I have never been a meateater with the occasional exception of chicken. I have never liked the taste of meat. Recently, though, I have found myself questioning my decision to eat chicken. I'm just curious but what exactly gives humans the right to kill and eat animals? Why are we anymore entitled to life than they are? I am not looking for an arguement. I can't think of an answer to either question. I can no longer justify eating meat myself. How do you justify it?

hahahaha...ok clpo...I don't agree with you but i apologize if i twisted your words are missunderstand you....now that we had that nice little argumentative moment....hows the weather over there? btw, i really really can't help but wonder where you live in WA. muahahahahaha...and not for stalkerish purposes, but just cuz like dude, there is like a 1/6,000,000 chance we are nieghbors! LOL

Look, I don't care if you hate me for what I believe. I can deal with it. But please, please don't twist my words into something they're not or make assumptions about me based on what you think you know about me.

Now, I don't feel like having to justify myself, when it's painfully obvious neither of you understand completely. So I'll be on my merry apathetic way, and leave you to sob over dead strangers.

quote:

you care about fetuses getting killed, but not live people? And you care if kids gets chlamydia, but not if they're vaporized by a nuclear warhead.

quote:

Did you pull those connections out of your ass, or what?

and while I'm at it, might I add that those were great connections darth.....we just didn't realize that due to your stupidity clpo you don't five a fuck about aborted babies or disease either!

quote:

the fetus hasn't been born, and thus has no rights

that may be true, because society has made it have to be that way...but thats a load of shit! just because it is inside of something, doesn't mean it automatically doesn't feel pain...ok off topic...

quote:

I really don't care if kids get STDs because that means they were too stupid to use a condom.

you are a dick. ever heard of rape? or condoms breaking?

quote:

I'll care enough to know what's going on, but that's where I stop.

then read a newspaper! get off YN if that is how you feel. you have said some pretty intelligent things (duh, look at my signature) but this is shit right here.

Nice. Did you pull those connections out of your ass, or what? I never said I care about fetuses getting killed. In fact, I'm pro-choice. I believe the mother's right to choose far outweighs the fetuses right to life (especially considering the fetus hasn't been born, and thus has no rights). And I really don't care if kids get STDs because that means they were too stupid to use a condom.

When I meant they affect me, I meant it in the sense that if someone close to me had an abortion, I'd probably feel something (possibly concern, but I'm not sure), and I'm in a serious relationship right now, so that's why premarital sex concerns me. I don't plan on waiting, so I have to defend that position.

As for it not affecting me if millions died, it's a hard thing to wrap one's mind around. It took me two years to cry over 9/11. And the only reason I even did was the damned sad music the documentary was playing. I didn't know anyone involved. Nobody close to me had anyone involved. It's hard to care when it's so far away and barely affects you. Or maybe that's just me. I've got more important things to worry about than a bunch of complete strangers getting killed in a foreign country. I'll care enough to know what's going on, but that's where I stop.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:
To debate mostly. Besides, many issues on YN do affect me and the people I care for: abortion, ...premarital sex, etc.

So, you care about fetuses getting killed, but not live people? And you care if kids gets chlamydia, but not if they're vaporized by a nuclear warhead.

And how the hell would the country getting wiped out in a war not affect you?

To debate mostly. Besides, many issues on YN do affect me and the people I care for: abortion, same-sex marriage, religous intolerance, premarital sex, etc.

quote:

If a whole country was wiped out in a devastating war, I probably wouldn't shed a tear. Not my problem. My concerns include only what will affect me and my loved ones.

then what the fuck are you doing on youth noise?

quote:

Hmm, Koko the gorilla seemed to understand it somewhat, since she would sign to herself and name things (and her kitten too). Am I wrong?

I'm merely repeating what numerous scientists have said before me.

quote:

Like what?

Google has failed me once again. I can't find any nutrients in particular, but I know I've heard that there are a few vitamins and minerals (or something along those lines) that can't be found naturally in fruits, grains, or vegetables, which is why meat is one of the food groups. People have survived for eons by eating the flesh of animals. It's a necessary part of a balanced diet. ...now I sound like a cereal commercial.

quote:

Treat other sentient beings the way that you would want to be treated.

You were doing quite well up until this point. Animals are not sentient creatures. Humans are the only known sentient beings on Earth. If psychology can somehow prove otherwise, perhaps I'll reverse my stance. But then again, perhaps not. The cow that provided me the hamburger I had yesterday at lunch was not my dog, nor was it my friend. It was a cow. I have a terribly hard time digging up the compassion to care what happens to a cow that was raised for the sole purpose of becoming my hamburger. It's not going to happen. To me, an animal is an animal. No more, no less. It is not a human, it is not sentient, it is no more deserving of my sympathy than a fly. It simply exists. What happens to it is not my concern, nor will it ever be. It may sound cold and uncaring to you, but that's the way I am. I have a hard time even caring about the murders I hear about on TV. If a whole country was wiped out in a devastating war, I probably wouldn't shed a tear. Not my problem. My concerns include only what will affect me and my loved ones. Slaughterhouses and foreign wars (among other things) don't fall under that category.

So if I show a near-utter lack of caring for distant human suffering, what makes you think I would care for the suffering of animals I'll only meet once they're on a plate? Don't get me wrong, I would never burn a cat to death. I'm not in the business of being cruel for cruelty's sake. But I fail to see why the deaths of a number of cows should move me to give up meat.

That was probably a lot more deep and sobering than I meant it to be. The main point is that I will continue eating meat regardless of anything I hear. I've been desensitized to the suffering of domesticated food-producing animals. Blame that on society, if you will.

quote:

Animals can be taught to communicate, but they lack the mental functions to understand exactly what they're doing.

Hmm, Koko the gorilla seemed to understand it somewhat, since she would sign to herself and name things (and her kitten too). Am I wrong?

quote:

Animal flesh contains nutrients not found elsewhere, and we're not all rich enough to afford pills to compensate.

Like what? And who said I was rich?

quote:

Slewinca, you've proven time and again that you know what you're talking about. You've also shown quite well that animals can and do suffer. What you have yet to do effectively is tell us why we should care. I don't. And I doubt any sob story you come up with will make me rend my clothes in grief for the poor animals that are used as products. I simply don't care.

Thank you for the compliments
Getting people to care if they don't...well that's a hard thing to do. For example, I could tell you to care about human fetuses until my face turns blue (or in this case, my fingers ), but that wouldn't change your position on it. (I'm not saying I'm a pro-life person, I'm undecided on the whole issue, it was just an example)
How about this:
Care like you would if it was happening to your dog, your relative's dog, your friend's dog, your neighbor's dog, etc. Care like you would if it was happening to your friend, to yourself. Because animals can feel pain and suffer just like you or I can, and they all want to avoid pain and suffering. Like the golden rule; Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Treat other sentient beings the way that you would want to be treated.
Um, how did I do?

quote:

I burned a cat to death once. It meowed pretty loudly.

quote:

I eat meat because I LIKE to eat meat.

Hey, I used to like to eat meat too, now I like to eat faux meat Seriously, I'm pretty sure that most people who are vegetarian/vegan today weren't raised that way. They made the switch when they found out about the cruel treatment of animals (and the environmental effects as well) and how easy it can be to do so.
(For me, the hardest part of going veg wasn't with food, it was with my parents!)

I eat meat because I LIKE to eat meat. Humans are at the top of the food chain, so they get their choice of foods. Maybe if I was raised vegetarian I would be okay, but I have a hard enough time giving up meat on Fridays during lent...I just don't like all of the veggie dishes. Having chicken in my salad is just more appetizing to me than vegetables and fruit.

I do have a problem with raw meat, especially chicken and turkey when it still looks like the animal...so I just don't cook the stuff...

i hit a illegal when he was running across the street, thats kind of like what we are talking about, animals right? dont worry though i gave him 20 bucks so he could take the bus to the hospital and have your tax dollars pay for the injury.

Scan-da-luuuuuuhhz!

quote:

I burned a cat to death once. It meowed pretty loudly.

are you fuckin serious?

That explains a lot, speaking from a psychologist's point of view.

Was that supposed to be funny?

I burned a cat to death once. It meowed pretty loudly.

quote:

Animal communicators would disagree

Animals can be taught to communicate, but they lack the mental functions to understand exactly what they're doing. It's a fundamental difference between humans and other animals. There was a rather nice article on the biggest differences in the most recent issue of Discover.

quote:

but it's [eating meat] not something that's necessary for most of advanced human society.

Animal flesh contains nutrients not found elsewhere, and we're not all rich enough to afford pills to compensate.

Slewinca, you've proven time and again that you know what you're talking about. You've also shown quite well that animals can and do suffer. What you have yet to do effectively is tell us why we should care. I don't. And I doubt any sob story you come up with will make me rend my clothes in grief for the poor animals that are used as products. I simply don't care.

Your understanding of animal rights philosophy is a bit superficial. You only see the anti-suffering part of it. What it's really about is stopping the cruel exploitation of non-human animals, and respecting their interests. Think about it, predator animals in the wild do not capture and exploit their prey, they take what they need and let the rest go. Predators are (for the most part) not gluttonous.
Humans, however, take animals and keep them captive and exploit them for our own tastes/desires. The animals in the wild can do as they please, but the animals kept captive among human society cannot do this (for the most part anyway).

If you don't mind, I'll use quote from a book (Animal Liberation, actually) that better explains the interests part of this (the author, by the way, is responding to the famous Jeremy Bentham quote which you loathe; "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"). :

"The capacity for suffering--or more strictly, for suffering and/or enjoyment or happiness--is not just another characteristic like the capacity for language or higher mathematics. Bentham is not saying that those who try to mark "the insuperable line" that determines whether the interests of a being should be considered happen to have chosen the wrong characteristic. By saying that we must consider the interests of all beings with the capacity for suffering and enjoyment Bentham does not arbitrarily exclude from consideration any interests at all--as those who draw the line with reference to the possession of reason of language do. The capacity for suffering and enjoyment is a prerequisite for having interests at all, a condiction that must be satisfied before we can speak of interests in a meaningful way. It would be nonsense to say that it was not in the interests of a stone to be kicked along the road by a schoolboy. A stone does not have interests because it cannot suffer. Nothing that we can do to it could possibly make any difference to its welfare. The capacity for suffering and enjoyment is, however, not only necessary, but also sufficient for us to say that a being has interests--at an absolute minimum, an interest is not suffering. A mouse, for example, does have an interest in not being kicked along the road, because it will suffer if it is."

So your analysis of animal rights philosophy, which you think is "suffering is bad", really only barely skims the surface.

quote:

Human society, and the interactions between HUMANS is an artificial construct. We have agreed, for the most part, that the unjustified killing of a human being is murder.

Animal cruelty laws are something else that has resulted from this artificial construct. Many of our interactions with animals are in an artificial construct (I can't imagine that a caveman would have a snake or a tarantula as a pet, for example), so can't we have an artificial construct that benefits the animals who happen to live in it too?

quote:

In nature, the fetus does not have a right to life. In human society, it does.

What, pro-choicers no longer exist? Not everyone is pro-life, you know. And in the human society of today, abortion (most kinds anyway) is legal.

quote:

Animals lack the phyisical capacity and mental ability to communicate with us.

Animal communicators would disagree

quote:

This is why I take exception to higher primates and the like. They have a fairly strong sense of conciousness.

Which other animals do you include in "the like"? Dolphins? Pigs?

quote:

Eating meat is NOT an act of barbarism.

Fine, I can see that, but it's not something that's necessary for most of advanced human society. Like I said before, if killing a fetus can't be allowed in the artificial construct of human society, why can't killing an animal living in the same artificial construct as humans be that way as well?

quote:

Since the cow otherwise would be open to be killed by predators in nature, then there's nothing wrong with us eating it.

Just so you know, there are no longer any wild cattle (except for the gaur of India and perhaps feral cattle from domestic species), the last ones (called aurochs, by the way) were wiped out in 1627. The only ones left are the ones we keep and exploit for their bodies and fluids, so that's kind of a moot point.

quote:

quote:
The way most people eat meat today is closer to a carrion eater than to a true carnivore. Most of society doesn't eat the flesh of freshly killed animals, they eat the flesh of animals killed days, weeks, even months previously.

This is totally irrelevent.

Sorry about the randomness of that one, I was having a bunch of random thoughts on this at the time I was writing that and I was trying to fit them all in.