Thank you to everyone who mentioned that the Bible is not what our trust and faith is based on…it is in God. I think that this is what this topic all comes down to…and where atlmuslim’s argument falls apart.

JoBet---I agree with everything you said. Thank you!

Uniq1---take a deep breath…Christians will have their faith attacked down to the day Christ returns. We can do nothing about that except learn how to respond…with patience, wisdom, and trust in God. I know that it is very easy to be offended by the inability of nonbelievers to understand some things…but take everything with a grain of salt. You said that you base your faith on the Bible and every other holy book you’ve read. Please explain… what other books? Also, you said that the KJV is divinely inspired. I know that this is kinda nitpicky of me, but it is the originals that were divinely inspired and perfect…the copies through the ages do have various insignificant flaws such as spelling errors.

Fluteangel---I totally agree with you about the Bible being a guide for the Christian life, however I really don’t think that there is much of a need for updated laws. (Remember that the majority of the old testament laws were done away with when Jesus gave a new law.) Exactly which laws are you referring to?

I'm sorry that you feel this way about Christians but you cannot simply base all of your assumptions about God on one total thing of the written word of the Quran. I believe that there is something beyond the word of the Bible that inspires grace in every one of us. So yes we should use the "Word of God" as a guideline but not as the whole picture of God. That was written many many many years ago and while some things in the Bible or Quran pertain to our culture now, most of the laws in those books need to be updated. I also think that if you can say that we base our faith on nothing then I can say that you base your faith on nothing. I don't see the logic, in telling a whole group of people that their views are wrong without having concrete evidence to back it up. And if you say that your concrete evidence is the Quran, you need more proof than that because SOMEONE had to write the Quran, just like SOMEONE translated the Bible, even if it was inspired by God. And human error can come into play at all times.

what inspired you to juts come out and attack the Christian faith. Out the blue
I deeply resent U saying that christians base their faith on nothing
I for one base my faith, not only on the kings James version of the Holy Bible (which by the way, was devinly inspired, and not merely just an interprtation) But on every holy book I read. Everything
I base my faith on the knowledge I have.
Don't just attack my faith because U have nothing better 2 do w/ myself

okay... So, somebody here thinks that Christians base their beliefs on nothing. I beg to differ. First of all the Holy Bible is not incorrect. It is perfect. It has no errors and neither does the interpratations. A real Christian does not base their belief on the Holy Book they base it on Christ. The Bible did not save anybody. I'll tell you what did save millions of people though. Christ saved millions of people. Jesus Christ came down to Earth from his thrown in Heaven and became an earthly man, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for many reasons -which were all for you-, and then He came back from the grave on the third day and now He is waiting for you. I know He lives because He lives in me. He moves in me and He cares for me. You can not tell me that after everything in my life that has gone on that there is not a God and that I do not base my faith on Him and in Him. Yes, I am a Christian and I am very proud of it. If you have never felt God then you can not say diddly squat about Christians and what they base their faith on. And about the Holy Word.... just shut your mouth because God wrote the book.

First I would like to say that personally, I choose to not believe in organized religion based on things I have been taught and my own conception of what religion should be. But I went to a Catholic high school for four years where we had a mass about once a week and three relgion classes per week where we studied not only the Catholic religion, but Muslim, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, ect.
You say that Christians base their beliefs on nothing but a book, here is my arguement. Yes it is just a book, there are millions of books all over the world written about anything and everything, in many different laungauges, about different people, fiction, non fiction, book about EVERYTHING, so why is this one so important? For one, the fact that there is no original text is in favor of this because it shows how ancient this specific book is. It HAD to come from somwhere right? Someone (or many "someones") HAD to write it. Of course, there is always teh possibility that it is entirely fiction, or even just a bunch of opinions or exagerations. But the ideas had to come from somwhere. Lets say that the entire Bible is fiction, one man sat down and decided to write a story about a boy named Jesus. But where did the idea come from? Every idea no matter how inane and crazy it may sound HAD to come from somewhere. Take the mermais for example, want to know where the idea came from? Fishman saw manatees and decided that they looked like people except with tales, and the idea of a mermaid grew from there. So even if the actually story in the Bible, the way it is written and the way that people believe it today is entirly false, the idea of it all came from some sort of truth.
By saying that Christians have based their faith on nothing is not entirely accurate. The Bible IS something, someone DID write it. The idea of everything in there IS something. If it were nothing, then the entire religion would have never started. Beliefs are based on an idea, if it were *nothing*, then it never exisited to begin with and we would NEVER have ended up where we are today.

....in response to your first post... I’m not trying to get every Christian (or any for that matter) to go around saying their Muslim. I’m just trying to get you all to understand what Muslims view “True” Christians and Jews as. 1400 yrs ago The prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) sent the first ‘Muslims’ to seek refuge in the African Christian Kingdom of Abyssinia. When they arrived they han an audience with the king who inquired as to their beliefs—the Christian king (his name escapes me at the moment) after asking many other questions and agreeing completely asked ‘how do muslim’s view Christ?’ After the answer the King, with the narrow end of his staff, drew a line in the sand floor and said the difference between Islam and Christianity is as thin as that line—the Muslims were welcomed in Abyssinia

"To classify Christians as Muslims is not only an uneducated statement, but it's a complete factual error."...

You have a great deal of confidence in your assertion for someone who obviously has not had sufficient ‘education’ to know what the word Muslim means! ...Islam means simply: submission (the implied meaning is submission to the will of Allah( which is just the Arabic word for God--yes Arab Christians use it also!!) and a Muslim *drum roll* is…one who submits… submits his will to the will of God…so in a way Joey your right cuz many Christians aren’t Muslim—they don’t submit their will, their life, and their desires to the will of god…the only thing they submit to is their own ego & whim. However there are others…

“Hence, a difference.”
“So please, continue to share your beliefs, but make informed statements.”
Thanks.”---back at ya

And on to your second post…. the question is---

“In your Holy Book, is there, or are there, verses stating that it is "okay" to kill a non-Muslim?”

The answer is a yes with many conditions---Here is a translation of some verses that talk about that (Although there just translations they are pretty clear I think)“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight with you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.” 2:190-“…But if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.” 2:193

Basically war is only permissible in self defense and under well defined limits. War can be undertaken only to restore peace and freedom for the worship of Allah (not to push the worship on others) In any case of war strict limits must not be transgressed: women, children, old and ill men should not be harmed, nor should the natural landscape like trees and crops be cut down—unless absolutely necessary for strategy—and in no instance what so ever can peace be withheld if the enemy comes to terms.


“You started this discussion forum stating that most Christians base their views on "nothing."…How would you know what we base our views on?”

Well it wasn’t your ‘view’ I was referring to but your faith…and I would hope you base your faith on the BIBLE (flawed as it is) if you say your Christian!!! Any way the original intent of my post was to say you can’t base you faith on translations and interpretations of scripture...and that being so Christians are in quite a predicament because that is all they have: translations-which are just interpretations-interpretations which are just the flawed opinions of the mostly anonymous human authors of the bible in its present form.

sorry, maybe i should have been a bit more clearer...im not 'against' religon...I just would never be in one unless i found the right one...i just dont like what all the religons i know do...in a sence that i dont read any 'holy' type books...believe ppl came back to live or walked on water or talked to a burning bush or any of that...how do i know im living my life the way i want??? cuz i usused to do what society told me...i went to church, tried to read the bible...and all that, gave in to society...i hated it...now i do things that make ME happy...and what eveyone believes i have no belief in it...im not condeming any religions, i just have not found one that interests me...im studieing paganism...that is at least remotly interesting to me...and of anything i believe alot of what pagans believe in...but i still just dont like religion and dont wanna do all the things religon requires...so basically im not against religon, i would never want to be in one...i just have no interest in it...oh, and dont listen to Joey to much, he seems to think everyone should be a christen, says so in his info

Well these boards are made for discussion, so here's my opinion. I am a Christian. But I have read books for Muslims ex. The Alchemist, (very good by the way). But to my religion and beliefs the fact that I place my faith on "nothing" is exactly what makes me a christian. But you see it isn't nothing, it's something I can feel, see, taste, hear, and touch. You know it deeper than anything, it's right. God's love lasts. Believing is seeing. And finally, even if you could prove to me beyond a doubt that I am wrong and God doesn't exist, I'd still live the Christian life as best I could, because it spreads love and gives every person worth.

This exact same topic by the same person is under "The Global Community" forum entitled "Christians jews and muslims...what do you base your faith on?" I was gonna just copy and paste my post but that's not necessary. Just wanted to point that out to yall.

ATL, you might be able to help me here.

In your Holy Book, is there, or are there, verses stating that it is "okay" to kill a non-Muslim?

Now, I know what you're thinking; I'm reading too many news articles, etc.

Seriously, it's a to-the-point question.

Does it not state, in your Holy Book, that it is okay for Muslims to kill non-Muslims?


You started this discussion forum stating that most Christians base their views on "nothing."

How would you know what we base our views on?

I made mistakes by automatically condemning Muslims because I, too, had taken information previously given to me and then recycling it into my own view.

I'm trying to go back and actually look up the stuff on my own (when I get time) so as to not sound like I know everything.

Anyway...

ATL, thanks for sharing your views.

But Christians cannot sit back and not clarify misconceptions with our faiths.

Our God comes in three different forms: Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God; when He ascended into Heaven on the Third Day, His spirit remained.

To classify Christians as Muslims is not only an uneducated statement, but it's a complete factual error.

We view God as Jesus Christ, whereas Muslims do not.

I am not a Muslim. I am a Christian.


Hence, a difference.

So please, continue to share your beliefs, but make informed statements.

Thanks.

thanks for your understanding....I have a question though...why do u say your "agaisn't religion"? I see were youre coming from with the 'you have to live life how you think it should be lived' mentality and I agree to an extent...its just that are 'lives' are constantly bombarded with so much informaiton and subtle persuasion--we are conditioned to act and behave, to like and dislike, and even to think in certain ways by are parents, piers, and media...much of what we are is not by are design...so what makes you think your living life how you truly...primally...inanetly feel it should be lived?...Thats were I think relgion and 'GOD' in the traditional sense come in...to bring people back to their nature....

'all people are judged on intention and deed'

im against religion...but im not a athiest...i believe in god my own way...i dont go to church, i dont believe in the bible (or any other 'holy' writings) and i hardly ever pray...i think god just wants u to live your life the way u wanna live it as long as your making yourself happy and a better person...or the world...and thats it...so if these ppl wanna be extremely religious and base their life on a book then more power too them...i am not religous, but i do get what your saying...ppl are going to be pissed at u...but they are the ppl that cant handle different views then what they have...believe me i cant begin to tell u how many fights ive been in for my views ...i get your jist though