy with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously people take this commandment. I suppose it depends on who's doin' the killing and who's gettin' killed eh?

You know, with all these commandments summed up, Moses could have walked around with that tablet in his pocket.

Best NonCommandment: Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself, unless in a house of worship.

As George Carline states, "Let me ask you this - when they were making this crap up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why - because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bull**** list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. You can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical."

Heh.

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Many people are envious and consider it a good thing to be.

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Refer to my previous scenario with the book.

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Please clarify.

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"...With violence, injustices, hatred towards females..." "...Never said the Bible states direct hatred of women; rather, it vilipends women as if they are still deemed property."

The Bible is filled with misogynistic idealisms. It does not directly say that "females are worthless and should be treated
as slaves, property, etc," but it degrades them as such.

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9,10 NIV

Several other version of the bible also have the word homosexual used.

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Too bad self-glorification is something to be pitied.

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I wasn't glorifying myself. I was merely telling you I do not pick and choose. And your one to talk about self-glorification, your majesty

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When, in fact, did I say that they did?

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Just letting you know that the actions of a few are not necessarily consensus. So how could I speak for the puritans when I am not one myself?

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Many males are circumcised after birth for health-related reasons that have nothing to do with Judaism. Therefore, male circumcision does have a justifiable amount of validity in itself.

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Just an example, like women being "unclean" after birth and shouldn't touch anything "sacred". This rule is considered outdated.

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The Ten Commandments are strictly common sense

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Perhaps murder, adultery (loose definition some times), stealing and lying sure.
But the first 4 (in fact the first one isn't even a commandment) are telling people to worship only the God of Moses. Are you agreeing this is common sense. And the last states not to want what others have. Many people are envious and consider it a good thing to be.

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Fundies believe that every word in the Bible was written from God's mouth, which is was not.

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I believe God inspired the writers of the bible to write what they did. I also believe not everything in the bible is a permanent law. Laws do get out dated.

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I never said the Bible states direct hatred of women; rather, it vilipends women as if they are still deemed property.

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Your original statement:

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The Old Testament is filled with violence, injustices, hatred towards females, homosexuals, etc.

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Please clarify.

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The new testament condemns Homosexuality too (1Corth 6:9). This is a poor example.

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Corinthians 1: 6:10-6:12 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

The only reference from the NT that you could have possibly twisted into abominations of homosexuality would be "effiminate" which simply means "having feminine qualities untypical of a man; not manly in appearance or manner; marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement (qtd. Merriam-Webster.)

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Perhaps some do. But not myself.

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Too bad self-glorification is something to be pitied.

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The actions of the "fundamentalist" at Salem do not represent the view of all Christians.

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When, in fact, did I say that they did?

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Many Christians have condemned the Salem which trials, and labeled them, “Un-Christian”. Anyone can twist the contexts of the bible. This is no special gift.

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If people did not twist the Bible's context, then there would no need for so many Christian denominations. Also, many passages directly stated to kill witches. There was no need to twist those for anyone's personal vendettas against those women/men.

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But with many exceptions. Such as Jewish tradition (including circumcision) no longer have any validity

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Many males are circumcised after birth for health-related reasons that have nothing to do with Judaism. Therefore, male circumcision does have a justifiable amount of validity in itself.

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The 10 commandments for example.
The old testament is a good example of what god sees as right, and wrong.

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The Ten Commandments are strictly common sense. Simply because they were jotted down in a text does not make them intermittently astonishing, foreign ideas that humanity would not have had without it.

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Also he had many other teachings and lessons that apply to salvation, and way of life. The rest of the bible also answers many questions about behavior.

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I have no doubts that Jesus didn't teach kindness and love; I do believe that he was mentally unstable. He was a philosopher who has been over-glorified.

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Does Uptown not believe in the bible?
If she does, then surely she would know about these "degrading" areas concerning women. Why would she stand for that? Sound like a sheep to me.

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I'm sure uptown has her own opinions on the Bible, and I hope she is so kind as to share them with us. But she is not a fundamentalist, which I refer to as a sheep. A fundamentalist, in case you're not sure about the definitive meaning of the word, is an individual who believes the Bible has no fallacies and everything in the bible should be taken literally (something you have disputed, I believe, saying that many sects of the bible are metaphorically speaking). Fundies believe that every word in the Bible was written from God's mouth, which is was not.

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So uptown. Care to explain why you are in a woman-hating religion that wishes to degrade you?

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I never said the Bible states direct hatred of women; rather, it vilipends women as if they are still deemed property.

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The Bible, in its entirety, is comprised of BOTH Testaments. A Christian can argue that homosexuality is wrong because the Old Testament says so.

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The new testament condemns Homosexuality too (1Corth 6:9). This is a poor example.

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Tell me, why is okay to pick and choose which part of the Bible is right to follow? The Bible humbles no one.

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I don't pick and choose.
Perhaps some do. But not myself.

Jesus is quite clear on which laws we are to follow and which aren't, who we should lesion to, and who not.

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So you just pick and choose at your own convenience?

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Asked and answered.

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Salem Witch Trials in Massachusetts, the Bible was used to condemn the suspected witches. I'm sure that was humbling

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I'll be the first to admit, more people have died at the hands of "Christians" than probably any other creed.

The actions of the "fundamentalist" at Salem do not represent the view of all Christians.
Many Christians have condemned the Salem which trials, and labeled them, “Un-Christian”. Anyone can twist the contexts of the bible. This is no special gift.

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So tell me, which rules do apply?

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Generally the laws of the old testament are in place. But with many exceptions. Such as Jewish tradition (including circumcision) no longer have any validity. Punishments are no longer called for, as [Christians] were told they have no right to judge others, and are to be meek and forgiving and excepting of everyone.

The 10 commandments for example.
The old testament is a good example of what god sees as right, and wrong.

Jesus made it quite clear how we are to live in the 'sermon on the mount'.
Also he had many other teachings and lessons that apply to salvation, and way of life. The rest of the bible also answers many questions about behavior.

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Uptown is a Christian. I am fully aware of this. Uptown, on the other hand, is not a sheep.

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I am confused.
Does Uptown not believe in the bible?
If she does, then surely she would know about these "degrading" areas concerning women. Why would she stand for that? Sound like a sheep to me.

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So would I

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So uptown. Care to explain why you are in a woman-hating religion that wishes to degrade you?

Dearest Korith, please attempt to understand my previous replies to thread before gnawing at them. In response to Spud, who said: "The Bible doesn't degrade women, rather, it humbles all of humanity," I posted excerpts from the same text expressing the blatant contradictions to his statement.

The Old Testament is filled with violence, injustices, hatred towards females, homosexuals, etc.

The New Testament was written because Jesus had died for the sins of all humanity, therefore voiding the previous testament.

The Bible, in its entirety, is comprised of BOTH Testaments. A Christian can argue that homosexuality is wrong because the Old Testament says so. If someone asks a Christian if they can sell his/her daughter into slavery to support his/her household, a Christian would say that doing such would be an un-Christian like act, BUT the Old Testament says that, in certain circumstances, those acts are acceptable.

Tell me, why is okay to pick and choose which part of the Bible is right to follow? The Bible humbles no one.

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punishments of the old testament no longer apply... the point of Jesus' sacrifice.

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...

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Majority of these rules no longer apply.

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So you just pick and choose at your own convenience? In the Salem Witch Trials in Massachusetts, the Bible was used to condemn the suspected witches. I'm sure that was humbling. So tell me, which rules do apply? Obviously those pertaining to homosexuality, and everything that "normal" people shouldn't be associated with?

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I do not see why would bring them up.

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If you would have read, you would have seen that I was responding to Spud.

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This might work with your run of the mill take everything for grated Christian, but if you have a point your trying to make, it isn't going to work with me.

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If you can't see my point, I can do nothing for you.

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If you where going for degrading women, I am shocked you didn’t pick the usual
“Women not allowed to speak in church” route.

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I will if you keep insisting, sweetie.

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But anyway if you really think the bible is degrading to women, then would you care to debate this issue with me?

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Any time.

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Or perhaps uptown? Seems strange to me, someone who is your friend, and a “sheep”(as you like to call Christians) and now a “Sheep” to a religion that hates her.

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I love uptown to death. She has a stable head on her shoulders, and I have no trouble tolerating her, like I do with many individuals here. Uptown is a Christian. I am fully aware of this. Uptown, on the other hand, is not a sheep. The fundies are the sheep, and uptown is far from a fundamentalist. I have many friends who are Christians, but are not sheep. If you choose to go that route, it's your life and your spirituality.

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I would like to see what she would have to say in her defense.

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So would I. I don't think I've ever debated with uptown, most likely because I rarely disagree with her.

Erm New Age has nothing to do with being gay. 'cept for the fact they accept everyone....

Much luv

~*FOXY*~

is new age like accepting the gays or being gay?
if its either i am lol. well im not gay but i like gays hehe.

I used to get in fights ALL THE TIME with my Christian friend about being new age. She used to tell me I'm going to hell, and I used to say I couldn't since hell does not exsist. I mean it's really sweet she was trying to save my soul, but I didn't think it needed to be saved.

I don't consider myself new age anymore, but more open-minded to new ideas.

Just remember, you can't make someone believe what you do Celtic. I mean that's what New Age is all about, finding it for yourself what is right. Some people aren't ready for that right now.

much luv

~*FOXY*~

Gemini, the punishments of the old testament no longer apply. That was the whole point of Jesus' sacrifice.

So why do bring that up?

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These are from the Old Testament, which is half of the Bible. Therefore, these passages came from the book that everyone holds so dearly.

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Majority of these rules no longer apply.

I do not see why would bring them up.

This might work with your run of the mill take everything for grated Christian, but if you have a point your trying to make, it isn't going to work with me.

If you where going for degrading women, I am shocked you didn’t pick the usual
“Women not allowed to speak in church” route.

But anyway if you really think the bible is degrading to women, then would you care to debate this issue with me?
Or perhaps uptown? Seems strange to me, someone who is your friend, and a “sheep”(as you like to call Christians) and now a “Sheep” to a religion that hates her.

I would like to see what she would have to say in her defense.

true christians dont hate anybody....what's really sad is all of these "christians" that hold themselves as greater than others. LOVE EVERYONE IF YOU REALLY THINK YOU'RE LIKE JESUS.
fyi: i'm christian and i think new age is fine. as do most REAL christians that i know.