That's the one. Pretty trippy, but that's nothing new for Koontz.

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On a different note, a government that kills thousands of innocent people in war, supports the death penalty and ignores genocide in other countries is not a government with moral authority!

Oh I beg to differ, aside from the part about ignoring genocide. War and the the Death Penalty can be and in many cases are moral and just. See some of my other posts in various threads. If I go into them here we'll go way off topic.

Otherwise, I understand your point about "who's to decide?" However, we haven't had a true national debate about when a human life starts, just whether or not "abortion is ok". There's a distinct difference in those two debates. If you end up talking about abortion, you begin to enter into "oh well the orphanages are full" and "well there life would suck anyway".

What is needed is an answer to the question: When does human life begin. To me, the biological begining is conception, and the other alternatives (heartbeat, birth, brain activity) seem very vauge and wishy washy to me. Sort of apologist answer to the abortion question, rather than "when does life begin?".

Once this is decided in the courts, THEN you can start to talk about abortion. Right now Roe v. Wade is based upon the right to privacy. Right to privacy, however, is does not allow homicide in any other case.

For the record, I'm not 100% against abortion, but I do see it as a form of homicide. As such, it should have very heavy restrictions on it. This is far from the case now.

At least it's good to see a newbie who's articulate.

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I've been reading too much Dean Koontz. Don't mind me.

Yeah I'm halfway through that one myself.
One Door Away From Heaven, right?

That's kinky, Tarp.

I like you, gravity.

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Er, typically those guys are very pro-abortion ranging even into infanticide a la Peter Singer. Or am I thinking of the wrong thing?

I've been reading too much Dean Koontz. Don't mind me.

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Originally posted by DrStrangelove:

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It's important for women to have choices...or, you know, for girls like me who aren't ready for a kid, to have a second chance.

Understand though, that there are those that feel that abortion is murder, and nothing less. Is it still that important if you consider that? Would those same situations justify murder?

That IS a tough issue...I mean, I can definitely see both sides. It's a very gray area...I mean, is the baby a person or not? When does it become a living, breathing person? I think that until someone figures it out, we'll have to go on morals only...

Still, I think that a mass moral code is pretty wrong...I think we can all agree that murder is wrong (though there are some that feel that people deserve it), but we can't all agree on whether abotion is classified as murder. Sorry to sound like Thoreau, but who's to decide what's right for a person but that person? In the end, a person should have to answer to their conscience, not the government, especially in so gray an area.

Our orphanages are already over-crowded...I think I read that, on an average, a child in an orphanage spends about 8 years out of 18 years in the orphanage...the other 8 may be with a foster family, or maybe even a permanant family. I think it's silly to be having unprotected or unsafe sex if a couple isn't ready to have a baby, but the truth is, birth control isn't readily available at most government clinics...I just think that a baby should come into the world with a loving family waiting for it. I hate the thought of kids growing up really messed up just because their parents screwed up.

I guess I'm a bit more okay with abortion than most people, because I like my rights just as they are, and I believe in reincarnation and karma. I think that if a person aborts a fetus, it will stay with them forever...the government doesn't really need to punish them for it; karma will take care of it. Then again, that's just me.

On a different note, a government that kills thousands of innocent people in war, supports the death penalty and ignores genocide in other countries is not a government with moral authority!

someone that has an abortion is normaly someone who is in there teenage-years and they are not really eady to have kids. most of the time. girls they are just like oh it if i get pregent ill just have an abortion. and really its a good idea cause you dont have to get your parents involed and you can live your life the same way you had been before. yes you are killing a baby. but if you think about it. would you rather have someone have an abortion. or have any another kid found on the street. or killed or abused because tehy people cant take care of the baby. really you cant say abortion is bad cause what if a girl gets rape. would you really want to carry around someone's baby that you dont even know and violated you. and then left you. i know i would not. so abortion is MURDER but its a good murder cause i would have an abortion if i got pergent cause i do sports and i cant drop out of sports just cause i have a f-ing baby in me. most people who are aggest are the people that are really looking for most abused kids, more homeless kids. and more kids whom use drugs.

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It's important for women to have choices...or, you know, for girls like me who aren't ready for a kid, to have a second chance.

Understand though, that there are those that feel that abortion is murder, and nothing less. Is it still that important if you consider that? Would those same situations justify murder?

Personally, at the very root of it, I'm morally against abortion. BUT. I have been in a very, very bad relationship in the past...I could have gotten pregnant, but I didn't. Luckily. Because, when you're afraid that you might be pregnant, when you might have messed up your life, it's nice to have another chance. It's important for women to have choices...or, you know, for girls like me who aren't ready for a kid, to have a second chance. I've never had an abortion, and I'm glad, because it's very emotionally-straining, but I think we'd all want to do whatever we can to fix our lives. And when you're scared for yourself, you'll do anything, trust me.

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Originally posted by clpo13:
Don't tell me you're one of those utilitarian bioethicists, Dr.S...

Er, typically those guys are very pro-abortion ranging even into infanticide a la Peter Singer. Or am I thinking of the wrong thing?

Don't tell me you're one of those utilitarian bioethicists, Dr.S...

no...it's...contagious...run...all...of...you...RUN

<schwartzenegger accent>Ja it is a huuman beeing and if you terminate zem ah will terminate you!

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Because what is right or wrong is an issue of personal belief and thus, has no place in science.

Not entirely true Celtic. There's a well established body of ethics that goes along with the biological and medical sciences. Although Josef Mengele would probably disagree.

Personally as you guys probably know, I'm generally opposed to abortion because I claim a moral equivilancy between a zygote and a full adult upon secular grounds.

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Abortion is no more murder than extracting a tumor.

I HIGHLY dissagree with this statement. There are clear biological differences between a zygote/fetus and a tumor.

Must...resist...urge....ARRRGG
<schwartzenegger accent>It's not a toomor!

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u wouldnt put ur newborn in a bg in an alley and cut it up would u?

Maybe you wouldn't.

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And then they say rthat if u kill it soon enough that it isnt really a baby. well, u no wat, thats a load of bull. As soon as it is concieved a baby begins to form.

Most abortions are performed before the fetus has developed any organs. It's basically a blob of cells. Unthinking, unfeeling.

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u wouldnt put ur newborn in a bg in an alley and cut it up would u? y would u ever do that while it is still in side of you?

A FETUS IN ITS EARLY STAGES CANNOT FEEL ANYTHING! A baby, or a fetus in its later stages, can feel pain. A baby can expierience emotion. Killing a living, feeling, thinking baby is murder. Aborting a blob of cells which is unaware that it exisists is not.

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abortion is murder and i cnt believe that all those big hot shopt scientists can't seem to figure that out!!!!

Abortion is no more murder than extracting a tumor.

Also, next time you post, try to use proper spelling. Decoding your netspeak and frequent typos makes my brain hurt.

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really dont get how anyone can have an abortion

It's simple. Go to an abortion clinic. Or you can go anorexic as you're pregnant and hope you'll have a miscarriage.

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And then they say rthat if u kill it soon enough that it isnt really a baby.

It's a useless blob of cells, kinda like tumors.

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concieved a baby begins to form.

Being pregnant isn't your only problem if you haven't conceived a baby and you're human.

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u wouldnt put ur newborn in a bg in an alley and cut it up would u?

What the hell? That's entirely different. You have nine months to choose what the hell to do with it. If in nine months, you still don't know, you need psychiatric help.

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abortion is murder and i cnt believe that all those big hot shopt scientists can't seem to figure that out!!!!

Because what is right or wrong is an issue of personal belief and thus, has no place in science.

Vets, you know I did this out of sheer amusement.