A syndicated columnist has got me rethinking this whole Pledge of Allegiance thing, and it has nothing to do with the phrase "Under God."

Does anyone know who wrote the pledge?

Francis Bellamy - a bloody socialist, though there's not much difference between that, a Marxist, or a Communist.

Anyway, I haven't agreed with a government official leading a prayer before public meetings, nor have I supported forcing a person to say the pledge.

But historically, from the Robyn Blumner/St. Petersburg Times column (syndicated nationally), the pledge was an oath to the State, and the hand-over-heart move was a redesigned Nazi-Hitler salute.

I'm all for the love of my country, but I cannot, in principle, ever support the forced "patriotism" that we see now in schools; especially from a pledge written by a socialist.

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And a minister of God

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Not really surprising, seeing as Christianity has a lot similarities with Communism and Socialism, in particular more with Communism.

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Francis Bellamy - a bloody socialist

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And a minister of God

Yeah, and nobody should be taught the theory of relativity because it was thought up by a socialist.

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This is partially true, but you fail to add in the necessary parts to get full understanding of it. A true "communist" society has no government; it is solely based on idealism. There would be no dissent because everybody agrees on the same ideals and the state would, as Marx put it "melt away."
A lot of the problems with the misinterpretation of Communism arise when people separate the Communist general philosophy of idealism and the political system of Communism, which cannot work because the Communist political system is dependent on the philosophical system.

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Right, but my analysis of it is that we should at most recognize that extreme commitment to the ideal of Communism/Marxism is what motivates these people to stifle dissent. In reality though, since everyone following Communism freely is only an Ideal, we should just concentrate on the real-life carrying out of Communism as a totalitarian ideology.

BTW: Thank you for mentioning that particular case, although my main comment was that I hadn’t heard of anyone today being forced to recite it (before Joey mentioned the Texas legislature anyway).

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Marx' ideas were from the Communist Manifesto, not the Socialist Manifesto.

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God, do I have to spell this out to you again. The Communist Manifesto is not meant to explain how Communism should be carried out; it's meant to give a VERY basic outline of thinking. I have mentioned this to you several times; the book that explains how Communism should run is DAS CAPITAL, again NOT the Communist Manifesto. Also a lot people seem to forget about Friedrich Engels whenever they mention Communism or Socialism. This is very peculiar seeing as the Communist Manifesto was Co-written by Engels.
Again Joey, do not try to use a term you so clearly do not understand.

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Fascism, communism, socialism...all have one root: collectivism.

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Almost all systems of government have an essence of collectivism to them; what do you think our system of government is based off of; gee the social contract certainly doesn't seem like a collectivist idea. Let’s face it human society in general is based on collectivism. Libertarians argue with a collectivist mindset, they argue that "individualism is the best for everybody," that sounds like collectivism to me and is somewhat oxymoronic now that I think of it.

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Socialists don't squash consent?

I beg to differ.

Two words: political correctness.

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Political correctness isn't particularly just a socialist trait.
Furthermore I have grown continually tired of the extreme right *****ing about "Political Correctness."
Where the right is erroneous is the fact that they fail to make the distinction between Political-Correctness and restricting free-speech. Let's take for example when somebody says the word n.i.g.g.e.r. Joey treats the disagreement towards the person who said the word as an act of trying stifle that persons free-speech. What many of these people, who are criticizing the people that use such words as n.i.g.g.e.r, is you SHOULDN'T say that word, rather then you CANT say that word; there is a very big difference.
Also I find it very funny how you ***** about political-correctness, yet when one bashes Christians, you get very defensive and “PC.” Let’s look to the More Hate From the Christian Right board http://boards.youthnoise.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=742299645&f=265299255&m=5034092292&p=5
What did Joey say “Barrio, for the love of God, will you stop with the "hate" ???
Put up or shutup my friend.

"Either you agree or you disagree. Either an American or a Communist."

Shut up, Joey, that's a completely one-dimensional analysis, and if you weren't a dirty Texan psychotic, you would realize that.

Socialists don't squash consent?

I beg to differ.

Two words: political correctness.

If that's not squashing dissent, then what do you call it?


Fascism, communism, socialism...all have one root: collectivism.

So it's all the same through and through once you get down to the nitty gritty of it.

In Texas, the legislature required that all students in school recite the Texas and American flags.

Marx' ideas were from the Communist Manifesto, not the Socialist Manifesto.

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First off, as far as I know, no one is being forced to salute the flag.

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I believe a case back in 1962, Abington Township v. Schempp, will show the error in this idea. In particular look to Justice Clark's statement.

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Does anyone know who wrote the pledge?

Francis Bellamy - a bloody socialist, though there's not much difference between that, a Marxist, or a Communist

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This was a point I mentioned awhile ago, which is way I found irony, and still do, in the whole pledge debate. They added the phrase "under god" to fight "communism," yet at the same time used a pledge that was written by a socialist.
And furthermore a person who can barely tell the difference between a Communist and a Socialist really has no place in saying there isn't much difference.


Here is the board where I mentioned this.
http://boards.youthnoise.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=742299645&f=455299255&m=7494092212#3254025892

And here is a site for further information on the pledge.
http://history.vineyard.net//pledge.htm

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This explains the existence of “Social Democracies” likes France, the Netherlands, etc. Communists however do not tolerate any dissent. Hence the existence of the USSR, PRC, Communist Cambodia, etc.

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This is partially true, but you fail to add in the necessary parts to get full understanding of it. A true "communist" society has no government; it is solely based on idealism. There would be no dissent because everybody agrees on the same ideals and the state would, as Marx put it "melt away."
A lot of the problems with the misinterpretation of Communism arise when people separate the Communist general philosophy of idealism and the political system of Communism, which cannot work because the Communist political system is dependent on the philosophical system.
And this is for Joey, do not try and misconstrue this as me supporting Communism, I'm simply making sure people use truthful and ACCURATE information when they criticize something.

First off, as far as I know, no one is being forced to salute the flag.

Secondly, to say that "the hand-over-heart move was a redesigned Nazi-Hitler salute" is only half-correct. What happened was that the original salute fell out of favor after the Nazis came to power and adopted a similar salute. It should also be noted that though people pledge allegiance to the flag & state, they are pledging allegiance to the Republic for which it stands (which is obviously different from a totalitarian state).

Lastly, there is a difference between a Socialist and most Communists. A Socialist believes in heavy taxes, "redistribution of wealth", etc. but also allows Political freedoms to exist.

This explains the existence of “Social Democracies” likes France, the Netherlands, etc. Communists however do not tolerate any dissent. Hence the existence of the USSR, PRC, Communist Cambodia, etc.