quote:

Originally posted by DrStrangelove:

The fact is that mental disorders are frequently caused by hormonal or chemical imbalances. There is mounting evidence that homosexuality is a condition created by those factors.

I want to know where you got this information because the last thing i heard (about a month ago) was that homosexuality was proven to not be disease or disorder.

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No. By classifying it as a disability, that doesn't make the rights equal, that makes new special rights.

Firstly, I never said it was a disability, I said it was for lack of a better word at the moment. Second, disability/disorder legislation does not provide special rights, rather, it allows for universal rights to be ensured to those who are subject to discrimination due to thier condition. In this case, one could make a solid case for gay marriage under current legislation and interepreted constutional law.

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Dependsing on how crediable the source. I can't prove that it's not a disability, but I refuse to accept that until there is alot of proof. There are many claims that are made in the scientific community that don't hold through to actually be true.

I don't dissagree with any of that. I'm not one to make rash assumptions. I'm mearly trying to explore a "what if" scenerio that most people don't consider. However it's an inherent implication of homosexuality being a biological condition and not a choice.

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And this logical reason is?

Human sexual attraction and sexual desire is largely controled by a series of hormones produced at the onset of puberty, as well as a series of pheramones. Logically if homosexuality is merely a sexual attraction to the same sex, it is likely there is something awry with the pheramone receptors and the way the brain interprets those signals. That's probably one of the first places you'd look. So they've got a study that supports that hypothosis now, and that gives stronger crediblity.

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Are you using a different dictionary than me or something?

No. By classifying it as a disability, that doesn't make the rights equal, that makes new special rights.

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But what if it IS a condition with science behind it? Would you accept it then?

Dependsing on how crediable the source. I can't prove that it's not a disability, but I refuse to accept that until there is alot of proof. There are many claims that are made in the scientific community that don't hold through to actually be true.

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Secondly, however, there is evidence, not to mention a logical reason, why it would be caused by something similar.

And this logical reason is?

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It's very different. Transexuals feel like the other gender, while homosexuals are attracted to the same gender. Transexuals only change their physical state which is very different than tampering with a very big part of someone's mental state.

You're trying to tell me that major surgeries that involve massive identity change issues, not to mention a whole series of hormone supplements that affect, you guessed it, brain activity, isn't as dangerous or complex as a treatment that could be as simple as one pill?

Transexuals have to take all sorts of hormones, which affect brain chemistry in a large way, and in many cases increase the risk for cancers, and a generally shortend life span.

My point was that philosophically there's little difference. In both cases the person's bodies differ from what thier brain is telling them. A homosexual may feel trapped in thier sexual desires, and a transexual is trapped by the way they've absorbed the social norms for a gender they're not. Why should medical science provide a solution for one and not the other?

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No, thats not what the definition says. Homosexuality does not prohibit any function of the mind.

I never said it PROHIBITED function. But it certainly affects it. Either way it's more of a mishmash of the mind as well as the body telling the mind its sexual desires.

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you are making some very huge assumptions. I [and most homosexuals] do not want special rights.

How do you translate my statement of "equal rights" in to "special rights". I NEVER said anything about gay rights being about receiving special treatment. I was talking about LEGAL PRECEDENCE, which will help EQUAL rights court cases. Are you using a different dictionary than me or something?

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I don't want to be labeled as disabled or having a condition.

But what if it IS a condition with science behind it? Would you accept it then?

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For having such an "open mind" you seem awfully convinced that you are right about homosexuality being a chemical inbalance.

Firstly, I am far from convinced. Secondly, however, there is evidence, not to mention a logical reason, why it would be caused by something similar.

And what I've been trying to discuss all along is...what if it is? What if someone DOES come up with a treatment? People don't often think about this. And apparently it's very difficult to have a discussion about it also.

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Is this really that different from homosexuals who aren't comfortable with thier sexuality?

It's very different. Transexuals feel like the other gender, while homosexuals are attracted to the same gender. Transexuals only change their physical state which is very different than tampering with a very big part of someone's mental state.

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That's not true at all. A disorder is not something that prevents someone from having a happy life.

No, thats not what the definition says. Homosexuality does not prohibit any function of the mind.

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There's MOUNDS of legal precedence for equal rights for people with more or less beneign mental and behavioral conditions.

you are making some very huge assumptions. I [and most homosexuals] do not want special rights. I don't want to be labeled as disabled or having a condition. You are portraying gay rights as wanting benefits, when it is about equality. I don't want rights handed to me because someone decided that there's something wrong with homosexuality.

For having such an "open mind" you seem awfully convinced that you are right about homosexuality being a chemical inbalance.



And as a side note, this whole conversation reminds me of that joke where a man is calling into work and says "Sorry, i won't be at work today, I'm feeling too gay" as a spoof on it being a disability.

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Are you opposed to sex change operations then? Because it's the same situation. A "normal" life as someone sees it might involve sex change

I am not against it in the least, but if men weren't so heirarchal in society (yes, it is mostly our own fault), we might be more open to androgynous behavior, which I think is sometimes what these people want to explore. Sex change should be considered normal because some people may not be born psychologically the sex they biologically are, but because of our (male) views. Did you know we are (I don't remember the Xtimes more, so I won't post that) more likely to bash someone bordering the line of gender roles, especially other males? Why is there some sort of <still> so-called "natural" instinct to do so? I think we're awfully confused about what is natural and what is environmental...

Look at the bright side, people. At least showing that homosexuality is caused by some sort of chemical imbalance is better than having everyone assume (wrongly) that it's a choice.

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Are you saying that homosexuals should be put on medication to fix them if it is an imbalance?

If they want to be. And correct me if I'm wrong but except in the case of the criminally insane, NO ONE is required to take medication. What is wrong with giving people the option? You're doing EXACTLY what I said you would do, and assuming I'm a homophobe. It's apparent in the wording of your post. Thanks for the confidence and open mind.

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Holy crap. If I was gay I would be so offended by that.

Sounds like your were offended anyway. I really don't care if it's offensive to some people. I'm not degrading or slurring anyone, and there's no rational reason to be offended.

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The difference is, with transexuals, they have the sex change to be who they really feel like on the inside.

Is this really that different from homosexuals who aren't comfortable with thier sexuality?

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They're not changing their mental state at all, which is what the 'cure' to homosexuality would do. Changing a persons mental state when there is nothing wrong with it is dangerous.

Having a long series of dangerous surgeries is also dangerous. As for the last sentence, I guess we should throw out half of modern psychiatry.

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Which is exactly my point, it in no way prohibits a "natural, normal" life which it would have to in order to be classified as a disorder.

That's not true at all. A disorder is not something that prevents someone from having a happy life. It's something [an aliment] that, and I quote your definition, "affects the function of mind or body".

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The problem with the so called cure is that it does destroy homosexuality being considered normal. It's part of a percentage of the population and as soon as you claim to be able to change it, then all rights for homosexuals go right out the window. I have no faith in the ability oto change sexual orientation. People have been trying for years and it hasn't worked despite what certain "scientists" claim.

Actually I think it would strengthen gay rights. Proving that homosexualty was caused by a chemical imbalance would mean that it's more of a ( don't take this the wrong way! It's for lack of a better word) disability rather than a moral issue. There's MOUNDS of legal precedence for equal rights for people with more or less beneign mental and behavioral conditions.

As for your lack of faith in "scientists", I have no faith in "scientists" either. Regular scientists, sans quotations, however, I have a good deal of faith in. And it's those people who will figure this issue out, as long as the politicitians and activist groups stay the hell out of the way and supress findings because it differs from thier views. Be it anti or pro-gay rights.

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Originally posted by DrStrangelove:
My point was that bi-polar disorder, depression, etc. are mental disorders caused by genetics and/or imbalances, and therefore are equal to homosexuality if it indeed turns out to be caused by those factors. Being bi-polar is a disorder, and possibly, there is a disorder that causes homosexual behavior.

So I was telling you that essentially, you shouldn't feel any more insulted for being diagnosed with bipolarity than someone who is diagnosed with a disorder that leads to homosexual behavior and emotions.

\


Holy crap. If I was gay I would be so offended by that. As a Bi-polar I know something is wrong with me. They also have medications to help people live with my disease or the others like it. They put us on medications because with out them we are a danger to ourselves or others. Are you saying that homosexuals should be put on medication to fix them if it is an imbalance?

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They were (and are) a "very big deal" that addressed gender identity disorders, which in themselves are not well understood.

The difference is, with transexuals, they have the sex change to be who they really feel like on the inside. They're not changing their mental state at all, which is what the 'cure' to homosexuality would do. Changing a persons mental state when there is nothing wrong with it is dangerous.

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Isn't that the definition of homosexuality? Sexual attraction? Because I've seen no evidence that, aside from the conditions created by social stigma, homosexuality really affects any signifigant aspects of life outside of the sexual and the behaviors associated with sexuality.

Which is exactly my point, it in no way prohibits a "natural, normal" life which it would have to in order to be classified as a disorder.

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Secondly, I've probably got as good of an understand of it as you do.

I stand by what I said.

The problem with the so called cure is that it does destroy homosexuality being considered normal. It's part of a percentage of the population and as soon as you claim to be able to change it, then all rights for homosexuals go right out the window. I have no faith in the ability oto change sexual orientation. People have been trying for years and it hasn't worked despite what certain "scientists" claim.

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it's a very big deal to change something like that about someone and I think it should be more involved than "We can do it, so why not."

Are you opposed to sex change operations then? Because it's the same situation. A "normal" life as someone sees it might involve sex change. Should we never have created those procedures? They were (and are) a "very big deal" that addressed gender identity disorders, which in themselves are not well understood.

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The differences are in sexual nature, obviously, but there is no proof that it carries over to any other aspect of life.

Isn't that the definition of homosexuality? Sexual attraction? Because I've seen no evidence that, aside from the conditions created by social stigma, homosexuality really affects any signifigant aspects of life outside of the sexual and the behaviors associated with sexuality.

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I am a little frightened by your claiming that a cure is needed when you don't have a very clear understanding of the situation as far as I can tell.

Firstly, you've fallen into the same trap eveyone else always does. I've never claimed a "cure is needed". I've said I'm afraid of peopel freaking out and supporting bad science if homosexuality turns out to be a disorder and is reversible.
Secondly, I've probably got as good of an understand of it as you do. And yes I know that you're gay. I've been in tune to this sort of stuff for years now. Not to mention the fact that I had a close relationship with a bisexual girl for 7 months. I don't want you to have the impression that I'm some totally disconnected straight white guy telling anybody what they are. I'm just stating the evidence, and suggesting a few vauge ideas.

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And according to you, what is their reasoning?

Well, for one it seems to destroy the idea that homosexuality is natural and normal. It really doesn't do either of those. Secondly people tend to get the idea of a "mandatory cure" or some sort of fascist policy like that. Those fears are totally unfounded given our modern cultural history. Thirdly, it would force many people to re-evaluate themselves, which may not be pleasent. But to me it's better to know the facts rather than live a lie to support false ideas.

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I DO understand why some are offended. But thier reasoning is irrational to me.

And according to you, what is their reasoning?

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homosexuality might interfer with a "normal" life as they see it.

it's a very big deal to change something like that about someone and I think it should be more involved than "We can do it, so why not."

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It certainly affects the mind, as the norm for human activity is heterosexual.

According to you, perhaps. Being right handed is normal, because thats what most people are, but should we cure those lefties? It definitally affects the function of the brain.

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There's a clear difference in the brain reactions and chemistry for homosexual males.

According to one study. And this only looked at sex responces. It did not look at normal behavioral patterns. The differences are in sexual nature, obviously, but there is no proof that it carries over to any other aspect of life.

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I'm frightened by people's close-mindedness.

I am a little frightened by your claiming that a cure is needed when you don't have a very clear understanding of the situation as far as I can tell.

Scratch that, I DO understand why some are offended. But thier reasoning is irrational to me.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/94-05102005-486974.html

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Why treat it? Seriously, why? You treat depression, bipolarism, schizophreia, etc because it interfears with normal life. Why would you "treat" homosexuality when it has no negative effects?

For many, homosexuality might interfer with a "normal" life as they see it. I live with mild depression, and don't treat it at all. Other would chose to do so. I'm not talking about forcing someone to take anything. But if we research it, is there anything wrong with giving people that option? It's thier choice.

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Homosexuality in noway interfears with the function of the body or the mind, so cannot be considered a disorder.

It certainly affects the mind, as the norm for human activity is heterosexual. Somewhere along the way lines get mixed up. Read that article in the link. There's a clear difference in the brain reactions and chemistry for homosexual males.

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There are many things that have no "cure" even though they have a biological cause.

Most of these are infectious diseases, cancers, or non-chemical mental disorders.

My point is that we don't know entirely what causes it yet, however I'm frightened by people's close-mindedness. I don't understand why a possible treatment is so offensive.

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If it is indeed a brain/hormone/pheramone disorder, which I beleive it is, that means it can be treated.

Why treat it? Seriously, why? You treat depression, bipolarism, schizophreia, etc because it interfears with normal life. Why would you "treat" homosexuality when it has no negative effects?

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you shouldn't feel any more insulted for being diagnosed with bipolarity than someone who is diagnosed with a disorder that leads to homosexual behavior and emotions.

you are viewing homosexuality in the wrong light. It doesn't fall under dictionary.com's definition of a disorder:

quote:

dis·or·der
n.
A lack of order or regular arrangement; confusion.
A breach of civic order or peace; a public disturbance.
An ailment that affects the function of mind or body:

Homosexuality in noway interfears with the function of the body or the mind, so cannot be considered a disorder.

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I slightly believe it can be hereditary, as my very-into-gender-bias family has a lot of gays...out of nowhere.

I think it may be hereditary in some cases. Not all though, I think there are many factors.

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Ones caused by chemical biology and not environmental conditioning are likely to have some sort of a treatment.

There are many things that have no "cure" even though they have a biological cause.

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Actually, though, if it IS a chemical imbalance, the odds are that it can be "cured".

I agree, but last I heard, it was being theorized that it's caused by the size of neurons in the brain.

We are not animals. I don't think homosexuality is unnatural or any such nonsense. But the animal kingdom argument is a little off base I find. I don't like using it when defending carnivorism, and I don't like using it when defending sexuality. We have knowledge that makes us better than animals. When you use the animal argument you are allowing anti-gay types to classify you as acting like animals.

My point was that bi-polar disorder, depression, etc. are mental disorders caused by genetics and/or imbalances, and therefore are equal to homosexuality if it indeed turns out to be caused by those factors. Being bi-polar is a disorder, and possibly, there is a disorder that causes homosexual behavior.

So I was telling you that essentially, you shouldn't feel any more insulted for being diagnosed with bipolarity than someone who is diagnosed with a disorder that leads to homosexual behavior and emotions.