The bible does tend to be a bit one-sided, doesn't it? We should probably attribute that to the times. Or maybe not. People seem to take a lot of things literally that shouldn't be taken as such.

quote:

leaving the natural use of the woman

Fuck Paul or whoever wrote that. If you want to use the bible in a discussion atleast try to use verses that respect both halfes of humanity.
(and to clear up possible missunderstandings due to a profile error, I'm a guy)

It's homosexual lust. Lust ≠ Love.

quote:

He wasn't just inspired by God, he was speaking for God.

He was a disciple. Spreading the word of God. A man. A man who can import his own opinion. (as he has stated before, must I repeat that?)

quote:

Originally posted by Shade:
I shouldn't need to list them all. I also belive this is talking about worshiping other gods. Previous verses mention that, and then the ones you show are God's verdict, so to speak. So it could refers to lust pertaining to worshiping other gods, such as religous orgies (as I have previously stated in this thread, though to a different verse). It doesn't say homosexuality is wrong. It says lust is wrong. That verse with men going in lust for one another? It's just one type of lust. And can I mention that this is not written by God, but by Paul? Who has stated before that the things he writes are his own opinion. He believes them to be inspired by God, but men can be wrong, and I've known many a preacher to insert his own personal opinion into sermons.

Yes, lust is bad. No arguing that. "men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly" That seems pretty much like homosexuality to me.

Furthermore, yes, this is written by Paul. I'm well aware of that fact. But Paul was more than a preacher. He was a prophet. He wasn't just inspired by God, he was speaking for God. That's what prophets do. If I believed that every word coming out of the Bible was just an opinion from some preacher from Palestine (I liked the alliteration, I realize they were from a bunch of places), where would I be?

Are there any verses in the Bible addressing Lot (I think that's the correct English translation, not sure) and his people? In the Koran, that's basically where the verses on homosexuality come from, so I'm just wondering if there's any mention of him in the Bible. I understand the issue with mistranslation, but it does seem very much like the Bible is endorsing the man + woman arrangement consistently throughout its contents.

quote:

Some people struggle with heterosexual lusts. Some people struggle with homosexual lusts. It's their temptation in life. But they need to control it, just like we all need to learn to control our unrighteous urges.

That basically sums up my views on homosexuality. I have no hatred towards people who sin though; I know better than anyone that I am a sinner.

quote:

To discuss with a non-christian or even to try and put forward the life and the moral stands i as a bible believing christian live wont make much sense...

It makes perfect sense. There are non-Christians who believe in God you know.

Um, okay, hubbabaloo. Just a few things to mildly put to you. It names lust primarially, so that includes every kind of lust, aye? I shouldn't need to list them all. I also belive this is talking about worshiping other gods. Previous verses mention that, and then the ones you show are God's verdict, so to speak. So it could refers to lust pertaining to worshiping other gods, such as religous orgies (as I have previously stated in this thread, though to a different verse). It doesn't say homosexuality is wrong. It says lust is wrong. That verse with men going in lust for one another? It's just one type of lust. And can I mention that this is not written by God, but by Paul? Who has stated before that the things he writes are his own opinion. He believes them to be inspired by God, but men can be wrong, and I've known many a preacher to insert his own personal opinion into sermons.

As promised i have returned, i will as soon as i'm settled i'll get back to our discussions...

Hope you are all well...

I haven't had time to do this yet. Work has got me tied around their little finger, and my favourite book just came out *guilty smile* but I'll get to it soon.

speed, you are absolutely right concerning standard debate. However, when it deals with something as precious as religion, it is slightly absurd to ask someone (who has feelings that are undeniable to them) to even entertain the possibility that a God whom they know does not exist. Things such as abortion or homosexual marriage and such, are so deeply rooted in religion, that the rules of debate are ignored. There's to much passion involved. I'm not going to be able to ever convert you over the internet, so I won't even try. Because there's some spiritual things involved. It's not all intellectual things. I'd like it to be...I really would. I'm that type of a person. But it isn't, and I'm not going to be able to convert you to the idea of God over the internet. So you'll just have to suffice it that we can't debate this that way.

But you cannot ask us to concede that God might not exist. It's unthinkable to some.

And the original question was whether or not Christian theology supports or not the idea of bisexuality. So for the sake of the debate, the Bible is THE source.

quote:

Why 350.000 different species of beetles?

Vareity is the spice of life?

quote:

because there is no substantial proof in the first place that does prove it's existence

I would just like to point out that the key to God's existance is "faith" which is baseless with proof

quote:

Faith is the evidence of things unseen, and your point has a flip side for yourself, disproove God exists...you make the point about absolute truth and that i can not judge the validity of anything based on my personal interpretation of reality...How then does someone who is not a christian, i assume this because of,

quote:
In a debate the bible doesn't count as a source because you cannot prove its validity.

Make judgements about Christian Beliefs and the Word and the instruction of God and whether it is right or wrong based upon your personal interpretation of reality...a reality that does not know the God of Genesis?

You don't seem to understand it, I don't have to disprove the existence of the divine. The mere fact that it is divine implies it is intangible, unperceptible, unsubstantial, and therefore according to the logic that applies to everything in our universe, less likely to exist. I don't have to disprove anything, because there is no substantial proof in the first place that does prove it's existence. The only thing there is is a 2000 year old book written by humans who felt iluminated.

Also, regarding your debating skills, when there is a confrontation on an issue and the two or more people involved have radically different views it is mandatory to abord the debate from a neutral point to be able to achieve an advancement.
In this case I would have to concede that god might possibly exist, and you would have to concede that maybe he/she/it doesn't.
Neither of us believes these concessions, but it is the only possible way for the conversation to advance.
If you are unwilling to make concessions then you're hopeless in any sort of debate because you stall the issue on your grounds and there is no way any conclusions other than your own be drawn from the debate.


Let's continue from here, I concede that god may exists, but my perception of reality is one where there is no divine. Even so, I may be interested in certain issues that might suggest the existence of a divine other than the existence of the bible which like I said I can't count as proof. There have been to many forged books throughout history, so simple mathematical statistics encourage me to distrust the bible as a source.

Now I present you with a question that concedes the existence of a divine:

Why 350.000 different species of beetles?

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


There you go. It's a King James quote, by the way. I only have King James and Joseph Smith Inspired. They're the two used in my church, so it's all I've got.

Oh, by the way, the word "gave" (in context of "The Lord gave them up unto") in the Greek version meant more like...surrendered kind of. We don't really have a word for it.

Would you quote that for me? I have a few notes on it, but I don't have the verses (and am too lazy to go to my room to get my bible). Also, I don't have much time at the moment.

Shade, just to throw this out there, try to discount Romans 1:24-32. I agree that Leviticus, though it gives us some insights, is not absolute law, because as we learn in Ephesians, the Mosaic law was voided with the sacrifice of Christ.

Personally, I feel that homosexuality is a choic, but attraction to those of the same gender is not. I feel that everyone has individual weaknesses. Personally, I have a bit of a problem with feeling I need to be better than others and comparing myself to other people, and sometimes I'm extremely uncompassionate. Some people struggle with heterosexual lusts. Some people struggle with homosexual lusts. It's their temptation in life. But they need to control it, just like we all need to learn to control our unrighteous urges.

And, I don't believe that we need to cast them out, hate them, hurt them, beat them, et cetera. Why could anyone call themselves a Christian and act that way toward any human being on earth? I marvel at that.

Don't think that I hate gays/lesbians/bis. I don't think they're right, and I believe that there are problems that they need to solve, but as I told my friend who is a lesbian when she found out that I do not agree with homosexuality, it does not taint my veiw of anybody. "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

quote:

this is neither an unclean thing or a peace thing, it is infact to do with ancient Idol worshipping practices...so i would ask who said that the condemnation of sodomy was for cleanliness...i would also ask where you source for your statement

The old Levitical Laws were a pathway to salvation. Sodomy was condemed because it was ritually unclean. The word "abomination" is more closely translated to ritual uncleanliness and abomination "before" God, as in a ritual. It refers, like the baby quote, to pagan worshipping, such as in Greece, where ritual orgies were common. (I consent that Greece might not have existed in this time, but sex is a huge deal to pagans of any type)

quote:

comes from, does Jesus in the New Testament of the bible say to man go take a man to be your husband, or woman go take another woman to be your wife?

I marvel at why Christians say this. Just because there is lack of details on a subject we automatically should say it's a sin? or it's wrong?

NOTE: Being gay and sodomy are not the same thing. Hetorosexuals can practice sodomy. (gasp)

quote:

mans sexual love (Homosexual) love for a man be right or a womans sexual love for a woman be right?

You just don't get it. Pure love isn't always sexual. I can't debate this with you if you don't even know how to love.

quote:

What mistranslation of Genesis do you refer to when you ask me not to be an idiot?

Not from Genesis, from Leviticus. It's Lev 18 22, the all-around Homosexuality Is A Sin verse.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GreenMod,

Lady's and Gents...so many replies a so little time, i will try my best to carry this discussion on with you all so here goes, please forgive me if i miss a point out...

quote:

He means a souce other than the bible. In a debate the bible doesn't count as a source because you cannot prove its validity.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe God's plan changed? Maybe he didn't have a plan...

When I paint I start with one color but that doesn't mean I am going to use that one color on the whole painting.

The Bible is as trust worthy as any eye witness account in court, in court it is not the job of the defence to proove innocence it is the job of the prosecution to proove the defence wrong, i therefore ask you to proove the Bible not valid...both yourself and myself were given a choice to believe in Christ or not, i have chosen to believe in him and therefore i take the word of God as my source.

As for God not having a plan or changing, the bible clearly say God is the same Today, Yesterday and Tommorrow...so he hasnt changed...and he definately had a plan and still does i will not bible bash you but the word says it throughout for example it says, '...for i knew you before you were formed...i prepared the works for you today in advance...' the wording of the passages may be a little paraphrased but if needs be i can find the verses for you...God most definately had a plan for my life, he also has a plan for your life...in his great love and mercy he gave you the choice to walk in it or not....

quote:

its not a sin to be gay

homosexuality (love and sexual attraction to one of the same gender) is never condemed in the bible, just the act of sodomy (anal sex)

the old testiment has a passage condeming sodomy, thats true

however the old testiment condems plenty of things that all christians tend to ignore today, such as the eating of shellfish

this is because (from a secual point of view) the old testiment is a essientally a handbook for surviving in the desert as a band of nomads

it contains rules designed to keep life peaceful (do not covet your neighbors possesions, do not sleep with anyones wife but your own)

as well as rules designed to protect you from sickness (do not sleep with a woman while she is on her period, do not eat shellfish, do not commit sodomy)

in this day and age, sanitation has improved considerably since the time of the ancient israelites. Shellfish can be cooked and processed to keep you from getting food posioning. Hence chirstians arent as strict about not eating shellfish.

we now have condoms, these can be used to prevent you from getting a urinary tract infection during anal sex, hence sodomys condemnation in the bible is no longer relevant and homosexuality is no longer a sin.


QED bitch

You are very right to state that the Old Testament contains rules for clean living and peaceful living...however that is not all it contains, for example there is a rule given to Israel not to boil a baby goat in its own mothers milk...why? this is neither an unclean thing or a peace thing, it is infact to do with ancient Idol worshipping practices...so i would ask who said that the condemnation of sodomy was for cleanliness...i would also ask where you source for your statement

quote:

its not a sin to be gay

comes from, does Jesus in the New Testament of the bible say to man go take a man to be your husband, or woman go take another woman to be your wife?

Also you point out that we now have condoms to make sodomy safer, does that also mean, that now we have drugs that can kill someone without pain that it is ok to take anothers life? Is that no longer relevant, because we have improved our methods?

quote:

The existence of god isn't absolute or proven, so as long as you stay on these boards and talk about religious matters i suggest you accept the fact that you don't posses absolute truth and thus you can't judge the validity of anything based on your personal interpretation of reality.
And by the way, are you an evangelical christian?

Faith is the evidence of things unseen, and your point has a flip side for yourself, disproove God exists...you make the point about absolute truth and that i can not judge the validity of anything based on my personal interpretation of reality...How then does someone who is not a christian, i assume this because of,

quote:

quote:
In a debate the bible doesn't count as a source because you cannot prove its validity.

Make judgements about Christian Beliefs and the Word and the instruction of God and whether it is right or wrong based upon your personal interpretation of reality...a reality that does not know the God of Genesis?

What mistranslation of Genesis do you refer to when you ask me not to be an idiot?

Again i ask the question where does,

quote:

God say to a man go take another man as your husband, or woman go take another woman as your wife

You say,

quote:

But true, I don't believe homosexuality is right and God given.

And i will agree that love is God given, that said when Adam and Eve mucked up everything in this world was corrupted, and as you state Homosexuality is not right and not God given
how can a mans sexual love (Homosexual) love for a man be right or a womans sexual love for a woman be right? You say it yourself Homosexuality is not right and not God given...I believe this 'love' to be a corrupted version of the love God gave to Adam and Eve...God gave love but God gave Love (eros) to one man and one woman to become one flesh...In answer to am i an evangelical Christian i make no distiction, i am a Christian who believes in the word of God, who is expected by God to Evangelise, To tell people about his love for them and his desire for them to know him and live his way...i attend a Baptist Church if that helps you define me...however i am simply a Christian, a follower of Christ.

quote:

quote:
Unless you're arguing between two Christians
Eh, true. One point for you.

This point you have awarded tickles me...you are very right a non-christian may never understand this discussion because they dont know Jesus, his Forgivness of their sin or his ever accepting embrace (they can, all they need to do is ask him)...
To discuss with a non-christian or even to try and put forward the life and the moral stands i as a bible believing christian live wont make much sense...so you may be right that unless i am talking to christians this wont mean to much...however i do believe that God can and does Speak to Non-christians through the word so i will continue to use it...

I may not be able to reply to any responses for a week as i will be away...however i look forward to our continuing discussions...

quote:

Unless you're arguing between two Christians

Eh, true. One point for you.

quote:

however you translate or mistranslate a word...God and his principles his ethics or morals (for want of better words) stay the same throughout the bible

Honestly. Mistranslation is key. If they were mistranslated to begin with, how can we know they're truly from God? How can we know that that's what he originally said? Don't be an idiot.

quote:

have not given you information and the truth, suprises me, the Word is the truth and clearly the bible shows in Gods original Plan Adam and Eve...also i am willing to concede that these passages do not use the word love, but that was not the issue you challenged,

You have shown me no proof. And I'm contesting this issue now. Love, not sex.

quote:

May i be so bold as to ask your reason for believing Homosexuality is right and God given?

Your version of the word of God was changed to fit people's own opinions. It was changed for the times. From Hebrew to Greek to English, and whatever other languages. (I mention Hebrew, because the Lev passage is also mistranslated between Hebrew and Greek)

But true, I don't believe homosexuality is right and God given. I believe Love is God given. Love is God given. You cannot deny that. And love is between a soul and a soul, no matter their physical sex or race.

quote:

I hope that i am being usful to your quest for truth, i am not writing this in order to belittle your beliefs or your life style...i would also never presume to know you...however i do believe the word says different to yourself.

Then do as you say. Give me stable proof.

quote:

In a debate the bible doesn't count as a source because you cannot prove its validity.

_{Unless you're arguing between two Christians}