Well... Excuse me.

I do have a question for the vegetarians though. Should we stop wolves, lions, tigers, bears, etc., from eating meat? They make their prey suffer in the worst ways. Wolves will sometimes eat thier prey while its still alive yet you seem ok with this.

"""The soil that we use will lose it's nutrients over time and will not sustain any more growing, not even grass."""
___Over how much time?

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Besides, I don't think people are going to be eating grass anytime soon.

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We clear forests to grow vegetables and friuts and grains, to feed everyone and the vegetarians. The soil that we use will lose it's nutrients over time and will not sustain any more growing, not even grass. Therefore the vegetarians will have no choice but to either eat each other or eat the animals.

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I'm going to eat the animals to keep the populations down to keep them from starving to death.

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Come on! We raise these animals, if we didn't raise them to EAT, their population would go back to normal, and then it wouldn't matter if we didn't leave them enough food. Besides, I don't think people are going to be eating grass anytime soon.

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Not all fat is good for you; in particular Trans fatty acids are extremely bad for you and should be avoided at all costs.

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I never said that all fat is good for you, dj. But your body NEEDS fat to stay healthy.

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Far more doctors and health experts will tell you that a vegetarian diet is much more beneficial for your body and mind than a meat-eating diet.

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Your brain can not function properly without fats and proteins which you get from meat. That is how the brains of our early ancestors got larger. They switched from an all vegetarian diet to an omnivorous diet with the making of tools they made for hunting and our brain size expanded over hundreds of thousands of years.

Your brain is obviously starving.

If 6 billion people ate nothing but fruits and vegetables, the hebivores will starve, then the carnivores will die, and then all the humans will die.

If that didn't make sense to you read it again and again until your eyes bleed. Storm, I'm extremely disappointed in you. You call yourself Wiccan but you're trying to convince us not to eat meat like it's going to benefit anyone. You are only going make yourself happy if everyone stopped eating meat. That goes against Wiccan ethics. Most Wiccans know (or should know) that eating the Earth's bounty should be embraced and celebrated. If you want to be vegetarian, go ahead. You're eating food that belongs to the animals. I'm going to eat the animals to keep the populations down to keep them from starving to death. You need to learn more from nature before you start pushing your beliefs on everyone.

If I choose to clog my arteries, thats my problem and my business, not yours.

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Fat IS good for you. Your body needs fat, and females especially need fat (healthy make have about 18-20% body fat, and females have 22-27% body fat). Too much fat is not good for you,

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Not all fat is good for you; in particular Trans fatty acids are extremely bad for you and should be avoided at all costs. But these are found in mostly in processed foods. If anything Americas problem is processed foods not meat, not to mention all the synthetic **** pumped into everything. My suggestion is eat as close to nature as possible.

And here’s a list of fats that are good for you
Polyunsaturated
Omega 3 and 6 which are variants of poly-unsaturated
Monounsaturated
List provided by my Nutrition professor, Nancy Lu, at San Jose State.

Ofcourse fat is bad if you don't have it in moderation. So how many people have died from Mad Cow disease in the US? I think ill take my chances.

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Actually… no. You see, this is why America is full of a bunch of fat overloaded pigs, it is because they think that fat is good for them; they think that it will keep them healthy. Of course, what tastes good is simply “not good for you”. But that’s not true, chow such as vegetables are just as good, but without all the extra fat and mad cow disease.

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America has an obesity problem because people eat too much in general (i.e. their meal portions are too large), and do not exercise enough. Fat IS good for you. Your body needs fat, and females especially need fat (healthy make have about 18-20% body fat, and females have 22-27% body fat). Too much fat is not good for you, but the same applies to other foods, as well (even vitamins). Also, mad cow disease “is not caused by cows eating animal parts with their food, a feeding method that has been done for over 100 years. Cows that get Mad Cow Disease are the very ones that have had a particular organophosphate insecticide applied to their backs or have grazed on soils that lack magnesium but contain high levels of aluminum. Small outbreaks of mad cow disease have also occurred among people who reside near cement and chemical factories and in certain areas with volcanic soils. The organophosphate pesticides got into the cows' fat through a spraying program, and then were ingested by the cows again with the animal part feeding. Seen this way, it is the insecticides, via the parts feeding (and not the parts themselves), that has caused this outbreak. As noted before, cows have been eating ground up animal parts in their feeds for over 100 years. It was never a problem before the introduction of these particular insecticides.”

Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth's natural resources.

Some have argued that cows and sheep require pasturage that could be better used to raise grains to feed starving millions in Third World countries. Additionally, claims are made that raising livestock requires more water than raising plant foods. Both arguments are illogical and simplistic.
The pasturage argument ignores the fact that a large portion of our Earth's dry land is unsuited to cultivation. The open range and desert and mountainous areas yield their fruits to grazing animals (1).


Unfortunately, the bulk of commercial livestock are not range fed, but stall fed. They do not ingest grasses and shrubs (like they should), but are fed an unnatural array of grains and soybeans. It is true that these foods could be fed to humans. The argument here, then, is not that eating meat depletes the Earth's resources, but that commercial farming methods do. Such methods also subject livestock to deplorable living conditions where infections, antibiotics, steroids and synthetic hormones are common. These all lead to an unhealthy animal and, by extension, an unhealthy food product. Organically raised livestock, then, is a healthier and more humane choice (see myth #15 for more on this topic).


As for the claims that raising livestock requires more water than raising plant foods, water that livestock drink would be drunk by them anyway, even if they were not being raised for food. Additionally, the urine of grazing animals, which mostly comprises water, is rich in nitrogen which helps replenish the soil. Much of the water used in commercial livestock farming, however, is used up in growing the various grains and soybeans fed to the animals. If a concerted effort were made to return to the ecologically sound "mixed farm," (described below), then such huge expenditures of water would be unnecessary.

A far more serious threat to humanity, and the Earth, is the monoculture of grains and legumes, advocated by some vegetarian groups, which depletes the soil and requires the heavy use of artificial fertilisers and dangerous pesticides; pesticides that must first be tested on animals for safety. The solution? Astute writers on this dilemma have pointed out:

The educated consumer and the enlightened farmer together can bring about a return of the mixed farm, where cultivation of fruits, vegetables and grains is combined with the raising of livestock and fowl in a manner that is efficient, economical and environmentally friendly. For example, chickens running free in garden areas eat insect pests, while providing high-quality eggs; sheep grazing in orchards obviate the need for herbicides; and cows grazing in woodlands and other marginal areas provide rich, pure milk, making these lands economically viable for the farmer. It is not animal cultivation that leads to hunger
and famine, but unwise agricultural practices and monopolistic distribution systems.

The "mixed farm" is also healthier for the soil, which will yield more crops if managed according to traditional guidelines. British organic farmer and dairyman Mark Purdey has accurately pointed out that a crop field on a mixed farm will yield up to five harvests a year, while a "mono-cropped" one will only yield one or two . Which farm is producing more food for the world's peoples? Purdey well sums up the ecological horrors of "battery farming" by saying:

Our agricultural establishments could do very well to outlaw the business- besotted farmers running intensive livestock units, battery systems and beef-burger bureaucracies; with all their wastages, deplorable cruelty, anti-ozone slurry systems; drug/chemical induced immunotoxicity resulting in B.S.E. and salmoella, rain forest eradication, etc. Our future direction must strike the happy, healthy medium of mixed farms, resurrecting the old traditional extensive system as a basic framework, then bolstering up productivity to present day demands by incorporating a more updated application of biological science into farming systems.


Vegetarian Myths

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Actually what vitamins you may lose can be replaced by an adequate diet. You can as well take pills to help yourself with any protein you may lose while being a vegetarian/ vegan. Besides, I can see myself not dying at the age of 65 because of clogged arteries from the fat and sickening juices that are only found in meat.

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Those are myths:

Myth: The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from plant foods. Vitamin A is principally found in animal products. Plants do contain beta-carotene, a substance that the body can convert into vitamin A. The impression given by some vegetarian sources is that beta-carotene is just as good as vitamin A. This is not true.

Firstly, the conversion from carotene to vitamin A can only take place in the presence of bile salts. This means that fat must be eaten with the carotenes to stimulate bile secretion. Additionally, infants and people with hypothyroidism, gall bladder problems or diabetes either cannot make the conversion or do so very poorly. Lastly, the body's conversion from carotene to vitamin A is not very efficient: it takes 46 units of carotene to make one unit of vitamin A. What this means is that the sweet potato (containing about 25,000 units of beta-carotene) you just ate will only convert into about 4,000 units of vitamin A (assuming you ate it with fat and do not have a thyroid or gall bladder problem) [16].

Relying on plant sources for vitamin A, then, is not a very wise idea. This is why good-old-fashioned butter is a virtual must in any diet. Butter from pasture-fed cows is rich in vitamin A and will provide the intestines with the fatty material needed to convert vegetable carotenes into active vitamin A. Vitamin A is all-important in our diets, for it enables the body to use proteins and minerals (17).

Myth: Meat-eaters have higher rates of heart and kidney disease, cancer, obesity and osteoporosis than vegetarians.

Such stupendous claims are hard to reconcile with historical and anthropological facts. All of the diseases mentioned are primarily 20th century occurrences, yet people have been eating meat and animal fat for thousands of years. Further, there are several native peoples around the world (the Innu, Masai, Swiss, Greeks, etc.) whose traditional diets are very rich in animal products, but do not suffer from the above-mentioned maladies. This shows that other factors besides animal foods are at work in these diseases.
Several studies have supposedly shown that meat consumption is the cause of heart disease, cancer and bone loss, but such studies, honestly evaluated, show no such thing. For example, the studies that supposedly proved that meat consumption among the Inuit caused high rates of osteoporosis, failed to note other dietary factors that contributed to bone loss and other chronic diseases. Things such as refined sugar consumption, alcoholism and a junk food consumption equaled more bone loss were not done with real meat but with fractionated protein powders.
Certainly, when protein is consumed in such an unnatural fashion, separated from the fat-soluble nutrients required for its absorption and assimilation, it will lead to problems. Because of this, the current use of fat-free protein powders as "food supplements", and low-fat or non-fat dairy products should be avoided. Trimming off visible fat from meats and removing duck and chicken skin before eating should also be discouraged.
Despite claims that studies have shown that meat consumption increased the risk for heart disease, their authors actually found the opposite. For example, in a 1984 analysis of a 1978 study of Seventh Day Adventists (who are largely vegetarian), H. A. Kahn concluded, "Although our results add some substantial facts to the diet-disease question, we recognize how remote they are from establishing, for example, that men who frequently eat meat or women who rarely eat salad are thereby shortening their lives.”. A similar conclusion was reached by D.A. Snowden. Despite these startling admissions, the studies nevertheless concluded the exact opposite and urged people to reduce animal foods from their diets.
Further, both of these studies threw out certain dietary data that clearly showed no connection between eggs, cheese, whole milk, and fat attached to meat (all high fat and cholesterol foods) and heart disease. Statistician Dr. Russel Smith concluded, "In effect the Kahn [and Snowden] study is yet another example of negative results which are massaged and misinterpreted to support the politically correct assertions that vegetarians live longer lives." When all of the data are taken into account, the actual differences of heart disease between vegetarians and non-vegetarians in these studies was less than 1%: hardly a significant amount.
It should be noted here that Seventh Day Adventists are often studied in population analyses to prove that a vegetarian diet is healthier and is associated with a lower risk for heart disease and cancer (but see the last paragraph in this section). While it is true that most members of this Christian denomination do not eat meat, they also do not smoke, drink alcohol, or drink coffee or tea, all of which may be factors in promoting cancer and heart disease.
The Mormons are a religious group often overlooked in vegetarian studies. Although their Church urges moderation, Mormons do not abstain from meat. Mormonism's founder, Joseph Smith, declared a diet devoid of animal products as "not of God." As with the Adventists, Mormons avoid tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine. Despite being meat eaters, a study of Utah Mormons showed they had a 22% lower rate for cancer in general and a 34% lower mortality for colon cancer than the US average. A study of Puerto Ricans, who eat large amounts of fatty pork, nevertheless revealed very low rates of colon and breast cancer. Similar results can be adduced to demonstrate that meat consumption by itself does not correlate with cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, kidney disease, or obesity. Obviously, other factors are at work.
It is usually claimed that vegetarians have lower cancer rates than meat-eaters, but a 1994 study of California Seventh Day Adventists (who are largely vegetarian) showed that, while they did have lower rates of some cancers (e.g., breast), they had significantly higher rates of several others (brain, skin, uterine, cervical and ovarian).

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It's generally not healthy for you.

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You guys can't possibly think this statement is honestly true! I’m actually laughing right now. You are very much misinformed. The whole, “Vegetarians don’t get enough protein or iron.” is total myth. Most meat-eating Americans get way too much protein in the first place (due to super size crap). Vegetarians get all the protein they need from eggs, dairy, and certain green vegetables. Vegetarians can get all the iron they need to also. Beans (like black beans and lentils), greens, and many other vegetables are very rich in iron. When eaten with foods containing vitamin C, it helps your body to absorb the iron more quickly. Taking vitamin supplements help but are not necessary for a good vegetarian diet. So when done right, vegetarians get all the nutrition they need without the cholesterol and guilt that eating meat gives you.

The only vitamin that is missing in a Vegetarian diet is vitamin b12, which is only available in animal sources.
Also supplements are not a completely realistic way of getting your minerals and vitamins. The simple fact is we don't know everything about minerals and vitamins right now. Americans just need to learn ****ing moderation with their meat eating habits. I’m sorry but the amount of meat we eat is just extremely overboard and extremely unhealthy.

The only creature that benefits from Vegetarianism are humans and that won't last long.

Besides a big bloody T-Bone is what keeps me from verbally tearing people apart most days. Trust me I love animals, but I love eating them too, it's called Nature.

Theres nothing wrong with fat, its good for you, and those juices are delicous

Actually what vitamins you may lose can be replaced by an adequate diet. You can as well take pills to help yourself with any protein you may lose while being a vegetarian/ vegan. Besides, I can see myself not dying at the age of 65 because of clogged arteries from the fat and sickening juices that are only found in meat.

keep it up, just makes steak cheaper for me

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·As the forests are cleared, we’re losing species of wild animals.

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This is true, but the birth of every human displaces even more animals from the earth. Your presence has killed off many creatures. These forests are also cleared to grow your precious vegetables.

By the way, many plants have cells that can receive pain. Everything that was living that made it to our dinner plates has felt pain. Should we starve ourselves to spare the plants now? I'd also like to point out that most animals are vegetarian. When you start eating all of their food, what do you do then?

No it isn't. It's very unhealthy for you. It also doesn't 'save' a lot of animals.
-Sunset

Vegetarian is not better. You lose substantial amount of adequate protein and nutrition, as well as essential vitamins your body needs.

It's generally not healthy for you. But if you like it, then great. But it's not better for you, nor the animals you're "saving" (I used quotation marks for a reason..).