Anti-utopias/utopias are my favorite kind of books...I've read quite a few of them, also - Anthem by Ayn Rand, 1984 by George Orwell, The Giver by Lois Lowry. If you look in my profile, you'll see that "The Giver" is my favorite book, although I find the other two books fascinating. A few others I've heard of are Atlas Shrugged (I think thats one although I'm not sure), Faharinheit 451 (sp?), Brave New World, etc. If anyone would just like to come on this board and discuss the books' plots or the themes (danger of utopias, or any new form of government), feel free to post anything about them. I'll be checking back so that I can maybe join in the discussion.

God Bless, *~Collielvr~*

True, true.

Bex

"I wasn't making any kind of comment, positive or negative, on American gun laws. Save that for the gun threads. I was just stating a fact."

Okay, fair enough. I'm just saying that speaking as an American it looks pretty extreme to ban all guns just based on a few violent incidents.

"I still think it's something of a giant leap to compare with the extreme communist regime in George Orwell's 1984…"

I know it is. But all societies have elements of the one in the book in them to some extent. It's up to everyone to make sure that those elements are suppressed and don't take over the country.

"About the EU, I thought we were keeping ourselves remarkably separate so far, refusing to join the Euro and siding with America in the Iraq conflict… *shrugs* I'll just say I disagree and leave it at that. But thankyou for clarifying."

Yes, but I don't expect it to keep on much longer. Europe will keep on pressuring the UK to join it, and eventually your country will give in. Especially with the USA being as unpopular as it is right now.

"Sometimes it's like you're just spewing political jargon. I mean I'm well-informed, keep up with the news etc. but I can't follow what you're on about sometimes, and it can seem like you're just bluffing through a debate by using big complicated words! You do know what you're talking about, so could you dumb it down a bit for us mere mortals? "

Actually I try to most of the time. But since this is a board on Utopias/Dystopias I thought I could speak in more complicated way than I normally do.

"Yup, I know about communism and the dictatorial regimes that arise from it (favourite book: Wild Swans). Communism is treated with such horror, particularly in America (sometimes to the extent that it's kind of laughable), but like any political movement the core ideals behind it are not bad. Essentially: sharing everything, everybody equal, no class division etc. You wouldn't think from just that that so much oppression and misery could stem from it."

I'd have to disagree with you there. First off again Communism is the goal of Socialism and has never been implemented, mainly because it's humanly impossible to really get an Anarchist-type of society with no real authority or property. The reason there's so much oppression and misery from Socialism is mainly because of the idea of the "dictatorship of the proletariat," which every Leftist dictator uses as an excuse to kill or imprison people. But I'd also go as far as to say that any Socialist society is doomed to fail because simply put some people are more qualified or hardworking than others, and to assume everyone's equal or should be equal economically is just crazy.

I wasn't making any kind of comment, positive or negative, on American gun laws. Save that for the gun threads. I was just stating a fact.

I still think it's something of a giant leap to compare with the extreme communist regime in George Orwell's 1984… About the EU, I thought we were keeping ourselves remarkably seperate so far, refusing to join the Euro and siding with America in the Iraq conflict… *shrugs* I'll just say I disagree and leave it at that. But thankyou for clarifying. Sometimes it's like you're just spewing political jargon. I mean I'm well-informed, keep up with the news etc. but I can't follow what you're on about sometimes, and it can seem like you're just bluffing through a debate by using big complicated words! You do know what you're talking about, so could you dumb it down a bit for us mere mortals?

Yup, I know about communism and the dictatorial regimes that arise from it (favourite book: Wild Swans). Communism is treated with such horror, particularly in America (sometimes to the extent that it's kind of laughable), but like any political movement the core ideals behind it are not bad. Essentially: sharing everything, everybody equal, no class division etc. You wouldn't think from just that that so much oppression and misery could stem from it.

Bex

“Pfft. Britain is not heading into 1984 territory. I should know, I live here. We're not as capitalist as America, maybe, but we are no more socialist than the rest of Europe… In fact the labour government is more right-wing these days.”

Well, considering the leftists running France, Sweeden etc. that’s not really surprising. Labour by American standards is still way to the left of the Democrats or even the Greens. They’ve just moved a little more to the center, definitely not to the right.

”What do you mean by 'increasingly socialized'? We have an NHS (free healthcare) but that has been around since the 1940s. And our gun laws are nothing new. It's more that America is unusual in allowing guns than that other countries are restrictive.”

I mean that your economy is increasingly state controlled, has high taxes, etc. As for allowing guns: Come on, ever hear of the Bill of Rights, or a gun black market? Seriously, most Americans are not going to part with their right to self defense, especially when most likely prohibited guns will become the source of yet another major black market (just like with Drugs, Beer, Pornography etc.).

”Elitism? Eh? Explain. You mean division between the classes, or a ruling class? We're still a monarchy but the Royal family serves no purpose in ruling, we're as much of a democracy as America. But I'm sure you know that so I'm at a loss as to what you're referring to.”

I mean division between the classes, increasing corporate/special interest controls, and a general loss of influence in politics by the average person. The same thing is going on here, just look at the candidates for the presidency right now.

”I read 1984 and loved it. And felt very relieved it hasn't happened. Man, Justice, don't suggest things like that! You're giving me the heebie-jeebies *searches corners of room for telescreen*. You don't jump from democracy to communism just because you ban guns and have free healthcare, so if that's not what you mean then what is your point?”

What about all the cameras which your government has installed on the streets recently? How about the EU, which itself seems to be turning into a pseudo-super state in the sense that it increasingly purports to act for the whole of Europe without any real de-centralized local control? But then, I’m American and we’re generally about as much for “state’s rights” and letting individual communities make their own laws on certain issues. Also, to be fair Communism only refers to the end ideal result of Socialism. It’s never been implemented, only Soviet/Stalinist or Maoist Style Totalitarian “Communism” (which derives its name from the party). In a true communist, there are not elites after all, which could not be further from the nightmarish party hierarchy that exists real “Communist” dictatorships like North Korea, Cuba, the Former USSR, China, the Khmer Rouge’s Cambodia and others.

”Sheesh, if this country is going to be like 1984 in a few years I want to know what the evidence is so I can get out!”

Obviously it’s not going to turn into anything resembling 1984 within a few years. What I’m concerned about is that Britain is losing control of its own country in exchange for some globalist organization like the EU, enacting increasingly restrictive laws on personal property,

Pfft. Britain is not heading into 1984 territory. I should know, I live here. We're not as capitalist as America, maybe, but we are no more socialist than the rest of Europe… In fact the labour government is more right-wing these days.

What do you mean by 'increasingly socialized'? We have an NHS (free healthcare) but that has been around since the 1940s. And our gun laws are nothing new. It's more that America is unusual in allowing guns than that other countries are restrictive.

Elitism? Eh? Explain. You mean division between the classes, or a ruling class? We're still a monarchy but the Royal family serves no purpose in ruling, we're as much of a democracy as America. But I'm sure you know that so I'm at a loss as to what you're referring to.

I read 1984 and loved it. And felt very relieved it hasn't happened. Man, Justice, don't suggest things like that! You're giving me the heebie-jeebies *searches corners of room for telescreen*. You don't jump from democracy to communism just because you ban guns and have free healthcare, so if that's not what you mean then what is your point?

Sheesh, if this country is going to be like 1984 in a few years I want to know what the evidence is so I can get out!

Bex

I loved 1984. The whole idea of a Stalinist Britain was fascinating, and in some ways disturbingly plausible given some of the country's recent developments and tendencies (an increasingly socialized economy, continued elitism, banning guns etc.). The Handmaid's Tale I haven't read, though the idea of such an ecologically devastated fundamentalist society seems to be too left leaning and exaggerated for my tastes. Anthem has a potentially very interesting setting: A world where collectivism has engulfed the world and civilization is dying as a result. Ayn Rand though comes off as an anarcho-capitalist lunatic (as do a lot of her fans), so I'd be hesitant to pick up anything by her.

I dispised the Giver. The kid didn't even die in the end. I don't remember any tragic deaths. What kind of a book is that? If noboday dies, they can't reappear later and explain how they cheated death. That's just lame.

To steal gemini's phrase, "pssh!"

I love The Giver....I read it in 6th grade

N.E.1 like Harry Potter ?

lol, okay

No wonder I had such a hard time trying to figure her out(when I studied her for English) during my freshman year...

God Bless, *~Collielvr~*

yes, she reminds me of David Blaine without the pyrotechnics...almost cultish...but not quite pulling it off.

Ayn Rand? Really?

Yeah...I like The Giver the best. I had to read 1984 for my sophmore year, which I really liked, despite the fact that the book is downright depressing...but, oh well.

And, no, I've never Handmaid's Tale...but I should. Thanks Madpuffin.

God Bless, *~Collielvr~*

I agree they are interesting, but I believe you must take with a grain of salt. My personal favorite out of all the ones mentioned is 1984.
I saw the Giver and Fahrenheit 451 as intro books to this area. Also a classic one is the Arthurian tales but there are other messages in it.
Also be weary of Ayn Rand she is a nut case, who claims to be an expert in philosophy but she really knows very little about it and constantly gets terms wrong.

Have you read The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood?

It's like a feminist 1984.