After reading YN's tips about how to influence the upcoming presidential election, I was enthused. I've done my share of random public speeches, setting up Kerry signs, even tacking MoveOn info to car windshields. What I've come to realize, though, is that my efforts are futile, because I'm in Arizona. If you want to help with a campaign by trying to influence your community to vote for your candidate, you pretty much have to live in a swing state. Otherwise, you'd be much better off donating money to the campaign you support and trying to influence the nation at large via such outlets as YouthNoise. Anyway, for those who aren't really sure which states the swing states are or where they stand, I'll lay them out, in alphabetical order. All of the following statistics are taken from Newsweek, who in turn got these statistics from putting together statistics from Survey USA, Pew, Research 2000, The Los Angeles Times, The American Research Group, GOP Consultancy Strategic Vision, and PollingReport.com:

Arkansas (6 electoral votes) - Bush's lead has been reduced to 1%, and Kerry is on the rise...3 weeks ago, Bush led Kerry by 8%. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 47%)

Colorado (9 electoral votes) - Kerry has had a surge of popularity here as well, and Bush and Kerry are now within half a percent of one another. Kerry has the support of big cities like Denver and Boulder, and Bush has rounded up the rural mountains towns; they seem to cancel each other out exactly. Colorado suburbia will break the tie. Ampmaster, if you're by any chance one of the Colorado suburbians, I most sincerely urge you to start making pro-Bush, anti-Kerry speeches on street corners, as Kerry needs all the help he can get. (Bush: 47%; Kerry: 47%)

Florida (27 electoral votes) - The Dems want it bad, and for a while it looked like they had it, but Kerry has has been hit very hard here in the past weeks...his former 7% lead is now a 4% loss. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 44%)

Iowa (7 electoral votes) - Kerry once seemed to have it, but his support is draining by the week. Now, his former lead is not a lead at all. (Kerry: 48%; Bush: 48%)

Michigan (17 electoral votes) - Formerly in the blue column, it can now be called an official swing state, although Kerry still has 3% on Bush. I blame the RNC, the Swift vets, and possibly frostedbutterflies. (Kerry: 45%; Bush: 42%)

Minnesota (10 electoral votes) - Kerry's down to a 1% lead, and he's dropping by about 1% every week. (Kerry: 47%; Bush: 46%)

Missouri (11 electoral votes) - It was a deadlock tie for a long time, but Bush is finally gaining some ground. (Bush: 46%; Kerry: 42%)

Nevada (5 electoral votes) - It's leaning slightly right, and has been for a while. (Bush: 44%; Kerry: 42%)

Ohio (20 electoral votes) - Lots of votes to rack up here, and Bush's lead has taken off and reached 6% after dipping in the past weeks. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 42%)

Pennsylvania (21 electoral votes) - In July, Kerry led by 1%. In August, Kerry led by 12%. Now, Bush leads by 2%. Apparently Republicans here only vote every other month. (Bush: 47%; Kerry: 45%)

Tennessee (11 electoral votes) - The latest poll is the first one in a long while that doesn't show Tennessee as in the red column. Can Kerry do what Gore never could? (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 46%)

West Virginia (5 electoral votes) - A state that's just barely left, and is inching lefter. (Kerry: 48%; Bush: 44%)

Wisconsin (10 electoral votes) - The latest poll shows Bush up by 2%, but by the time I post this, that probably will have changed already. This state flip flops more than any politican ever could. Toxic, Ikki, statistics show you might want to just start yelling at random people on the street to vote for Kerry. And Red, I'd give you the same advice for Bush, but I'm willing to bet you do it already. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 46%)

So, now you guys know where to get to work. While we're on electoral college trends, I just thought I'd point out other states where noteworthy stuff is going on (states in red signify an 8%+ Bush lead; states in blue signify an 8%+ Kerry lead):

Arizona (10 electoral votes) - Just 3 weeks ago, Kerry had pulled within 3% of Bush. However, perhaps due to the influence of John McCain, Bush's lead has spiked once more. Still, a Dem take-back is not out of the question.

Hawaii (4 electoral votes) - It's still firmly in the blue, but Kerry's once iron hold has began to relax lately.

New Hampshire (4 electoral votes) - Kerry has always had the lead here, but it has only turned into a double-digit one in the past couple weeks.

New Mexico (5 electoral votes) - Kerry has a consistent lead here, but the GOP is pushing very hard. Gore took this state by only 366 votes in 2000 (a narrower margin than Bush took Florida) and Bush wants revenge.

North Carolina (15 electoral votes) - Perhaps because of Edwards, this traditionally right-wing state only had Bush ahead by 3% 3 weeks ago. The RNC seems to have got it back where it normally resides, however. Wow, I just realized, that's pretty much Arizona's exact story...Kerry supporters in NC, I sympathize.

Virginia (13 electoral votes) - It could almost qualify as a swing state before Nader got banned from the ballot. Left-wing hope remains!

Currently, things aren't looking so great for Kerry. However, things are constantly fluctuating. There are 8 weeks to go, and 4 weeks ago, the electoral college seemed to love Kerry. 8 weeks ago, Kerry looked like he had no chance whatsoever. You never really know.

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Originally posted by Ikki14Reed:
You can say THAT again.

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Yeah, I've noticed that whenever an article regarding the election is written, the location is always listed as someplace is Wisconsin. It seems to be replacing D.C. as the nation's capital.

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On a cool note: It seems like my city's going to have an 80% turnout rate!

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Awesome! See, it's working.

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Wisconsin (10 electoral votes) - To put it elegantly, both candidates are campaigning the crap outta this state. This poll shows it as dead even, but others have Bush with a 1-4% lead. (Kerry: 45%; Bush: 45%)

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You can say THAT again.
There are signs EVERYWHERE, including in my school; both candidates are here RIGHT now; people are recruiting high school students to help campaign/encourage people to vote; recordings are calling houses; and the medias are clogged with political messages.

On a cool note: It seems like my city's going to have an 80% turnout rate!

Alright, there's a week to go, and these are the final stats I'm posting before the election. As you can see, it's still very close, but Bush is maintaining a slight lead:

Florida (27 electoral votes) - Bush has a percent on Kerry here, and a recent poll done by the Associated Press has Bush with an even higher lead. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 47%)

Minnesota (10 electoral votes) - All within the course of 2 weeks, Kerry broke a near dead-even tie to gain a double-digit lead, then lost it and then some. It all goes to show you anything can happen, and fast. (Bush: 47%; Kerry: 45%)

New Hampshire (4 electoral votes) - Bush is shown as being up by one, but numerous other pollsters have logged Kerry as the one with the lead. It's probably not worth spending too much time trying to figure out, as it's only 4 votes. (Bush: 47%; Kerry: 46%)

New Mexico (5 electoral votes) - Bush has gained another percentage point here. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 46%)

Ohio (20 electoral votes) - It's being called "the new Florida", and as of now, almost every poll has it going just slightly to Kerry. I wonder, does the slogan mean Kerry will win the state's majority but Bush will take the 20 votes? (Kerry: 48%; Bush: 47%)

Wisconsin (10 electoral votes) - To put it elegantly, both candidates are campaigning the crap outta this state. This poll shows it as dead even, but others have Bush with a 1-4% lead. (Kerry: 45%; Bush: 45%)

If that seems like an alarmingly low number of Swing States, that's because it is. Each candidate has made a lot of headway in three or four states (states in red signify a 5%+ Bush lead, states in blue signify a 5%+ Kerry lead):

Arkansas (6 electoral votes) - Bush is bouncing between a 1% lead and a 7% lead here, and right now it's at 6%. In any case, Kerry has yet to gain even the slightest lead here, so Arkansas will remain one of those states where 45% of the population's opinion is invalid.

Iowa (7 electoral votes) - Out of nowhere, Bush has his highest lead here yet, but Kerry isn't giving up the battle yet; he has more campaign stops scheduled already.

Lousiana (9 electoral votes) - Bush has re-solidified it. I looked up Lousiana's voting record, and it turns out it's voted against the rest of the South on more than one occassion. I gotta give Lousiana more credit.

Maine (4 electoral votes) - Kerry has re-captured his former lead here, and if history repeats itself, we'll see this lead hold until well past November 2.

Michigan (17 electoral votes) - Kerry's lead is around 7% now, meaning Bush is ever-so-slowly whiddling it down. He has more campaign stops scheduled ahead here, but he'll have to work very fast to win this state over by election day.

Missouri (11 electoral votes) - The effects of the debate are wearing off, but the Dems never really expected to take it anyway. Oh well.

Nevada (5 electoral votes) - After leaning slightly towards Bush for months, Nevada has decided to tip a little more to the right. Bizarre, as Kerry has been touring here and Bush hasn't. Maybe Ikki's theory about people responding positively to the candidate who campaigns/advertises less is accurate.

New Jersey (15 electoral votes) - Once again, it's narrowly back to Kerry. I love this state, because it's kind of like the bizarro-Arkansas; Bush wants it, but he can't have it!

Pennsylvania (21 electoral votes) - Kerry's rolled in the big guns: a Clinton tour. Turns out all this state really wanted was a public speaker who doesn't speak in monotone or mispronounciate self-invented words...and can you blame it?

It seems to me that Kerry's smartest course of action at this point would be focusing exclusively on Ohio, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. All three are within his reach, and if he takes all three, he wins. Unfortunately, if he uses this strategy, two out of three states won't cut it. But when it comes to the electoral powerhouses, it's either those three or Florida, and Florida makes me nervous.

The 50 states break down like this:
Strongly Supporting Bush (19 states, Bush leads by 10%+):
Alabama - 9 electoral votes
Alaska - 3 electoral votes
Georgia - 15 electoral votes
Idaho - 4 electoral votes
Indiana - 11 electoral votes
Kansas - 6 electoral votes
Kentucky - 8 electoral votes
Louisiana - 9 electoral votes
Mississippi - 6 electoral votes
Montana - 3 electoral votes
Nebraska - 5 electoral votes
North Dakota - 3 electoral votes
Oklahoma - 7 electoral votes
South Dakota - 3 electoral votes
South Carolina - 8 electoral votes
Tennessee - 11 electoral votes
Texas - 34 electoral votes
Utah - 5 electoral votes
Wyoming - 3 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 153

Leaning Towards Bush (9 states, Bush leads by 5.0%-9.9%):
Arizona - 10 electoral votes
Arkansas - 6 electoral votes
Colorado - 9 electoral votes
Iowa - 7 electoral votes
Missouri - 11 electoral votes
Nevada - 5 electoral votes
North Carolina - 15 electoral votes
Virginia - 13 electoral votes
West Virginia - 5 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 81

Strongly Supporting Kerry (9 states and D.C., Kerry leads by 10%+):
California - 55 electoral votes
Connecticut - 7 electoral votes
Hawaii - 4 electoral votes
Illinois - 21 electoral votes
Massachusetts - 12 electoral votes
New York - 31 electoral votes
Rhode Island - 4 electoral votes
Vermont - 3 electoral votes
Washington - 11 electoral votes
Washington, D.C. - 3 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 151

Leaning Towards Kerry (7 states, Kerry leads by 5.0%-9.99%):
Delaware - 3 electoral votes
Maine - 4 electoral votes
Maryland - 10 electoral votes
Michigan - 17 electoral votes
New Jersey - 15 electoral votes
Oregon - 7 electoral votes
Pennsylvania - 21 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 77

The Swing States (6 states):
Florida - 27 electoral votes
Minnesota - 10 electoral votes
New Hampshire - 4 electoral votes
New Mexico - 5 electoral votes
Ohio - 20 electoral votes
Wisconsin - 10 electoral votes

well okay...sorry to disrupt your painful process of thinking and collaborating your surely-inquisitive ideas...but she/he has a point so i'm going to do a little experimenting and post my own topic! it's called "YAY OR NAY abortion and gay rights..." you can add whatever you want i dont care!!! just go and try it out...please

well...just so ya'll know...I EXIST! hehe, sorry just wanted to put that out in the open, we really should start getting groups of people that agree on things sorta club like and we should have debates! that would be awesome we could schedule them and stuff..but on to the candidates...TWO WRONGS(ie:kerry and bush) DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT!!!!
thank you, peace out

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Of course not, it's just that you only have 7 posts. It took until my 150th post before people really started noticing I was around.

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Really? All I did was make a board on my first day here in which everyone argued.

Well, I do have new stats to post, although they're probably flawed. According to Gallup, just over the past few days, Bush had a big surge in popularity which half-reversed itself within 24 hours. As a result, things are probably a little better for Bush than this poll shows. But this is the most comprehensive poll I know of involving a state-by-state analysis, so I'm sticking with it. As usual, there's a few jokers in the deck of our 50 states. Here's the Swing States, as of 10/19/04:

Arkansas (6 electoral votes) - It turns out it's not over here. In just a week, Kerry gained 7%, making it anyone's game here once more. (Bush: 46%; Kerry: 45%)

Florida (27 electoral votes) - Kerry has evidently pulled even, but with such threats to him present as Nader, Bush's brother, confused seniors, and killer renegade hurricanes, I'm still pessimistic. (Bush: 48%; Kerry: 48%)

Iowa (7 electoral votes) - Kerry's slim lead has dissolved, and it's now in deadlock. (Kerry: 47%; Bush: 47%)

Maine (4 electoral votes) - There's no change here, primarily due to the fact that Maine pollsters have decided to take a collective nap. (Kerry: 49%; Bush: 47%)

Missouri (11 electoral votes) - The numbers here just won't budge. (Bush: 49%; Kerry: 47%)

Nevada (5 electoral votes) - Ditto. (Bush: 50%; Kerry: 46%)

New Hampshire (4 electoral votes) - Ditto again. (Kerry: 47%; Bush: 47%)

New Jersey (15 electoral votes) - Kerry seemed to have it back, but his lead has collapsed. Get your act together, NJ! (Kerry: 46%; Bush: 46%)

New Mexico (5 electoral votes) - The state with the narrowest gap between the candidates in 2000 is gonna be narrow again. (Bush: 47%; Kerry: 46%)

Ohio (20 electoral votes) - Things are shaping up even more for Kerry here, and as liverpool pointed out, this state is crucial. This is the state Kerry has made the most campaign stops in in the last week. Are we getting pissed yet, Bogey? (Kerry: 49%; Kerry: 45%)

Pennsylvania (21 electoral votes) - Both candidates gained a bit here, but Kerry's 2% lead stands. (Kerry: 49%; Bush: 47%)

Wisconsin (10 electoral votes) - Kerry has gained 7% in a week. Good job, guys. Keep it up! (Kerry: 47%; Kerry: 43%)

And the other interesting states (states in red signify an 8%+ Bush lead, states in blue signify an 8%+ Kerry lead):

Arizona (10 electoral votes) - Just to tease all of us here, Bush's lead has dropped below 10%. It's painful, because it's pretty hopeless for Kerry, yet it'd be so sweet if he won here.

Colorado (9 electoral votes) - Bush has gained 9%, putting him at a 9% lead. Ouch.

Michigan (17 electoral votes) - After this former swing state experienced a surge of popularity, Bush undertook the formidable task of taking it back. He's paired heavy advertising with frequent campaign stops, and they're sort of working, as Kerry's former 12% lead is down to 8%.

Minnesota (10 electoral votes) - Kerry not the only broke the tie here, he took off running with it. My bad, Iceland, your state's not a s1ut after all.

Here's what all of this means on the broader scale:

Strongly Supporting Bush (19 states):
Alabama - 9 electoral votes
Alaska - 3 electoral votes
Georgia - 15 electoral votes
Idaho - 4 electoral votes
Indiana - 11 electoral votes
Kansas - 6 electoral votes
Kentucky - 8 electoral votes
Mississippi - 6 electoral votes
Montana - 3 electoral votes
Nebraska - 5 electoral votes
North Dakota - 3 electoral votes
Oklahoma - 7 electoral votes
South Dakota - 3 electoral votes
South Carolina - 8 electoral votes
Tennessee - 11 electoral votes
Texas - 34 electoral votes
Utah - 5 electoral votes
Virginia - 13 electoral votes
Wyoming - 3 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 157

Leaning Towards Bush (5 states):
Arizona - 10 electoral votes
Colorado - 9 electoral votes
Louisiana - 9 electoral votes
North Carolina - 15 electoral votes
West Virginia - 5 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 48

Strongly Supporting Kerry (9 states, D.C.):
California - 55 electoral votes
Connecticut - 7 electoral votes
Hawaii - 4 electoral votes
Illinois - 21 electoral votes
Massachusetts - 12 electoral votes
New York - 31 electoral votes
Rhode Island - 4 electoral votes
Vermont - 3 electoral votes
Washington - 11 electoral votes
Washington, D.C. - 3 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 151

Leaning Towards Kerry (5 states):
Delaware - 3 electoral votes
Maryland - 10 electoral votes
Michigan - 17 electoral votes
Minnesota - 10 electoral votes
Oregon - 7 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 47

The Swing States (12 states):
Arkansas - 6 electoral votes
Florida - 27 electoral votes
Iowa - 7 electoral votes
Maine - 4 electoral votes
Missouri - 11 electoral votes
Nevada - 5 electoral votes
New Hampshire - 4 electoral votes
New Jersey - 15 electoral votes
New Mexico - 5 electoral votes
Ohio - 20 electoral votes
Pennsylvania - 21 electoral votes
Wisconsin - 10 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 135

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Originally posted by bella123:
poor, poor nader..i mean, he's tried so hard and no one even thinks to support him...he's not even in any of the debates nor is he mentioned..i dont know about you but my concience is speaking to me....

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All right, I'll post some Nader stats. A recent Gallup poll shows he carries 2.6% of the popular vote when the options Bush, Kerry, Nader, or Undecided are given. Amazingly, when only the options Bush, Kerry, or Undecided are given, Kerry gains 2.5% and Undecided gains .1%. Nader is currently carrying 0 states and 0 electoral votes, and he's still a dick.

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Sure, nobody says I rock*sniff* do my opinions stink or something?

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Of course not, it's just that you only have 7 posts. It took until my 150th post before people really started noticing I was around.

no, dear, you have me wrong. I do NOT support him whatsoever i'm just trying to put you in perspective..how would you feel if you just got ignored and you tried so hard for so many years? honestly, i would be mad. Sure, nobody says I rock*sniff* do my opinions stink or something?

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Originally posted by ICELAND:
Yeah right, Arizona makes Minnesota look like a nun. What's that little foursome with Colorado, and New Mexico all about anyway? Guess the Mormons from Utah really got to you...and just look at your northwest corner...it's like it's trying to penetrate Nevada. Obviously Nevada isn't too impressed.

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I came up with a pretty good response, but deleted it in a decision to try to let this poor thread maintain some sort of dignity. But to address your question, let's just say that Nevada is very satisfied with the work we're doing up there.

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Originally posted by toxicfox:
Anywoo, Aguagon, have I told you that you rock recently?

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Nope, but it's always good to hear it. And you rock as well.

-----"""Perhaps it is immoral, but it sounds oh so fun. I mean, I know Minnsesota is a total s1ut, but somewhere deep down I envy it."""

Yeah right, Arizona makes Minnesota look like a nun. What's that little foursome with Colorado, and New Mexico all about anyway? Guess the Mormons from Utah really got to you...and just look at your northwest corner...it's like it's trying to penetrate Nevada. Obviously Nevada isn't too impressed.

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come on wisconsin you can pull through.... go Kerry go kerry go kerry....

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Someone in Wisconsin with sense. Thank goodness.

Thanks for the advice, Aguagon. I'm already screaming Kerry, and I might be helping with a MoveOn thingie here in a few days. I'm so glad I have public speaking this semester, every speech I'm giving has something to do with politics- in fact, I'm giving a speech on the debates tomorrow. Wahoo.

We do have a lot of ads here, its unbearable. And the yard signs, too- there are so many, its like a friggun' army.

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wait...is anyone here for the other candidate..i haven't been paying attention at all to him....poor, poor nader..i mean, he's tried so hard and no one even thinks to support him...he's not even in any of the debates nor is he mentioned..i dont know about you but my concience is speaking to me....

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Woah! -cough gag vomit faint- Someone wants sympathy for Nadar? Too many people support him if you ask me. He has no chance of winning the election, we're not ready to elect green party yet. But he wont give up until he croaks. He's just taking away votes from Kerry- Why else do the Republicans love him so much?

Anywoo, Aguagon, have I told you that you rock recently?

wait...is anyone here for the other candidate..i haven't been paying attention at all to him....poor, poor nader..i mean, he's tried so hard and no one even thinks to support him...he's not even in any of the debates nor is he mentioned..i dont know about you but my concience is speaking to me....

Aguagon: Thanks a lot for your help. Even though you did make me sound a little..slow. I can see how everyone here is bias but just take a look on the debates...each one is lying, and each one is COMPLAINING!! i mean, they both are____, but really, try opening your eyes(to those who havent) and slip of that bias outer shell...I'm just getting into this politic stuff and it's COOL!! i just need to get into the viiibbee..
Curlz ITC

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Originally posted by bella123:
plus..what about these 3 states...who are they leaning towards...or does anyone care?

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I only listed the swing states and the states where more interesting ordeals were taking place, and if you look, you can find how Maine is doing in my latest post. But since you asked so nicely, I'll outline for you where every state stands (as of October 12) by dividing them up into 5 categories and putting them in alphabetical order within them:

Strongly Supporting Bush (20 states):
Alabama - 9 electoral votes
Alaska - 3 electoral votes
Arizona - 10 electoral votes
Georgia - 15 electoral votes
Idaho - 4 electoral votes
Indiana - 11 electoral votes
Kansas - 6 electoral votes
Kentucky - 8 electoral votes
Mississippi - 6 electoral votes
Montana - 3 electoral votes
Nebraska - 5 electoral votes
North Dakota - 3 electoral votes
Oklahoma - 7 electoral votes
South Dakota - 3 electoral votes
South Carolina - 8 electoral votes
Tennessee - 11 electoral votes
Texas - 34 electoral votes
Utah - 5 electoral votes
Virginia - 13 electoral votes
Wyoming - 3 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 167

Leaning Towards Bush (4 states):
Arkansas - 6 electoral votes
Louisiana - 9 electoral votes
North Carolina - 15 electoral votes
West Virginia - 5 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 35

Strongly Supporting Kerry (10 states, D.C.):
California - 55 electoral votes
Connecticut - 7 electoral votes
Hawaii - 4 electoral votes
Illinois - 21 electoral votes
Massachusetts - 12 electoral votes
Michigan - 17 electoral votes
New York - 31 electoral votes
Rhode Island - 4 electoral votes
Vermont - 3 electoral votes
Washington - 11 electoral votes
Washington, D.C. - 3 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 168

Leaning Towards Kerry (4 states):
Delaware - 3 electoral votes
Maryland - 10 electoral votes
New Jersey - 15 electoral votes
Oregon - 7 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 35

The Swing States (12 states):
Colorado - 9 electoral votes
Florida - 27 electoral votes
Iowa - 7 electoral votes
Maine - 4 electoral votes
Minnesota - 10 electoral votes
Missouri - 11 electoral votes
Nevada - 5 electoral votes
New Hampshire - 4 electoral votes
New Mexico - 5 electoral votes
Ohio - 20 electoral votes
Pennsylvania - 21 electoral votes
Wisconsin - 10 electoral votes
Total Electoral Votes: 133

As you can see, Bush has strong support in Idaho while Kerry has strong support in Washington. As you can also see, it's still anybody's game. If you're in one of the 12 swing states or one of the states that's only "leaning towards", your vote counts.

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can i have some arguments on BOTH sides of the candidates?

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While I promise I'm providing accurate stats, I am a known Kerry supporter. If you're looking for debate on the candidates or issues, go to another thread. This one is meant to stay purely statistical. And I apologize for letting my bias seep through. On second thought, no I don't. God, Bush sucks.

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Originally posted by liverpoolrox1017:
I live in a swing state (Ohio) and in the past no President has ever been elected without winning Ohio.

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Cool, you can give us the inside scoop then. How are things looking in Ohio?

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Originally posted by ICELAND:
I'm confused...does this mean these states like to spontaneously switch their dates? How immoral.

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Perhaps it is immoral, but it sounds oh so fun. I mean, I know Minnsesota is a total s1ut, but somewhere deep down I envy it.

I'm confused...does this mean these states like to spontaneously switch their dates? How immoral.