im all for abortion...but i just want to state a fact about cannables...cannables fight with oposing 'tribes' or whatever...they kill them to protect them selves (and vice versa) but the point is, they only eat the ppl who they killed which were the ones that were trying to kill them...make any sense?
quote:Why do people have abortions? Because those babies are considered, like the victims of the Holocaust, worthless.
I really doubt anyone goes around having abortions for fun. A lot of women feel guilty afterwards. Some of them want to have the babies, but know they can't- psyically maybe, or maybe they don't have money- the reason doesn't really matter. Don't classify all women who have abortions as the same.
quote:You don’t want a child to feel unwanted or unloved, so you’d rather they be killed? Have you ever felt unwanted or unloved?... So are you saying that at that point you should have been killed so that you wouldn’t feel that way?
your argument here is that aborting an unwanted child is unjust because everyone feels unwanted at one point in their life and we don't kill people for feeling that way. my response is that your logic is faulty because many of us do not equate an embryo or fetus with an adult. i was illustrating how differently i see the 2 by responding that i wasn't in my mother's uterus at the time i was feeling "unwanted and unloved."
in fact, i have no recollection of being in the uterus, so i have a hard time buying all of your extrapolations from people's emotions to embryo's "emotions." i do not even recognize the hypothetical situation of a drowning person as fully relevant to this topic: i do not grant you the assumption that the 2 are the same.
quote: Dante: There is a large difference between letting a burglar in and “housing” an innocent baby.
The burglar hasn't done anything yet. We could just as well call this an "innocent person", does it make it right that they're in your house?
quote: A criminal has the intent to harm! They are there not to grow, but to commit a crime and to harm the homeowner. Yes, sometimes babies can harm the mother while in the womb…but that is another argument at another time.
No, it's an argument for here and now. It's obviously linked heavily. If your argument rests on harm then we should look at it thoroughly. A fetus (not a baby, use medically correct words, not emotional grabs) and the pregnancy does indeed harm the mother, physically and emotionally. Between morning sickness, the inability to continue functioning like you did previously, the need to eat and buy more, mood swings, stomach pains, regular strain and fatigue due to carrying around al the additional weight, the exreme pain of birth, etc. They can cost you more and harm you more than any potential burglar or other ciminal. It's a basic result of pregnancy.
quote: Once again…to the drowning person metaphor… can you honestly tell me that you could look down at a drowning person a foot away from you, and not feel morally obligated to help them? Would you not feel bad if you watched that person die and did nothing?
Feeling and fact are two separate things. I would likely help them. Given that I swim well and have a semi-developed sense of compassion I would help out. But a crippled person should not feel morally obligated, a poor or weak swimmer won't feel as obligated, and someone a mile away won't feel as obligated either. You can't draw a line. You can't define what makes a moral obligation. You can't be morally obligated based on emotions or simple proximity to a problem. It's like the difference between public opinion and law. Mob mentalities are fickle, laws aren't supposed to respond to whimsy and outrage. Laws are supposed to be objective determiations of rightness and order. (I don't beleive in laws, ans I encourage everyone else to question them as well, but in theory this is how it works.) It's why we don't let the fathers of muder victims or rape victims make decsions on the lives of the accused, feelings are just that. Momentary impulses or instinct that guide actions and responses, they aren't concrete, rational, or even resonable usually. It's as subjective as food preference.
If you would look closer at the my post and the post I was replying to, you would see that the "unloved" child I was referring to was the adopted child that felt unloved because he was unwanted by his original mother. There was no mention of whether or not the aborted child was or was not loved, as I believe the answer is obvious. Also, like I've stated before, when you believe life begins is normally the deciding factor that determines if you agree with abortion or not.
i have. the big difference was that i wasn't in my mother's uterus at the time.
as long as you equate a zygote/embryo/fetus (which you seem to prefer to call a child) with a person already born, then, yes, i understand how you oppose abortion. however, i don't equate any of the 3 stages with a person already born. hence, i support a woman's right to choose what to do to her body because i view a zygote/embryo/fetus as part of her body and not a soulful, separate entity.
if a zygote/embryo has a soul, then heaven is filled with them because millions of "potential" pregnancies perish during the first 5 weeks of pregnancy every year due to natural abortion.
Bubbly: The mother has the responsibility of caring for that child when it is growing. She does not have the responsibility of choosing if she wants it to die or not. If “she cannot properly take care of a child” then adoption is the answer, not murder! Maybe that child will be a “consequence” to the mother, but they will be a blessing and reward to those that adopt the child. I don’t believe that those that receive abortions should be punished. You don’t want a child to feel unwanted or unloved, so you’d rather they be killed? Have you ever felt unwanted or unloved? I’m sure you have, just about everybody does at some point. So are you saying that at that point you should have been killed so that you wouldn’t feel that way?
Dante: There is a large difference between letting a burglar in and “housing” an innocent baby. A criminal has the intent to harm! They are there not to grow, but to commit a crime and to harm the homeowner. Yes, sometimes babies can harm the mother while in the womb…but that is another argument at another time. Once again…to the drowning person metaphor… can you honestly tell me that you could look down at a drowning person a foot away from you, and not feel morally obligated to help them? Would you not feel bad if you watched that person die and did nothing?
Windancer: First of all, a baby is not an egg. An egg is what is fertilized by sperm…once this happens (aka conception) it is then a zygote, which is then an embryo. The difference between killing animals and killing humans is that there is a soul…and for babies there is great potential. But that is a whole other discussion which might be better discussed in a different forum on animal rights. No, we do not just want an excuse to argue. We want the increase of countless victims created by abortion to cease.
"Your killing a living, kicking, feeling baby that's growing!"
an egg, you're disposing of an egg, that, if given a chance will be kicking & breathing but not this stage. And I asked ob/gyn, she told me the baby has no heartbeat for the 1st 12 weeks, becuz there's no heart! its a cell, an egg. If this is wrong, is it wrong to take eggs from hens & EAT them? to cannibal person: eating other persons as opposed to eating animals >>> what's the difference??? they live they breathe they feel & yet they die everyday. you people just want an excuse to argue about something!
I don't think abortion is the best, in my opinion I wished aborting a child was out lawed. And i know, to all the girls out there who are young and are to young to have a baby, but that's killing a living, breathing child-MURDER! It's funny, the government can send those to jail who murder someone, but abortion is the same thing! Your killing a living, kicking, feeling baby that's growing! But I rember I use to say, what if I was young and I got pregnant, I know I wouldn't be able to keep the baby-but I also would't get the baby aborted either. The baby didn't choose to come to this world, and a baby certainly didn't choose to be killed either! SO I say Aborition is wrong (that's just my opion.)
"If a room is stuffy, and I therefore open a window to air it, and a burglar comes in, it would be absurd to say 'Ah, now he can stay, she's given him a right to the use of her house ... having voluntarily done what enabled him to get in, in full knowledge that there are such things as burglars and criminals lurking about.' It would be still more absurd to say this if I had bars installed outside my windows, precisely to prevent criminals from getting in, and still one got in do to a defect in the bars"
It does not matter whether pregnancy takes one hour, or a decade. Just as it doesn't matter whether the drowning person is a mile away and weighs 200 lbs more than you can carry, or is a waif and is a few feet from you. There is no clear line to be drawn and no moral obligation to the use of some other person.
I believe that a woman has the right to decide to have an abortion. If the fetus is her "responsibility" then she has the right to make the decision that she can have an abortion. It's a personal choice, and a difficult one at that. The mother decides that she cannot properly take care of a child and therefore abortion is the legitimate choice for her. I think it is terribly wrong when people say that she must face the consequences and have this baby. That is very unfair to a child. Who wants to live knowing that they're someone's punishment or consequence? And to those who still think these women who have abortions should be punished, I think the emotional distress that comes with having an abortion is punishment enough. Many people point to adoption as an alternative to abortion. I'm not saying I disapprove of adoption, but it is such a complicated process to adopt a child in the United States. There is a mountain of red tape and the government basically makes adoption very difficult. Also, with the success of fertility drugs and invitro fertilization many couples will want to have their own children. I think that this will make adoption rates go down. Children do not deserve to feel unwanted or unloved, and that is why I approve of abortion.
I don't agree with abortion, I think that if you think you are responisble enough to have sex then you should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences. Baby's are alive before they are born, you should not take it's life. If you feel you are not ready, or do not want the baby, I believe that adoption is a good choice. There are many place you can give it up for adoption.
You’re right…11 million died in the Holocaust, not 6. Last night when I posted it, I went back and read my post and thought that 6 seemed too small…then I went back and read my post, and realized that 6 was just referring to jews alone. Thanks for the correction! Now, abortion has killed more than 3 times as many…still publicly and under the government’s eye.
quote: they were killed because htey were considered worthless
Why do people have abortions? Because those babies are considered, like the victims of the Holocaust, worthless.
You’re also right about not all cannibals being murderers. In my “rough draft” of my post I said “Of course not...because cannibalism is most likely murder.” I thought that this was needless, however. So I’m sorry for not being explicit…but it seems like you are just nitpicking. And whether the murder is caused by an illness or not is insignificant…its still murder. Actually…murder while not being mentally ill is worse under law…so your argument is actually serving my view better than it does yours. Yes…abortion is a choice…but so is killing a fully-grown adult. Murder is a choice.
I guess what makes us different as far as believing that the mother should keep it is that I believe that baby is the mother’s responsibility. Here’s the thing…the woman got herself pregnant. She chose to have sex, most likely being unmarried, and now she has to face the consequences of her actions. She now has the responsibility of giving birth to that child.
As far as your “drowning person” example: First of all, I think that somebody is morally obligated to pull that person up! How can somebody sit idly by while somebody is about to die? But they legally obligated? No.
How could a mother agree to having such barbaric procedures performed? Because when you get down to it, that mother is selfish.
quote:Let's say I'm a cannibal. I like to eat people. I believe that it is okay to eat others. Is this right? Is this right for me?
Of course not...because cannibalism is murder... which is wrong because it hurts somebody else. Just because somebody believes that something is right doesn't mean that it is...even for just that one person.
You're right on one thing, though. The deciding factor on somebody's beliefs regarding abortion is when they believe life begins. If life begins at birth...then abortion is okay. If life begins at conception...then abortion is murder carried out by doctors.
By the way, I think the original post called abortion a Holocaust because of the overwhelming number of murders it has brought about. Since 1973, there have been about 42,000,000 abortions in the U.S. alone. (Only about 7% which have been for medical reasons...so we'll say about 39,000,000 needless deaths) The holocaust caused about 6 million jews to be murdered. Abortion has killed more than 6 times the number killed in the holocaust...publicly and with the government's permission
Not all canibals or necrophiles murder. Some just go to graveyards and dig up people. And besides, pyscholigists count both as illnesses. Having an abortion isn't. It's a choice.
As for abortion/holocaust- 11 million people were killed, not just jews. These people were already alive, and they were killed because htey were considered worthless. I don't believe there's women who go around getting pregnant and having abortions for the fun of it.
quote: You're right on one thing, though. The deciding factor on somebody's beliefs regarding abortion is when they believe life begins. If life begins at birth...then abortion is okay. If life begins at conception...then abortion is murder carried out by doctors.
Not true, even if you grant personhood (different from life; an acorn is "alive" but not a "person") no one has a right to another persons body. If your life depends on that person they aren't morally obligated to help you or save you or prolong your life in anyway. We can say they "should" because, for example, if you were standing next to a person who was drowning it wouldn't be very hard for you to pul them up. However, that in no way means you are morally obligated to help them, person or not. Sure, personhood is a strong prima facie place to start when deciding whether it's murder, but not saving someone, not actively prolonging their life when it impinges on yours, is not murder, it'd be nice if you saved them, but it's not wrong not to.
quote: I firmly believe that what you believe is right-- for you. I will not trample someone else's beliefs any sooner than I'll let them trample my own.
Let's say I'm a cannibal. I like to eat people. I believe that it is okay to eat others. Is this right? Is this right for me?
Of course not...because cannibalism is murder... which is wrong because it hurts somebody else. Just because somebody believes that something is right doesn't mean that it is...even for just that one person.
You're right on one thing, though. The deciding factor on somebody's beliefs regarding abortion is when they believe life begins. If life begins at birth...then abortion is okay. If life begins at conception...then abortion is murder carried out by doctors.
By the way, I think the original post called abortion a Holocaust because of the overwhelming number of murders it has brought about. Since 1973, there have been about 42,000,000 abortions in the U.S. alone. (Only about 7% which have been for medical reasons...so we'll say about 39,000,000 needless deaths) The holocaust caused about 6 million jews to be murdered. Abortion has killed more than 6 times the number killed in the holocaust...publicly and with the government's permission.
I'm back. I like to post and then not look for awhile, so that there's more to read when i get back and possibly something enlightening. It occured to me this time that the orginial post itself hasn't been referred to in a while. "Abortion is the holocaust of our time." The holocaust of our time. Ok. Here I go. The holocaust was agaist a certain group of people. Abortion isn't. Not all women are having abortions, in fact, at this point, after all these posts, it should be extremely clear that there are so many people who are against it that abortion isn't really mass murder. Mass murder also seems like it should have a majority deciding that a minority is bad and should be gotten rid of... That really isn't the case. And I just want to point out again that a person who is pro-choice isn't necessarily going to run around convincing women to have abortions. No way, NO WAY would I ever want that to be the solution, but I think there are times when for the woman, it is. So there are a lot more people out there who wouldn't actually have an abortion, EVER, but don't want to infringe on another woman's rights, and that's cool with me. Also... I think one of the other problems here is whether a person believes that life begins at conception or at birth. Personally, I believe it begins at birth. I can't rationalize it for you all, it's just one of those beliefs that I have. For people who believe that life begins at conception, yes, I agree with you, for you, abortion is murder. And I can see where you're coming from completely. But for me, I believe it begins at birth. I don't think this is one of those things that can just be resolved, I think this is one of those things where we will never really find out who is right. And that's ok. That is also why I think that abortion shouldn't be made illegal, because that would be like telling at least some group of people that their beliefs are wrong, and I have problems with that. I firmly believe that what you believe is right-- for you. I will not trample someone else's beliefs any sooner than I'll let them trample my own. So please, don't. I know there are a lot of you who hate me for being pro-choice and I'm sorry, it just seems right to me. I understand that being pro-life is right for you. Please, please, please-- try to understand where the rest of us are coming from. You can still think we're wrong. But please at least give it some thought.
I'm not tryin to degrade anyone who is against abortion. I just have my own opinions. I believe that it is a decision to be made by the individual who is debating whether to have an abortion or not. Everyone can sit here and state "i would never have an abortion", but one can never say what they would do if they were in that situation. Once again... people make mistakes and have to learn from the mistakes they have made. I have been worried that i was pregnant before and the topic came up between my boyfriend and I. I know in my heart that if at this age i was capable of taking care of the baby, i would not have an abortion. I dont believe that it is fair for me to go out and have sex get pregnant and then, in order to not take responsiblity, have an abortion. BUT STUFF HAPPENS! I used to say that i would never have an abortion... but until i was placed into that position of choice, did i realize the effects that pregnancy would have on my life. Basically, what i'm tryin to say is that each person has to lead his or her own life...and from every mistake we grow... i'll say it again, over and over... the bible says "he who is without sin may cast the first stone"..
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