So by this you say it's impossible to prove one way or another? I wonder why people have their mind set on both sides, then? They're "sure" they're right.

true. Then again, no information on the Nature v. Nurture debate is infalliable, especially not in these times

I read about that study, but there wasn't enough difference to be considered serious. It really did vary with everyone, among homosexuals and heterosexuals, and even with the two groups mixed. There really was no difference.

also, in the post starting with Restless Leg SYndrome, I was trying to be facetious, as well as weighty.

androgen sounds right. I lost the link that I had, going back to the Guttmacher Institute.
Aslo, some studies (as I know, not everything is right, just simply a study that I had read about) showed a possible size and developmental difference in the hypothalami of straight and homosexual men.

That's what i'm talking about. Think of BSA v. Dale. They ruled in favor of the BSA because of parent pressure on the BSA. The parents would pull their kids out of the troops, because of the irrational fear of pedophilia. Stats have shown that you're more likely to be molested by someone of the opposite sex that's close to you. That's the common misconception, that people who don't know any homosexuals make because of misinformation.

quote:

been substantial evidence found in recent years that a gene controlling certain horomone secretion might be responsible.

What hormone?

quote:

Nevermind that one of our Congressmen was writing naughty emails to his teenage male pages. Isn't it just a disease?

I would like to make it known that there is a distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. A clear distinction.

And, ah, that's it, because I've lost my train of thought ( and forgot I was making a post here, so it's been five minutes or so ).

quote:

Because if it is a choice then they have to live with the consequences that come along with that choice. If they are born that way then they can't help it, like being black....should not have the same rights as married people,...and they should not recieve any special protection because that is what happens when you make a choice.

Has anyone ever heard of Restless Legs Syndrome? It's where you move your leg about in your sleep. It's awful! You may have it. It may not keep you awake. It doesn't really harm you in any way. It may not bother you in the slightest, but none-the-less, it's awful. The pharmaceutical companies have declared it so. So, they've invented a drug, and you simply must take it. If you haven't heard of Restless Leg, by the way, you probably have Attention Deficit Disorder. Awful! We've got a lot of drugs for that one. You must take them.
You're depressed.
You're not sleeping enough.
You think you're shy, but you've actually got a social anxiety disorder.
Weak stream.
Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
You people have all kinds of ailments that you don't know about. Luckily, we've got drugs for every one of them. You must take them.
What i'm talking about is Same Sex Attraction Disorder, and what troubles me is why the folks in big pharmaceutical haven't developed a pill for this disease. Clearly, they're in the business of selling sickness. If there was a profit to be made, they would make it. And with an estimated gay population of over 10 million in the US alone, there's certainly a big enough market.
Could it be that they can't cure it?
Well, not to worry... If big pharmaceutical can't do it, maybe big religion can. And they are...
They're the ones who have coined the term, Same Sex Attraction Disorder. It's a very good name. Very important a good name... It's a crucial first step in disqualifying homosexuals as a segment of the population and categorizing them as a disease. It makes homosexuals seem less like people and more like... uh... the flu. And with terrible, awful symptoms...But cureable...
And therefore, less concerning when it comes to an individual's rights... freedom... privacy... marriage... Big religion is very concerned with marriage. Big religion is the one filling the pockets of congress. It actually got them to propose a constitutional ban on gay marriage. Think about that... A govermentally-imposed, systematic prejudice against a class based on their sexual orientation. Nevermind that one of the most trusted evangelical advisors to the president was himself having a homosexual affair on the side. Nevermind that one of our Congressmen was writing naughty emails to his teenage male pages. Isn't it just a disease?
And I thought it cureable. That's what they told me down at the... church. Well... You can legislate against it. You can give it a clever name and treat people for it. You can shut your eyes, have sex with your wife, and pretend that it all feels... right. You can join the church and swear to be celibate for the rest of your life. You can drive around on a Saturday night with a baseball bat and try to BEAT it out of some poor soul you happen to meet. You can even go to a courtroom and can testify as to your new leaf and how well it's all working. What a miracle!
My only response is... Give it time. We'll see.
Only in America! Only in a country that overtly and notoriously celebrates its prejudice against a class of people by proposing constitutional amendments!

God bless us all! Home of the brave!

quote:

I don't think you can be born gay because there was a study of these two identical twins and one grew up in a different place than the other and one ended up gay while the other one was strait...so, it was two people with the same genes, and that didn't stop them from having different views on genders. There are no such thing as "gay genes"

Going back to LoveJoyPeace's argument, which doesn't really sound like one when compared to an attack, there has been substantial evidence found in recent years that a gene controlling certain horomone secretion might be responsible.
But to address the "twins" issue; when a mother has type 2 (early onset) diabetes, she has a 50% chance of passing the allele to her twins, because each child recieves half the parent's DNA. Let's say both children have the allele. Just from chemicals in the body, the allele has just over a 30% chance of activating, giving the child type 2 diabetes. However, that allele might NEVER activate. That means you could have a "gay gene", if the gay gene theory is at all probable, and it hasn't fired. So I beg of you, grok staements in fullness before spurting out recapitulated heresay.

That's actually what it represents.

Somehow I picture people yelling when they use cap locks on their entire post.

My eyes hurt.. Too many capital letters..

I THINK FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN U SHOULD JUST BE U.I WOULDNT WORRY ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE THINK IF GAY MAKE U HAPPY THEN BE GAY.A LOT OF US WORRY ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE THINK WHICH IN TURN MAKES IT HARD FOR THE KIDS TO COME OUT THE CLOSET.AND THE END OF THE DAY WE R ALL HUMAN AND WHO I LAY DOWN WITH IS ON ME

Is this not a country where freedom of choice is a liberty dear to everyone? Or did something change while I was asleep?

People choose hair color. People choose clothes. People choose what music to listen to, what car to drive, and what church to attend. Yet none of these matter much. Why should lifestyle choices be any difference?

What goes on in a person's personal life is no business of the rest of the world, so long as society is not disrupted by that person's actions. Last time I checked, homosexuality doesn't disrupt society as a whole. No more so than having oral sex or owning a cat.

There is no argument that can prove that people should be discriminated against based on a lifestyle choice, assuming that it is a choice that they make. This is, after all, a free country.

quote:

In my opinion it is a calling of the soul.

To me its whatever you were brainwashed into as a kid.

In my opinion it is a calling of the soul.

But I might agree that religion should not be protected in law.

quote:

I don't consider religious affiliation a choice

Well it is a choice. You do choose to go to church and to believe in a specific doctorine.

quote:

You can make a religious choice and get protection for that. Explain that to me.

That is about one's soul. I don't consider religious affiliation a choice

quote:

they should not get protection at work, and they should not recieve any special protection because that is what happens when you make a choice.

You can make a religious choice and get protection for that. Explain that to me.

quote:

I don't think you can be born gay because there was a study of these two identical twins and one grew up in a different place than the other and one ended up gay while the other one was strait...

Show your source. Twins have the same genes yet are never the "same" person so there's obviously more to who you are than your genetic makeup.

quote:

Why does it even matter if it's a choice or not? I've never been able to understand this.

Because if it is a choice then they have to live with the consequences that come along with that choice. If they are born that way then they can't help it, like being black.

If they choose it, then they should not have the same rights as married people, they should not get protection at work, and they should not recieve any special protection because that is what happens when you make a choice.