****As a Muslim I believe--- (1) that all people will be rewarded according to not only their deeds but also their intentions (so if you intend to do good and serve God, and you do it in the only way you know how then…. you get the goods). (2) That 'true' Christians, Jews and anyone else who serves God with all their heart, in all sincerity are in fact actually Muslim---which means ‘one who surrenders his will to the will of god’---- and will have their reward in paradise. ****

Now that being said...I honestly don't understand how anyone could proclaim to believe in a religion that’s validity is placed on a Holy Book of which there ARE NO ORIGINAL COPIES (the books were compiled after the times of prophets Jesus and Moses) and all of the oldest copies (which are translations) are in a language that THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ! All your reading (and this is a problem with Christians, Jews and Muslims who don’t know the original language of their text) is someone else’s INTERPRETATION! They may call it a translation, but trust me the implications and depth of most words cannot be transferred across language...especially the allegorical and metaphorical language that is found in most scripture. Take for example the Arabic word Sabir it is commonly translated as ‘patience’ in most translations of the Quran but it actually implies much more…Sabir means to be patient-but not the passive patience of English—it is an active thing, it means to work, struggle, and to be consistent while being patient for what you want to happen and to become reality…all these things and more are implied meanings in the Arabic word. The most popular version—translation—in actuality just an INTERPREATION-- of the bible is the King James…. How many Christians ever explore beyond the opinions of this one interpreter!!!(I think he actual organized a group of scholars—but still the point remains!!)…Or do they think him flawless…No they don’t think that, because no one and nothing is flawless but god (Christians Jews, and Muslims all agree on that)…and if your reading something that is not the direct word of god (because it is filtered through the language and understanding of men)…umm then it must be………………flawed!
In addition, your understanding of your religion must be…………..flawed!
Moreover, your faith must be.………
………..Ultimately flawed.

Note*(I myself am an African American Muslims, so Arabic (the language of the Quran) is not my first language and I am not even currently fluent in it or anything…but I am an active student of the language and my vocabulary and understanding of it grow everyday…. I would suggest that all people, of all religions study the language of their respective religion, and not be satisfied with the flawed interpretations of anyone!)


Phew sorry for the lengthy post!!!

When it comes to religion we tend to become so defensive. I get into religious debates all of the time with hardcore believers. I neither say God exists nor do I say that he doesn’t. It is not my place to tell anyone that they are wrong. I believe that religion is based on faith. Douglas Adams put it best in his explanation of the babble fish (For all of you Hitchhiker fans our there):

God: I refuse to prove I exist, for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.

We all need something to believe in. Whither its the God, Jesus, or the believing in one's self. It’s all just in our nature. So try not to snap rudely and people and their personal beliefs.


~Alex~

I think someone mentioned this somewhere on the site, but...

"Everyone believes in the same concept of God, they just take different paths to find it."

That pretty much sums up what I would have said.

What about atheists who do their best to serve others and do good? What do you believe happens to them? Because, if God does indeed exist, isn't that what he wants? So, they are serving God, but not under that name or image.

And not all Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell, so don't make it sound like that please. Its an insult to the more accepting branches.

I am, like you, a Christian. I know where you’re coming from…and I agree with some of what you say, but I need to comment on your approach.

If you’re gonna try to talk to somebody about their beliefs and their opinion…take the time to hear them out. This does not include “skimming.”

If you’re gonna tell somebody that they need to get their facts straight before stating their opinion…please do the same. Do me a favor and research the Muslim religion a bit…look for entirely objective ones on a search engine or to get a Christian’s perspective there are some good articles at www.probe.org.

Look in some of the posts before yours that address ATLMuslim’s belief that true Christians are Muslims. Basically, just know that we are using different definitions. When we think of a Muslim we think of Muhammad. When Muslims think of a Muslim they think of serving God full-heartedly. Based on their general definition, we are Muslim…but we do not consider ourselves Muslim based on our definition.

It is my understanding that Muslims worship the same God as us…just like the Jewish and Mormon. Islam branched off of Judaism. (Please correct me if I’m wrong here, guys.) However, they have gotten off track in many of their beliefs, and are not Christians as they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

quote:

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your quran cannot compare to the bible. i think.

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Please…be sure about something before you post it. If you’re not sure, just do a bit of research and get back to the topic. When you’re so obviously unsure of yourself, you just undermine your entire post.

I agree with your belief that a true Christian serves and loves God. I know where you’re coming from…but please be a bit more tactful and careful when you post.

i am a christian and i believe in the bible and Jesus. So i didn't take the time to read what you wrote but it was a lot. i just skimmed threw it and basically all you were saying was how you are a muslim and how you are against christians . not every christian said that they were going to like you. and you say that true christians are muslim that is just a lie because obivously you don't know the meaning of a true christian . so let me tell you a true christian loves and serves God (our God who gave his son Jesus) now i don't know what god muslims serve but it isn't the one who gave is son. your quran you say as if it is similar to our bible . it is not your quran cannot compare to the bible. i think. i do not know much about muslim religon and i wont say anything bad about them because i dont know all my facts . and get your facts straight before you post your opioin.

Why does anyone have to defend their beliefs? It's no one's business but their own...

Yeah... I guess it's not worth getting upset over. Sorry. But my "sorry" isn't extended to ATLmuslim. And by the way You are still wrong.

First, I apologize for the combative topic "Christians base their faith on...Nothing!"...Uniq1 I would have taken it as an assault to! And I guess my ‘inspiration’ was hope for IMPASSIONED responses like that...However it was insulting (and that wasn’t my intention) and I apologize

---- My first post said several things----These are my final responses on this seemingly futile subject----I will break it up into three sections (1) INTENTIONS, (2) A MUSLIM, and (3) THE VALIDITY OF THE BIBLE

INTENTIONS
1)"****As a Muslim I believe--- (1) that all people will be rewarded according to not only their deeds but also their intentions (so if you intend to do good and serve God, and you do it in the only way you know how then…. you get the goods).

I think (I think) this is one of the fundamentally differences between Christianity and Islam. U all believe that in order to get to paradise you must "have Jesus in your heart"

“..... If you don't have Jesus in your heart then you aren't going to Heaven"--JoBet
"Jo, I totally know where you're coming from."--JoeyDauben in responses to that comment and other comments made in JoBets post.

Muslims disagree. A life is judged on action, intention and ones devotion to serving God...I know this sister in my community-she organized a soup kitchen that feeds 100's of homeless every weekend, she volunteers at the hospital with terminally ill children, she volunteers at a foster home and in-fact she’s adopted like 3 children...she’s like this beautiful person who has devoted her life to helping people. However, she's a Muslim.... will she be condemned to hell by your beliefs? Would all her sacrifice be for nothing because she didn't have Jesus IN HER HEART??!! Don’t answer! In Islam Mother Teresa will be rewarded for al the good she's done!

A MUSLIM

(2) That 'true' Christians, Jews and anyone else who serves God with all their heart, in all sincerity are in fact actually Muslim---which means ‘one who surrenders his will to the will of god’---- and will have their reward in paradise. ****"

This was however a literal usage and application of the word.... I see were your coming from JoeyDauben in that you associate it only with the traditions attached to it...that’s a completely valid view <I'm not being sarcastic at all--seriously>.I was simply trying to show how it is seen by Muslims and it is not something we need argue about cuz i don't think we were talking about the same thing anyway.

THE VALIDITY OF THE BIBLE

3)
FACT 1*there are no originals left
FACT 2*All remaining copies are translations and not even in the original language of Jesus or the authors
FACT 3* There is no way to check the authenticity of the current incarnation of the Bible because there are no originals and the closest ones to it (those in Hebrew& Latin) are just translations from older dialects spoken during the times immediately following Jesus (Aramaic).
FACT $* So all that’s left are translations—filled with opinionated interpretations of European ‘scholars’ made thousands of years ago.
If your comfortable with that then fine….if not (I wouldn’t be)… then look else were

Ahh this was the most controversial part of the post... My ‘attacks’ on the validity of the Bible and my (incorrect) assumption that it was what Christians base their faith on...I stand corrected—most of you said you base your faith on God (or/and Jesus). That’s fine I’m not going to debate it (how could I)...But I will pose this rhetorical question—How did you come to know of God (or/and Jesus) and his teaching if not through the stories of the Bible? And if the Validity of the Bible is in question , then isn’t then validity of the Faith Which you place in God—but understand through the bible—also in question? Its rhetorical, anyway I can see how you can come to know God through other mediums and I think that’s valid so no need to respond...just think.)

aight folks…fun chit chattin with ya…(no hard feelings I hope)….but I’m leavin this truly useless debate right here!

Time for a new topic…this is dead…

As –salaam mu-alai***
(Peace be upon you)
~~~~~~~~~~~ATLmuslim

Jo, I totally know where you're coming from.

But all you can do is present the facts, tell the truth, sound friendly and move on.

The rest is up to God and His Holy Spirit to move those people...

...and yeah, it was an attack on Christianity in my opinion, but hey, what's new with that?

Always remember though: if you have something you truly believe in, DON'T back down, stay firm, and always, always be prepared to defend your beliefs - it's a hostile world out there.

*hugs Jo anyway* I'm just asking; is it worth getting angry over, since nothing anyone can say or do can force the change of another's perceptions?

Okay... I think people are just pulling crap out of their butt just to say something to try to defend themselves. First of all muslims and christians have nothing to do with each other. I know that you don't get to Heaven by doing good deeds... you get to Heaven because of Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. Muslims and Christians are NOTHING a like. Muslims may believe in "God." Their "God". The muslim God and the Christian God is not the same God even though some people seem to think so. Second of all I didn't know this was a dispute that muslims are better than everybody else. I thought this was an attack on Christians.

quote:

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Most Christians base their faith on...NOTHING!

---

So, again, I would like to point out that Christians do not base their faith on the Holy Word but in Jesus Christ. And by the way.... christians, jews, and whoever else ... are not muslims. Christians are Christians and Jews are Jews and Muslims are Muslims.

And right now... I'm upset and "hugs all around" isn't such a good idea. This is reality. Right here. Reality isn't sugar coating everything and saying, "What's good for you is good for you and what's good for me is good for me. And because I don't want to ruffle anybodies feathers I'm going to sit back and ignore the fact that what I believe says that if you don't have Jesus in your heart then you aren't going to Heaven." I mean, "Hey!!!!!! It's okay! I'm going to Heaven.... you're going to Hell but atleast we're huggin' each other. We're all smiling. As long as I hug you and think that everybody has their own way of doing things I won't need to worry about you. I am so glad that you are handling this so well. Just remember it's not the heat but the humidity that gets ya!"

I don't refute the fact both religious faiths have many of the same moral teachings, characters, events, etc.

What I meant, before it was taken out of context, was that Muslims and Christians aren't the "same" religion-wise, ATL.

"...'true' Christians, Jews and anyone else who serves God with all their heart, in all sincerity are in fact actually Muslim."

This is your quote ATL.

"To classify Christians as Muslims is not only an uneducated statement, but it's a complete factual error."

This is my quote - which was taken out of its original meaning when you said:

"You have a great deal of confidence in your assertion for someone who obviously has not had sufficient ‘education’ to know what the word Muslim means!"

I wasn't referring to the "meaning" of the word Islam.

"...Islam means simply: submission (the implied meaning is submission to the will of Allah( which is just the Arabic word for God--yes Arab Christians use it also!!) and a Muslim *drum roll* is…one who submits… submits his will to the will of God..."

Again, I wasn't referring to the "meaning." You said in "...all sincerity are in fact actually Muslim."

"...so in a way Joey your right cuz many Christians aren’t Muslim."

You should have said this to begin with.

"...they [Christians] don’t submit their will, their life, and their desires to the will of god…the only thing they submit to is their own ego & whim."

Yeah, you're the one to talk for a religion you closely relate yourself to.


At first I was very critical of other religions; don't get me wrong, I still have the mindset that my faith is the One, but I'm not going to do like I did and actually pick apart someone else's religion - which, you, ATL, have done very well.

If Muslims really want to practice tolerance, just accept other viewpoints without name-calling and childish pander.

AvengerOfGod:

I don't believe they're telling you're a Muslim by religion, I believe they're telling you that by the Mulsim beliefs the word 'Muslim' means submiting your will to the will of God, which can mean any god. So, actually I could be considered a 'Muslim' for believing in Gaia, Just as Christians could be called 'Muslim' for believing solely in the Christian God. It's not about what religion you believe in, but the fact that you believe in your religion whole-heartedly.

~Becca

were do you find the right to tell me what i believe in? i am not a muslim, period. the standards and rules that we fallow are somewhat the same, but still not the same. two fraternal twins can look alike, but that does not make them identical. i really do not understand how and why you people can not accept the fact that christians, and muslims, are not the same religion.

I think I understand what you're saying. The ideals of most religions are generally positive things, yes. The unfortunate thing is, many of them get so distorted in the "I'm right and you're stupid" (nice wording there, BTW) conflict, we end up with holy wars...

Many of the interpretations are all still the same. Maybe not word for word, but still same in meaning. And so what if they are really old? Still good.

i agree with tricky. hugs. all around. on the house.

there is no debate when it comes to religion...... the "i'm right and your stupid" argument can't really be refuted.

o.k. you win! hope you feel better about yourself. back to reality, we must live with one another.

if the bladers and the skaters don't get along in the skate park; NOONE SKATES. (cause they kill each other and the roaches and bears take over the park. not good.)

By definition, any faith has no basis beyond "I say so," or, if you're a bit more open-minded, "I think so," which is of course, no basis at all. So stop flaming each other, it's not nice. *hugs everybody*

I just responded to your reply under the "Global Community" forum...sorry it took me awhile!