How come christianity's standards to get into heaven have evolved over time? Am I supposed to believe that since people wheren't as culturally developed five or six hundred years ago they wheren't true christians?
The fact is as Shade has already said, Gods standards have not changed, he has always desired for us to believe in him, to choose to believe in him, and once we believe in God we then have a choice to choose his way...this has never and will never change...
As for those who partook in some of the events you have previously mentioned, i believe they were misguided and in cases simply not Christians but people using the church as a way to gain power and wealth...however not all christians of a few centuries ago were such people to go around burning people at the stake...John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon to name a few...
In answer to whether these people went to hell, you have to ask did these people repent of the actions they took before they passed away if the answer is yes then they were forgiven because God does not care what you have done, if you repent and turn to him and his way...
KJV Psalm 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
KJV 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If however these people came to their end prior to repenting of the things they did that were in contridiction to Jesus and his teachings then unfortunately they face an eternity without God...
Going to hell depends on one thing according to the Christian: have you accepted that you've sinned, iniquity is found in you, and have you recognised the sacrifice Jesus made for every person? Additionally, it is encouraged to follow Jesus' teachings and strive to be closer to God. I can't answer for the people six hundred years ago. I can hardly answer for Christians today. It's a personal decision, and it is impossible to know whether every "Christian" really follows Christ.
...a Wandering Star for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever...
How come christianity's standards to get into heaven have evolved over time? Am I supposed to believe that since people wheren't as culturally developed five or six hundred years ago they wheren't true christians? Does that mean that all the people that supposedly lead pious lives throughout history went to hell because they couldn't follow christ's ideal like people today do? The church considered burning people and making them convert by force acceptable a few century's ago. In fact, priests who unmasked witches and carried out conversions where suposed to recieve god's favor. Now a days that type of behavious is considered inhuman and barbaric, and the church does not condone it. Does that mean that all those good christians according to their temporal standards actually went to hell?
And you saying that you're a mormon does not answer my question.
I don't know much about Mormons, but if you stated it as your opinion and not as every Christian/Mormon's opinion I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. In that way, you wouldn't be speaking for everyone else, especially if they might disagree with you.
...a Wandering Star for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever...
It's not that it's private. Because of my religion being so disputed, I don't want people to misinterpret my words and make a mess that I don't want to have to fix. It isn't really that controversial in that way, but there are all sorts of people that twist everything that people of my religion say. Hint: I'm not just an everyday Christian. I'm Mormon.
Just because nobody understands you, that doesn't mean you're artistic.
I'm not getting into that today. If you really want me to answer that truthfully, NOISEmail me, and I will. But it will just cause a random newbie to start a whole tangent not connected to Christian views of sexuality and gender.
I don't think that has anything to do with sex, and if you're admitting it somehow does that just makes the discussion much more interesting. If you really feel it's something private or not worth sharing with everyone so be it, but we've arrived here following the natural course of the topic, so I don't see why you can't say whatever you have to say publicly.
Originally posted by speed: It's not just that shade, look at history. If they wheren't real christians then who the hell is? Must I believe that god's word was intented for the 21st century? because in the past people just wherent culturally evolved enough to be true christians as you'd call them.
There's some inconsistency here.
I'm not getting into that today. If you really want me to answer that truthfully, NOISEmail me, and I will. But it will just cause a random newbie to start a whole tangent not connected to Christian views of sexuality and gender.
Just because nobody understands you, that doesn't mean you're artistic.
It's not just that shade, look at history. If they wheren't real christians then who the hell is? Must I believe that god's word was intented for the 21st century? because in the past people just wherent culturally evolved enough to be true christians as you'd call them.
Religion is supposed to be made of absolutes, but if god is the one to judge us, how can I trust a god that for some reason considered burning women that liked herbs correct only 400 years ago? And how can I trust a god that only 60 years ago didn't seem to have a problem with hanging people based on their skin color. Check Alabama's history, you'll find plenty of devout christians that sympathized with the KKK, they led pious lives, and followed each and every word in the bible.
They're not...real Christians. Jesus taught a lifestyle of love and acceptance. People who did that, and who do it now aren't Christian, and should never call themselves that. It's hard to distinguish between a true Christian sometimes, and someone who says they are but doesn't act like it, but there is a difference! There are false pastors, and liars and thieves in the church, and it's sad that Christians have a harder time seeing it than other people... If we could just see it, it would be easier to rid the church and Christianity's name of these people. But please, just becuase they radically believe they're following God's word, doesn't make them akin to us..
...a Wandering Star for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever...
You're missing the point. In fact, you're just one of those people who seem to think that we are in dire need of a national emergency.
No, in fact, apocalypse and all that crap just strengthens radicalism. In the US it tends to give evangelists and right wingers more power, so no, I would rather things improve.
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That's what's marriage is about. An equal partnership.
Marriage has never been an equal partnership, that's what you'd want us to believe but in practice marriage has allways been submissive. If you go back a few centuries you'd have to admit that marriages took place based on economic convenience. A couple would marry their daughter to gain riches, or social stature. All of these marriages where christian marriages, carried out with the consent of the church(there was no such thing as civil unions then). It so happens that at the time this was deemed correct by the church, now, if the word of god is absolute, how is it possible that over time what was considered correct is now considered primitive and intolerable. The Church does not not condone marriage by conveniency now a days. Either we are missinterpreting the word of god, or these people wheren't good christians after all. This would mean that even if you try your best to be one, if for some reason you do not follow god's principle you will go to hell. That seems strange specially considering that i wasn't their fault, they just hadn't reached a high enough level of cultural development to know better. Now, continuing with god's word as an absolute, we must asume this makes sense somehow. How is it possible that for 2000 years what is deemed correct by god has changed? was christianity only meant for the XXth century and onwards? even at the start of the XXth century there where people that had unacceptable attitudes according to todays standards.
Religion is supposed to be made of absolutes, but if god is the one to judge us, how can I trust a god that for some reason considered burning women that liked herbs correct only 400 years ago? And how can I trust a god that only 60 years ago didn't seem to have a problem with hanging people based on their skin color. Check Alabama's history, you'll find plenty of devout christians that sympathized with the KKK, they led pious lives, and followed each and every word in the bible. Did all of these people go to hell? Must I believe, like I previously said, that christianity was meant for people like you and me, culturally evolved to a point where barbaric behaviour is almost null? Heaven must be kind of empty...
Just in case you don't get what I'm heading at, religion and the interpretation of the bible is not rigid, there is not one way to understand things. One's personal interpretation is what establishes what is correct in biblical terms. You do not posses absolute truth, and much less the ONE correct interpretation of the bible.
Stop trying to tell me and the rest of the people on here what is right and wha is wrong.
I ask because my bible says in Genesis 2 v 18, '...And the Lord God said, "it is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."...'
That is discrimination. A HELPER. Not a companion. Not a mate. No. Women where meant to be men's helpers. You're just as deluded as every other christian I've spoken to about these matters, I don't know why I'm even making the effort to show you something so obvious.
You're missing the point. In fact, you're just one of those people who seem to think that we are in dire need of a national emergency.
Man is a helper to woman as well. They are yoked together. That's what's marriage is about. An equal partnership. Man has his role in it, and woman has her role in it. But they're both equal. Equal, but different. It's a partnership, not a dictatorship. You're missing the point.
Just because nobody understands you, that doesn't mean you're artistic.
I ask because my bible says in Genesis 2 v 18, '...And the Lord God said, "it is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."...'
That is discrimination. A HELPER. Not a companion. Not a mate. No. Women where meant to be men's helpers. You're just as deluded as every other christian I've spoken to about these matters, I don't know why I'm even making the effort to show you something so obvious.
Shade, you contradict yourself, please clarify for me are you a Christian?
Unfortunately I'm not contradicting myself. I am Christian, or I am trying to be. [but the details of that aren't between me and you] Personal..situations, have led me to the impression that God either makes mistakes or keeps them from being fixed, being impartial and letting someone else reach into your life and fuck things up.. And I'm not talking about Jesus. I'm talking about God, the father. I have absolutely no doubt in Jesus.
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So i will continue saying as a Bible believing Christian that i believe Homosexuality to be a Sin
Just compromise, okay? It doesn't matter if that's what you believe by what you've seen in the Bible. I'm not the only Christian who believes it is not a sin. You are not the only Christian in the world.
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but by people compromising Gods word in order to not offend will only help to distance people from God...
Yes, I agree. Which is why we should look at the original texts. What are you afraid of? Hell, I know I could be wrong. Trust me, I doubt everything I come into contact with; it's who I am. I have nothing to lose, you have everything to gain...
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but that is only love when it is in the context of Gods plan and design...
Love, in it's pure form is divine. Divine. I refuse to diminish that by worldly views of caps and precautions. And to clarify my position on homosexuality, here it is in a small nutshell. I don't believe the act of homosexual sex is right. I would go so far as to say it is a sin, being sodomy in nature. (I mean, God killed a whole region for that) I take homosexuals on an individual basis. If they say they're homosexual, fine. I don't care. I don't judge, I don't even think about it. But I generally disbelieve them. I have met some who are completely true in what they say. It is not a choice. It is not lust. It is true love, soul to soul, and for those few, I keep my hope alive, and I stand my ground. I may be a romantic, but I believe in love, above all else, is important and admirable.
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You see being a christian is not just Accepting Christ once it is accepting him everyday and walking his way...
Indeed.
...Men were bakers once.
...a Wandering Star for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever...
Java -- in the future, please try to condense all your writing into one post. To maintain the "flow of the boards," we try to limit double and triple-posting (posting two or three times in succession on one thread).
Its interesting the point you bring up about sexual discrimination...i agree there is still some discrimination and the world has a long way to go before some people stop believing they are better than others...however to have the mindset that christians are the cause of it is crazy...what passage within the christian bible gives a man the right to discriminate against women or vice versa? Please show it to me.
I ask because my bible says in Genesis 2 v 18, '...And the Lord God said, "it is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him."...'
The fact that man needed a helper with his task and God created woman to help him implies that woman was just as capable in order to offer help rather than be a hinderance...
As for your question about,
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who is expected to be a better cook in your house? Who is expected to go shopping?
The fact that the bible hands the giving birth to children and keeping the household, by that i mean cooking etc to the woman is in no way discrimination it is simply the way we are designed, the man designed to go out and plough the field, the woman to make home, now if a couple decide they wish to do things differently they can they may not always be suitable for the same jobs as each other but they a free to choose, would you use a screwdriver to knock in a nail?...or do you have breasts? or a womb? would you like to be fairly treated and impregnated with child? it may hurt coming out mind...The fact is in a christian household each half of the marriage equally contributes not always in the same way, but each has their contribution that is equally needed in order for the household to function 100% correctly...the bible teaches the opposite to what you have said is our fault...it teaches equality, it teaches that ALL are loved by God...
The discriminantion you speak about is not Christians fault it is the fault of people who do not know christ or his teachings.
So I guess it's just coincidence that I would get payed about 20 or 30% more than you would if we where to have the same job and the same working conditions. Discriminaton is everywhere. If you apply for a job and a man with equal qualification apply's along side you, guess who is going to get it.
Actually, in today's world, I would. Because it would "maintain diversity."
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Also, who is expected to be a better cook in your house? Who is expected to go shopping?
My mom. That's because it's a gender role (and she's the stay-at-home one because they worked it out that way). She loves it though. And in my uncle/aunt's house (same religion) it's opposite.
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Sexual discrimination is present in every part of social life, we have just chosen to ignore it because its not convenient for us to admit that our supposedly free society doesn't give equal treatment to both halves of it's populous.
Uhh...yeah it does.
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This may have seemed off topic, but I bring it up because social structure in the western world derives from the judeo-christian faith's, thus religion is largely responsible for the current status of women as lesser beings. A century ago you couldn't have voted in a democratic election, not because there was a political motivation for not wanting women to vote, but because women where factually viewed as inferior beings, with lesser reasoning capability, and obviously, due to this, there was no reason for them to be involved in political life. Christianity justified this for a long time, and now that we know that we are equal in all aspects discriminaton still prevails in teh form of social organization deriving from a faith that considered you inferior.
Actually, in my form of Christianity, women are considered equal. They always have been. It's in our scriptures. Has been since the restoration. And I'm actually really sick of the Christians have caused every evil thing in the world today.
Just because nobody understands you, that doesn't mean you're artistic.
Shade, you contradict yourself, please clarify for me are you a Christian?
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Not all Christians believe it is a sin, and I'm not talking about just me here
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I do believe he made a mistake, or failed to fix one...
As a christian you can't possibly know Jesus then say that he is fallible and makes mistakes...
You may very well go to a church and may even read the Bible, but that is not being christian, you cant take the bits of the bible and God that you like and ignore the bits that contradict your own lifestyle or lifestyles of freinds and family...
So i will continue saying as a Bible believing Christian that i believe Homosexuality to be a Sin...now you may find people out there that will give you hope that the bible can be used to back up homosexuality...but those people will only serve to condem homosexuals to a future without christ, you can not dilute the word of God and make God palletable for people, God is God, his word is Truth...I feel that i need to state i hold no malice or sour feelings towards anyone who is homosexual, i do not think myself better, people who commit the sin of Homosexuality are no worse than people who lie...sin is sin to God, but by people compromising Gods word in order to not offend will only help to distance people from God...
And i have seen it stated that you agree Homosexuality is a sin, but you say Love is not a sin...i agree Love is not a sin but that is only love when it is in the context of Gods plan and design...God only planned for man to love woman, and within the bounderies of marriage that love is expressed as sex, God then blesses that union with potential for children...God never planned for a man to love a man in anyway other than Father and Son, freind and friend, brother and brother...
What is this love that you say is different to homosexuality? Please help me to understand what your saying and defending.
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Actually...you're wrong. Self delusionment is a common act. Also, consider this. A child joins the religon, and by joins, I mean accepts Jesus, for some reasons. This makes it happy, pleases it's parents, makes it accepted, etc. It is a taught thing, in many homes.
And when it gets tough, that person comes to the crossroads where they choose to go it Gods way or their own, i have agreed with you that it can be forced upon you, but at a point and maybe several points in your life you have to choose God or the other way...being a christian is about walking a path that God puts before you, at every cross roads a person who confesses to be christian (a follower of Christ) will have to choose Gods way or his/her own...if you are in a forced church going life to please others and to be accepted you will and this i promise fail to choose Gods way and not get back onto the path until you CHOOSE for yourself to follow him...You see being a christian is not just Accepting Christ once it is accepting him everyday and walking his way...
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I am Christian, or I am trying to be. [but the details of that aren't between me and you] Personal..situations, have led me to the impression that God either makes mistakes or keeps them from being fixed, being impartial and letting someone else reach into your life and fuck things up.. And I'm not talking about Jesus. I'm talking about God, the father. I have absolutely no doubt in Jesus.