There are only a few arguments that I find justifiable to claim that the Death Penalty is wrong.
One is about the hypocrisy of the penalty itself. Primarily because it is contradictive the country's own laws of not killing individuals.
The second one is the possible mishaps in the justice system of sentencing an innocent man to the death penalty (which has happened.)
Morally, there is really nothing to talk about. The reason being is when one uses force against one another all morality is thrown out. From the murder to the one giving the punishment...there is no morality that takes place due to the initial act of force by the murderer. In general, those who purposely...meaning pre-meditated and thought through...murdered should forfeit their lives. They are nothing but imbeciles who do not recognize the right to life (which, I agree with someone earlier, this is not a divine idea). Personally, I would believe punishment by death is not even a strong enough punishment for those who have pre-meditated about killing someone.
As for the costs...How one could believe it costs more to kill someone than to keep them alive in jail for long periods of time is absurd. 10-15 years possibly on Death row is nothing compared to 30-40+ years in jail.
However, if you wish your tax money should go to someone who doesn't recognize your life...and doesn't value anything...or worth anything...by all means, sacrifice your hard earned money to keep them alive for their crimes. I like my money too much to want them mooching off my existence when they'd rather kill me =D
"I swear - by my life and my love of it - I will never live for the sake of another man nor ask another man to live for mine." - John Galt (Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand)
bigred, what is wrong with you??? So what are you really saying? Is it that people are so worthless that you can just kill them off the minute they sin and then pretend that it never happened? Also, can you really think it is right to destroy living creatures that you can't even create? And wasting our tax money? What sort of sick comment is that? I supose if we shouldn't use our tax money to keep criminals alive, then we shouldn't waste it on educating children with LDs either. I mean, why not just concentrate on the geniuses, since most of the 'dumb' kids will never cure AIDS or develop a car powered by compost.
The death penalty is wrong and it's certainly not helping to lower crime rates at all. The death penalty has been outlawed in most European countries and their crime rates remain far lower than our own. Particularly in countries that actually seek rehabilition of prisoners, instead of punishment (which plenty of psychological studies have shown to be less effective/damaging to an individual), crime rates are particularly low.
The death penalty is very expensive. Often, it takes 10 to 15 years to execute an individual, during the time lawyers/judges/jurors/etc. cost a considerable amount of money.
Also, people are falsely convicted more often than one would like to see, so I can't see the logic in killing someone, if our legal system could possibly convict the wrong person.
We also need to look at the socio-economic backgrounds and other factors in a person's life that drives them to kill. Our nation is inherently unequal in many respects. I do not believe people kill without having some mental distrubance or being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, which are very likely made more severe by their environment. This leads me back to the idea that the prison-industrial complex that dominates this country (one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world and also one of the highest crime rates) ought to be changed.
Call me whatever names you want, but our current prison system is not effective in preventing crimes and the death penalty is certainly not doing any good. 'An eye for an eye' is several thousand years old. One would think we have a bit more sense by now.
"In the depth of winter, I found that there lay within me an invincible summer."- Albert Camus
but we're going to punish them with the same action that we are punishing them for?
No, your deluding yourself. You are definately closer to the insane end of the scale than the sane. Im saying this out of concern. We are not brutally murdering someone due to being "fucked up", we are ending the life of someone who is sick and evil. The person we are murdering killed/raped someone who was NOT sick and evil. Therefore demanding the executioner is as bad as the murderer/rapist is insane. If you go to a clinical physicologist and say they are the same, he will HAVE to certify you.
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effectively they don't even serve time for what they've done... It's not a punishment.
Now that is true vengence. I believe in the death penalty not because of making them suffer, but because it destroys societies worst scum. Maya would prefer socities worst scum live.
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So essentially you're not denying you're a fascist and a racist.
Whats the point? The word racist is the new Heretic/Witch/Capitalist in soviet russia/1984 thought-crime. As a god damn commie, your going to use it. I would be freaked out if you didn't. I know im not a racist and a facist. Ive been buddies with someone from every race I can imagine. The society I specifically live in is as homogeneous as an international airport. But call me a racist, your a leftie and I expect no less. As for a facist, why would you even call me that? Your a commie is why, and you want to make this some kind of Operation Barbarosa ideological war. I expect no less from you.
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Me: But killing or imprisoning societies murdering-raping scum is more important. You: It most certainly is
Oh good, so we finally agree on something. Well at that, RD205 is done with this thread.
Ignoring practically everything you've said, i would just like to put in my 2cents. I don't believe in death penalty because A) for things like murder i don't believe you can 100% prove somebody as guilty as the system is not always just (and i'm sure we all know this) and B) Giving the penalty is just the easy way out. I honestly would rather DIE then serve life sentence. They are being let of lightly for what they have done, they are being let free.
As much as i resent people who have committed crimes such as rape, and how badly i wish their balls were cut of, i don't believe giving the death penalty is fair. It's letting THEM off, effectively they don't even serve time for what they've done... It's not a punishment.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Miss_Mod,
Originally posted by RaceDriver205: I don't think, maya, you actually understand what these people are. I think you have it in your head that these people are just like you, but that they did something bad. You should look up the "Wichita horror", the people who committed this are perfect examples of why we kill certain criminals. Wake up.
No RD, you fucking wake up and get out of your fucking bubble. In my ethics class my teacher gave us this article about a woman who'd been kidnapped with her boyfriend, and then raped, and finally made watch her boyfriend being murdered. Before she showed us this she asked us what our view was on the death penalty(I was against it). After we read it, she asked us again, to see if we'd changed our mind. Based on the disgusting story and details, obviously I felt like the two guys who did it deserved to die. But does that mean our legal system should be representative of that? Justice is not supposed to represent our subjective feelings, that's not how it should work. The fact that out of anger and pain we would support the death penalty does not make it any more right to kill that person.
A few posts down Shade or Clpo talked about how the system is supposed to ensure order. How is giving someone the death penalty ensuring order? Giving them a prison sentence for life without possibility of ever getting parole would ensure order just as well(don't give me the shit that they could escape, that is a pathetic argument).
Furthermore, the death penalty is extremely hypocritical. We all agree that these murderers are fucked up people for what they've done(don't give me the crap about how I side with the murderers more than the victims families, please), but we're going to punish them with the same action that we are punishing them for? And how can we condemn violence on a world wide level when in our daily lives we are constantly resorting to it, and approving of it(for example by supporting the death penalty)? I recently watched this movie called "The Laramie Project" where this guy is brutally beaten and later left to die, and at the trial the father gets up and says among other things "I would like nothing better than to see you die, Mr. McKinney. However, this is the time to begin the healing process, to show mercy to someone who refused to show any mercy." This is a true story. So don't use the argument that the families of the victim always want the murderer kill, as this is not always the case.
Look I know I am not going to convince you of anything, same as you wont ever convince me, but one last thing...What purpose do you say the death penalty serves? What do we accomplish that we couldn't accomplish with prison for life? The only possible answer for this is that it satisfies our thirst for violence and vengence, so don't dare pretend it serves any better purpose. At least be honest with yourself if you're not going to be on here.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
And you fail to accept socialism to be the most efficient path to it, due to your refusal to accept the past as reality. Im sure your belief of what 1984 was about is massively distorted, due to your undying faith in the insanity of socialism.
Eric Arthur Blair, a figure I happen to admire quite a bit, was a known socialist who even fought in the Spanish Civil War against Franco's Fascist regime. He wrote a book about his time in Spain titled Homage to Catalonia, if you read it you'd probably hate him and everything he's written. Dunno if you where aware of that.
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I am well aware of the left-wing power-words thanks . I am also well aware of what the free-market is and what a liberal economy is, and may they both live on.
So essentially you're not denying you're a fascist and a racist. As to a liberal market economy, I have yet to see one word from you that proves you know anything at all on the subject.
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Ill spell this out. Punishment is good. But killing or imprisoning societies murdering-raping scum is more important.
It most certainly is, no matter what someone has done his or her life must be respected, the only thing that differentiates us from animals is that we can choose.
I'll be flat out honest. I believe in an eye for two eyes. And yes yes ... I'm aware of the saying "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" BUT if you're going to make me blind I'm sure as hell going to take you down with me! That being said, I believe that if it can be proven without a reasonable doubt ie: Timothy McVeigh, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussain., etc. that they are murders and even worse, then they don't deserve to live. They didn't have mercy and sympathy for the people they killed. And I'm sorry, it may not be the most moral thing for me to say, but i"m human. and humans are full of vengance. It's instinct. It's survival of the fittest....
Lol! I finally made the commie burst! Awesome. Quite a spectacular burst too!
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you are intolerant, racist, fascist, and a bunch of other terms i will not bother to use
I am well aware of the left-wing power-words thanks . I am also well aware of what the free-market is and what a liberal economy is, and may they both live on.
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You repeatedly praise 1984 but your general lack of knowledge on absolutely everything suggest you don't even know the meaning of the term dystopia.
And you fail to accept socialism to be the most efficient path to it, due to your refusal to accept the past as reality. Im sure your belief of what 1984 was about is massively distorted, due to your undying faith in the insanity of socialism.
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The common logic of a rough penal system acting as a persuasion to criminals has been proven to be false and uneffective, thus, how can we continue to justify the death penalty when it is obvious that it is not accomplishing it's objective.
Ill spell this out. Punishment is good. But killing or imprisoning societies murdering-raping scum is more important.
I don't think, maya, you actually understand what these people are. I think you have it in your head that these people are just like you, but that they did something bad. You should look up the "Wichita horror", the people who committed this are perfect examples of why we kill certain criminals. Wake up.
Unless of course your a commie like speed, in which case anything goes as 'logic'.
Listen to me you dumb fuck, I look down on the likes of you because I know for a fact that you are scum. you are intolerant, racist, fascist, and a bunch of other terms i will not bother to use. The only thing you repeatedly throw at me is that I'm a commie, even after you have made clear you don't even know what a free market is, much less communism. You repeatedly praise 1984 but your general lack of knowledge on absolutely everything suggest you don't even know the meaning of the term dystopia. And your profile say's you're 21, come the fuck on, I knew the difference between a liberal economy and a socialist one at the age of 17. I've said it before(In my Capitalism thread in which I so conveniently crushed you) and I'll say it again: If there's one thing that's bothersome it's jackasses making themselves out to be experts on something they know absolutely nothing about.
Get in your time machine to the 50's and get back to living between McCarthy's legs you dead end of evolution.
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Law is not vengeance or justice. Law is order. To kill them is to keep order, to keep their chaos out of society. That is law in its basist form. "Loved ones" may not have a say at all in what happens to the accused. Stop being so closed minded and look at the whole picture.
Law's intended purpose is to maintain order but you can't deny that the motive behind the death penalty is vengeance, society's collective mind wants vengeance against those that damage it. Of course this can't be said or accepted, but nonetheless it is true, maintaning order through execution is a feudal practice that became culturally outdated over a hunderd years ago, nonetheless, society still maintains it's predatory instinct and this instinct is fullfilled through the execution of criminals. Statistics being the commonly accepted means of social analisys, all that is needed is looking at Europe. There are no countries in the European Union that enforce the death penalty, and our crime rates are generally much lower than those in the US. Why is that? Why are there less homicides, armed robbery's, assaults, kidnappings, etc... The common logic of a rough penal system acting as a persuasion to criminals has been proven to be false and uneffective, thus, how can we continue to justify the death penalty when it is obvious that it is not accomplishing it's objective.
logical fallacy that death should be punished with death
Morally sure you can justify. You can sit on your big moral high horse and say "Im better than you, Ill forgive like Jesus did". Logically no. Unless of course your a commie like speed, in which case anything goes as 'logic'.
Law is not vengeance or justice. Law is order. To kill them is to keep order, to keep their chaos out of society. That is law in its basist form. "Loved ones" may not have a say at all in what happens to the accused. Stop being so closed minded and look at the whole picture.
...a Wandering Star for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever...
Keep killing the scum as fast as possible will always be a sane persons response.
yeah that sounds very sane.
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I wonder what makes people side with the evil murderers wants instead of the wants of the victims loved ones.
First of all, being AGAINST the death penalty is not siding with the murderer, the other option is a life sentence, so I do not know how you see that as siding with the murderer. I think giving someone the death penalty is just a ridiculous and hypocritical punishment, as it accomplishes nothing, but whatever. Second, not all the victims families want the killer to get the death penalty, that is a lame excuse that lots of you like to use to try to make it sound like being against the death penalty is trying to hurt them, so quit throwing things out there. Last time I checked the justice system was not supposed to be representative of vengence, but whatever. At least I am not trying to change the facts to favor my argument.
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don't believe people can be so hideously evil as to do this, so I can only assume its an unfortunatate mental disorder they suffer from.
Quit being such a close-minded fuck simply because some don't agree with you. Get over it.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
Yeah, im just kidding, I always want whats best for evil raping-murdering-torturing people. Sorry to have given the impression I was "fucked-up". 2+2=5.
Originally posted by RaceDriver205: Keep killing the scum as fast as possible will always be a sane persons response. I wonder what makes people side with the evil murderers wants instead of the wants of the victims loved ones. I don't believe people can be so hideously evil as to do this, so I can only assume its an unfortunatate mental disorder they suffer from.
RaceDriver, are you that fucked up? Or are you just pretending?
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. - E.B.White
Topics 
. I am also well aware of what the free-market is and what a liberal economy is, and may they both live on.
2+2=5.