No no, sweetheart. Virgin in today's dictionary means "sexually pure" because it has been the general term. In biblical times, the Virgin Mary was unmarried (pure) but not sexually pure. Catholicism - and now all Christian factions - perceive her to have been sexually pure because she was the mother of the Messiah. The bible does not say that Mary had never had sex, but was a virgin (unmarried). It was assumed that all unmarried women were sexually pure, because that was part of the culture. So you - nor anyone else - knows if she had sex before she and Joseph had Jesus. If you believe the Holy Conception BS, then that's your problem. But the term VIRGIN technically means unmarried. In today's society, we perceive and apply it as being sexually pure.

There are pagan stories of Virgin Mothers who are very comfortable with their sexuality, and have sex on a regular basis. Yet they're virgin mothers. They have children with no father, because they have never been married. Pagans don't believe in holy conceptions, or shall I say misconceptions?

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Int he sixth month [of pregnatcy], God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town of Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a desendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

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This says that in the sixth month of pregnancy, GOD sent Gabriel to Nazareth. So now God's pregnant, eh? Must be some work he's doing.

I found an interesting site. Strange, yes.. but also interesting. It puts a spin on the entire Christian belief of Mary conceiving Jesus with the absence of having had sex.
Here

Plato taught that the mind and spirit was good and the body was base or bad. Many people, including many of the church fathers, took this belief and arrived at the conclusion that sex is evil, even in marriage, because it is a bodily function. Thus, because they wanted to believe Mary was sinless, the church decided that she had to stay a virgin because sex with Joseph would have been evil. Most non-Catholic theologians believe that Mary and Joseph had a normal marriage, producing several children which are mentioned in texts such as Matt. 13:55 ("Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"). This "material is bad" idea is also behind the belief that she could not have experienced the decay of deathlike the rest of mortals, which spawned the idea of her assumption into heaven.

Mary the "Virgin"
"There is no doubt that the Virgin Mary was chosen to be the vessel of our Lord because she was pure and blameless. She is called the "Virgin Mary". But Virgin does not mean what it means in contemporary English, namely, sexually untouched. The Hebrew for "virgin" is almah, meaning, "pure". She continues to be referred to the Virgin Mary by Christians even after she had increased her family so obviously she is not "virgin" in the sense of being sexually untouched.

I suspect the reason why Christians throughout the centuries have come to believe that Christ could not have been associated with sex in any way has something to do with early Catholic ideas on the virtues of singleness. If Christ was indeed single, and if this is connected in some way to Jesus' sex-free miraculous conception, then we must ask ourselves the question: why? Is the uniqueness of the Virgin Birth to do with its sex-free environment or some other reason?"

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Virgin technically means "unmarried"

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WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] the sixth sign of the zodiac; the sun is in this sign from about August 23 to September 22
[n] (astrology) a person who is born while the sun is in Virgo
[n] a person who has never had sex
[adj] in a state of sexual virginity; "pure and vestal modesty"; "a spinster or virgin lady"; "men have decreed that their women must be pure and virginal"
[adj] being used or worked for the first time; "virgin wool"


Synonyms: chaste, new, pure, vestal, virginal, Virgo, Virgo, Virgo the Virgin, virtuous

See Also: house, human, individual, inexperienced person, innocent, mansion, mortal, person, planetary house, sign, sign of the zodiac, somebody, someone, soul, star sign

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Vir"gin\, n. [L. virgo, -inis: cf. OF. virgine, virgene,
virge, vierge, F. vierge.]
1. A woman who has had no carnal knowledge of man; a maid.

2. A person of the male sex who has not known sexual
indulgence. [Archaic] --Wyclif.

These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins. --Rev. xiv. 4.

He his flesh hath overcome; He was a virgin, as he
said. --Gower.

3. (Astron.) See {Virgo}.

4. (Zo["o]l.) Any one of several species of gossamer-winged
butterflies of the family {Lyc[ae]nid[ae]}.

5. (Zo["o]l.) A female insect producing eggs from which young
are hatched, though there has been no fecundation by a
male; a parthenogenetic insect.

{The Virgin}, or {The Blessed Virgin}, the Virgin Mary, the
Mother of our Lord.

{Virgin's bower} (Bot.), a name given to several climbing
plants of the genus {Clematis}, as {C. Vitalba} of Europe,
and {C. Virginiana} of North America.


\Vir"gin\, a.
1. Being a virgin; chaste; of or pertaining to a virgin;
becoming a virgin; maidenly; modest; indicating modesty;
as, a virgin blush. ``Virgin shame.'' --Cowley.

Innocence and virgin modesty . . . That would be
wooed, and unsought be won. --Milton.

2. Pure; undefiled; unmixed; fresh; new; as, virgin soil;
virgin gold. ``Virgin Dutch.'' --G. W. Cable.

The white cold virgin snow upon my heart. --Shak.

A few ounces of mutton, with a little virgin oil.
--Landor.

3. Not yet pregnant; impregnant. --Milton.


\Vir"gin\, v. i.
To act the virgin; to be or keep chaste; -- followed by it.
See {It}, 5. [Obs.] ``My true lip hath virgined it e'er since
[that kiss].'' --Shak.


However in Virginity we get this.

WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] the condition or quality of being a virgin

See Also: condition, status




Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Vir*gin"i*ty\, n. [OE. virgintee, F. virginit['e], L.
virginitas.]
1. The quality or state of being a virgin; undefiled purity
or chastity; maidenhood.

2. The unmarried life; celibacy. [Obs.] --Chaucer.


Celibacy is.

WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] abstaining from sexual relations
[n] an unmarried status (as because of religious vows)


Synonyms: chastity, sexual abstention

See Also: abstinence, condition, status




Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Ce*lib"a*cy\, n. [See {Celibate}, n.]
The state of being unmarried; single life, esp. that of a
bachelor, or of one bound by vows not to marry. ``The
celibacy of the clergy.'' --Hallom.

Now in the Bible it says this about Mary [Jesus' mother]

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Int he sixth month [of pregnatcy], God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town of Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a desendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

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So we know they are not talking about someone unmarried, but someone who has never had sex.

Now true they were not married untill after Jesus' birth. But if there pledged to be married then there not exactly talking about a life of celibacy.

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I suppose you didn't read everything else I posted.

And in anyway for its time the Differance in Juduism and Christiany and the surrounding Pagan cultures were outstanding. Like I said there are many simularites in all religions, and cultures, this doesn't make them copied, and to say so is pure speculation. The Egyptians and Aztecs both built Pyramids, so did they copy each other? They probably didn't know each other.

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i dont think anyone here is trying to say that religions were copied, just adapted from previous religions, it happens all the time, new beliefs developed from the knowlegde of then and the knowledge of know, its all false though, in my world, my precieved reality, your all wrong so ha! theres nothing you can do about it

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So Christianity ends up being not too different from the Pagan religions they want to distance themselves from so much.

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I suppose you didn't read everything else I posted.

And in anyway for its time the Differance in Juduism and Christiany and the surrounding Pagan cultures were outstanding. Like I said there are many simularites in all religions, and cultures, this doesn't make them copied, and to say so is pure speculation. The Egyptians and Aztecs both built Pyramids, so did they copy each other? They probably didn't know each other.

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They need someone to pin the blame on.

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And you just don't want told what you do is either right or wrong, because its probably mostly wrong.

Also forgot to mention Dionysus, look into that as well, it very interesting to see the similarities between a lot of religions.

Since we are talking about similarities between religions, I suggest looking into the Greek mystery religions, in particular the Eleusinian mysteries. Some of the basics of Christianity were a direct copy of the Eleusinian mysteries, I.E. Communion. Also the Greeks copied most of their religious traditions from the Egyptians. So Christianity ends up being not too different from the Pagan religions they want to distance themselves from so much.
Just some food for thought, not meant to get anybody worked up.

They need someone to pin the blame on.

you go YouthVoice! faith is believing in something you can't see, or hear...

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....how do you know that he's real? do you have proof?
-mike

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No, I do not have proof that you would accept. But I don't need any proof, if I did, then it wouldn't be called faith.

sweet day.

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I believe in God, not because I need to believe in something, but because I know that He infact is real. Wether you choose to follow Him or not...that is your choice.

sweet day.

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....how do you know that he's real? do you have proof?
-mike

I believe in God, not because I need to believe in something, but because I know that He infact is real. Wether you choose to follow Him or not...that is your choice.

sweet day.

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The tridition of the tree (according to ledgend) began with Martin Luther, the founder of the pordistant movement, in 1510.
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the Yule Tree [or wishing tree] was also pagan. you would hang your wishes on it [i know other cultures did this too, but like you said, korith, theyre the same in many aspects] and you would save the trunk for the may pole on Beltaine.

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there is also "the tree of life" which is taught in the Quabala i believe, sort of an occultistic(by the way, for all of you scary christians out there, occult means unkown, not satanic) belief...its a really interesting concept though.

people turn to god because its all they have, everyone must find an out, mine is music, therefor i have no need for any "god" my mind has gone to other worlds with music and has helped me through tough times, no praying or worshiping or blindly following, just listening and creating. Also people turn to religion because they fear...the fear is different for everyone but alot of the time its the fear of death and the unknown..fear of creation, and death...the idea that some deity just "is" and can just "be" with out being first created, that created everything else, and will be there to greet you in a warm beautiful heaven when it all ends is much easier to accept than to accept that we do not know nor will we probably ever know what exactly happend that created everything, or what the process is that our mind/soul goes through when we die. none of it matters anyways...everyone has their "truth" the only thing i guess that makes it false to you is whether or not you choose to believe in it...
-mike

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I find it interesting people say this. With all the Jewish holidays who's to say that pagans don't steal from them?

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Pagans didn't steal anything from anyone. Pagans were one of the -first- religious groups that we can trace back. They believed that spirits were in everything (polytheism). The Jews wouldn't form yet for thousands of years. Pagan customs are the basic foundation for many monotheistic holidays:

Halloween:
The Celts called it Samhain, which means "summer's end," according to their ancient two-fold division of the year, when summer ran from Beltane to Samhain and winter ran from Samhain to Beltane. (Some modern Covens echo this structure by letting the High Priest 'rule' the Coven beginning on Samhain, with rulership returned to the High Priestess at Beltane.) According to the later four-fold division of the year, Samhain is seen as "autumn's end" and the beginning of winter. Not only is Samhain the end of autumn; it is also, more importantly, the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Celtic New Year's Eve, when the new year begins with the onset of the dark phase of the year, just as the new day begins at sundown. All Hallow's Eve/Halloween is now celebrated as a day to carve pumpkins (pagan - jack-o-lanterns were used as a lantern by people who traveled the road this night; the scary face would frighten away spirits or faries who might otherwise lead one astray) and harass your neighbors for candy (trick-or-treating is from Celtic origin - also pagan). It is a holiday for everyone who wishes to participate.

Christmas:
The holiday of Christmas has always been more Pagan than Christian, with it's associations of Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithraism. That is why both Martin Luther and John Calvin abhorred it, why the Puritans refused to acknowledge it, much less celebrate it (to them, no day of the year could be more holy than the Sabbath), and why it was even made ILLEGAL in Boston. The holiday was already too closely associated with the birth of older Pagan gods and heroes. And many of them (like Oedipus, Theseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, Horus and even Arthur) possessed a narrative of birth, death, and resurrection that was uncomfortably close to that of Jesus. Ultimately, of course, the holiday is rooted deeply in the cycle of the year. It is the Winter Solstice that is being celebrated, seed-time of the year, the longest night and shortest day. It is the birthday of the new Sun King, the Son of God - by whatever name you choose to call him. On this darkest of nights, the Goddess becomes the Great Mother and once again gives birth. And it makes perfect poetic sense that on the longest night of the winter, 'the dark night of our souls', there springs the new spark of hope, the Sacred Fire, the Light of the World, the Coel Coeth. There had been a tradition in the West that Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could seem to decide on the month (estimated sometime in July, not December). Finally, in 320 C.E., the Catholic Fathers in Rome decided to make it December, in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration of the Romans and the Yule celebrations of the Celts and Saxons. Along with the evergreen, the holly and the ivy and the mistletoe were important plants of the season, all symbolizing fertility and everlasting life. Mistletoe was especially venerated by the Celtic Druids, who cut it with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the moon, and believed it to be an aphrodisiac (magically -- not medicinally - it's highly toxic).

Easter:
"Lady's Day."
The Christian holiday of Easter commemorates the crucifixion of Christ, and his rise from the dead into heaven. Then where do all the symbolism of bunnies and eggs come from? It's more than coincidence that the early Pagans had a holiday to mark the Spring Equinox, called Ostara, usually celebrated around March 21st. With the return of spring, came the birthing of the farm animals for the year. Which is why we see bunnies, chicks, eggs and little lambs as symbols for this holiday. Part of the Ostara mythology involved the return of various deities from the underworld (symbolic of the end of winter). So it's not surprising that this holiday got enmeshed with the Christian story of the resurrection of Christ.

Groundhog Day:
Well, it's not specifically Christian or celebrated as intensely as the two holidays just mentioned, Groundhog Day is still part of the modern-day year. Candlemas (or Imbolc) is celebrated on February 2nd. Because spring is just starting to show itself at this time of year, there were various superstitions about predicting the weather, and how long it would be until the end of winter. The original idea was to watch for a hedgehog, but as people immigrated to North America, the tradition changed to a ground hog to suit local wildlife.

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People dig as deep as they can to try disprove Christianity and when they start using this argument they start looking stupid

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No one is disproving Christianity, Korith. Christian holidays are pagan holidays, but re-vamped. For instance, Catholic Priests (around the time of the Norman Invasion) were trying to spread Christianity, but the Celts were too tied to their pagan roots - so to make the transition from Druism/polytheism to Christianity, they changed Winter Solstice to Christmas, so more and more people drifted into Christianity.

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I am sure our [America] Independence day is close to someone else's, did we still it? Of course not. Is any new nations who's Independence day close to ours stilling from us? No.

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Hello? Did you ever take History? July 4th (America's Independence Day) was simply when Thomas Jefferson and his posse decided to declare freedom from Britain, later resulting in war. The day was chosen when it was because that was the best time for the war - it was inevitable, and soldiers would have had more trouble fighting in the winter.

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So what your saying here is that thanksgiving is not a Sovereign American holiday.
You are full of it.

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Thanksgiving and Halloween are not the same thing. Thanksgiving is just a celebration of the first Harvest by the Puritans.

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The prophecies of the messiah [Jesus] predate most of all the pagan similarity’s, I.E. People claim the Virgin birth was stolen from Buddhism, when the Isaiah prophesized about it as early as 100 years before his birth. So did the Buddhist copy the Jews? I don’t think so. Mystery religions all share similarities as well, the Romans, Greek, and Egyptian mystery religions seem almost identical, yet they were this way long before the cultures ever came in contact, so to say their the same, or copied, is unsound.

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Virgin technically means "unmarried." Not "sexually pure," as many Christians believe. Anyway, cultures build upon one another, and become independently modified. Christianity and Judaism is that way. Islam is that way. Taoism is that way. Neo-pagan religions are that way. No culture steals from another, but customs are modified and fit to each religions doctrines/holidays. Point: Christians HAVE borrowed many of their holidays from the pagans, and there IS proof of that. try doing some research.

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Wicca’s themselves have no pin point historical foundation, but is the only culture to openly admit that it is a compilation of other pagan cultures.

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Wiccans are pagan. There are different divisions of it (like Christianity) and many have different beliefs and/or practices. Every sect of your Christian religion is a modification of another; the same applies to Wicca.

Stick to spelling bees. Heh. I knew it probably wasn't the Spanish...In all honesty, I'm writing from a vague memory of something my World Geography teacher once read to the class, so that's why it's a little mixed up. But it definitely didn't have anything to do with the Germans as far as I can remember. I believe it may have been the Yule tree that DWM mentioned. My post was more in the hopes that someone who knew what they were talking about would see it and clarify. Love, Jen.

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So what your saying here is that thanksgiving is not a Sovereign American holiday.
You are full of it.

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i couldnt give a **** less about america. as soon as i can leave, i will.

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Both of these holidays are American and not Christian holidays.

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i didnt say they were christian. i just said they were pagan first.

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I find this statement ironic sense the Wicca’s themselves have no pin point historical foundation, but is the only culture to openly admit that it is a compilation of other pagan cultures.

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you caught the mistake. wicca started with Gardener, with his view of a new pagan movement. good job.

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This is equally ironic for you to say DWM given that you are just as guilty of trying to say Christians are wrong.

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i dont say christians are wrong. i think all positive faiths are the same. it doesnt matter what spiritual path you take, just that you are spiritual. "just as the streams flows to the river, so too do the rivers flow to the sea." all religions are right.

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You seem bitter.

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i am bitter. but that was sarcasm.

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I don’t understand that mentality, you get mad as us for something we say, that you don’t even believe in.

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im not mad, do i seem mad? sorry.

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If you do not believe what you believe in is right, then why do you believe?

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did i say that? *thinks for a sec* done thinking, im confusing myself. i understood what you said, i just dont remember when i said it.

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The tridition of the tree (according to ledgend) began with Martin Luther, the founder of the pordistant movement, in 1510.

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the Yule Tree [or wishing tree] was also pagan. you would hang your wishes on it [i know other cultures did this too, but like you said, korith, theyre the same in many aspects] and you would save the trunk for the may pole on Beltaine.

phew, that took a long time

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I believe it may have been the Spanish conquistadores, but I could be totally wrong

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Totally wrong, stick to spelling bees.

It was a German tridition. And didn't really become part of christmas tridition until the late 1800's.

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They did it to make the pagans they were trying to convert more comfortable with Christianity so they wouldn't rebel.

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The tridition of the tree (according to ledgend) began with Martin Luther, the founder of the pordistant movement, in 1510.

People followed his lead and soon it was symbolic (in germany) with christmass (sense it was a evergreen it the fir was the perfect choice, also in a attemp not to anger pagans who saw the were more reverant to the Oak tree) People when greating other to parties would hang ginger and other baked goods, so when people left they would have a parting gift hanging from the tree.

The english didn't really take hold to the tridition untill the 17th century.

The Hessians tried to introduce there culture to the American people, but it didn't really take due to the fact they hated the Hessians for fighting along side the British.

Oh, and about the pagan holidays and such. Some people (I believe it may have been the Spanish conquistadores, but I could be totally wrong) adopted certain practices from pagan holidays (like the Christmas tree) and