if we told bush there was oil resources in Darfur, then they would go there, and that is just a little sad, that the Bush admin. doesn't care about anything but oil, and money.

It's so sad to come to this board and see that the first post was made in 2003, and we're 2007 today. Over 4 years have passed by, and still, nothing much has changed. It is so easy to feel hopeless about this situation.

What really is there for one to do? We can raise awareness, but if everyone has the same hopeless feeling, it doesn't solve anything. IT discourages me, thinking about Darfur, becasue it means us, as a people, every single inhabitant of this Earth have not found away, in this day and age, to end such a tragic crime as genocide. We might hear about Darfur once in a while on the news, or read about it now and then on the paper, and we feel terrible. Then we forget it, it slips out of our minds and we think about our iPods, and our favourite tv show or the next party. I'm not condemning anyone for doing this, as I myself am guiltly, I just find it incredibly sad that 4 years after someone posted about this situation, there has been no change. I think about the children who have known no other life than living in a refugee camp, and I mourn for our society. What can be done? Why isn't it being done?

Welcome to YN, realworlder. In the future, please try to condense all your writing to one post. To keep the "flow of the boards" going, posting many times in succession on one topic is something we try to limit.

quote:

Originally posted by peccadillos28:
It's true, there are a lot of regulations, but what else if the UN good for? nothing. sometimes they basically seem like the league of nations and i hate that the Sudanese gvt can just be like, yyyeeeeeah, we dont really want you to come in...no thanks.
and we listen to that? wtf?
but i just got an email today saying something about a ceasefire among other things. check it out www.savedarfur.org <sign up for the mailing list, it's sweet.

And i think spreading the word is vital cause ive only known about Darfur's issues since late 05' and I went and told people in my high school-most adults i talked to had no idea what Darfur even was. people need to be informed so they can care. just like i was. SPREAD IT!

Indeed.
Only diff between the league and UN is America's participation.
Haha, what participation you ask?
Exactly.
Darfur is essentially a ethnic cleansing, the Sudan government will do nothing.
We need political pressure.
Spread info to people, even if a fraction of them mutter in discontent, politicans love an angle to seem angelic over and they're hopefully be discussion in the government and maybe they'll do something.

quote:

Originally posted by freedomordeath:

quote:

But right now our resources are spent fighting the war on terrorism.

That is a pathetic excuse. If we're already in debt for fighting a war more than half the world (and our own country) doesn't believe we should be fighting, why shouldn't we be humanitarian?

Because there's potential oil involved. The war on terror really ain't much of a war when the prosecutors are hypocritical.

we shud be doing something to save the people in darfur...we shud just leave iraq alone and bring our troops home...we have no bizness doing anything in iraq...sudan needs serious help, this isnt the 1930's or the 194's we can change whats happeneing now...what's happening in darfur will spread, and appeasement is not the way...

Very interesting questions Holliewood. And just to be a bit more informative on this issue, here is how the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide define genocide:

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

If any of you are interested in the whole document, here is a link to it.

Hey guys...
I've been taking a Genocide and Human Rights course this semester and its been really interesting...which also reminded me of YN and how this thread has brought up alot of good questions. I can never stay away from this place lol...

Anyway, there have been really interesting points brought up in my class and we end up talking alot about how the term genocide is defined. Its actually a really controversial question when it comes to what genocide might include and nobody ever seems to be able to agree on one definition, which is kind of the reasoning behind why the U.N. rarely makes a move when it comes to horrible atrocities going on, such as those in Darfur. The U.N. has a set definition of genocide, but it still doesn't satisfy many and this causes alot of confusion when leaders try to decide whether a certain event falls under their definition. I know that probably seems completely ridiculous for leaders to just be arguing about a definition instead of just doing something, but thats the way it is unfortunately.

Anyway, I just wanted to know everyone's ideas as to what they would define genocide as. What would be included... for instance, would it have to include murder, does it have to be on a mass scale, do the people committing the crimes have to have some kind of power, and how do you differentiate genocide from war?

Just some interesting questions to put out there. I was just curious as to what people on here thought.

Guys, this months J1C like I had mentioned before is donating to a Save Darfur organization. If you care about this cause please click as many times as possible.

WE ONLY HAVE UNTIL THIS THURSDAY BEFORE IT ENDS!

We are currently at 61 percent and running out time.

Here is the link once again if you are interested in helping:

http://www.youthnoise.com/page.php?page_id=2335

Thank you.

Guys, don't forget to keep on clicking for the J1C of this month.

Remember that the donation goes to the Save Darfur Coalition.

No problem.

And I encourage everyone who can to go. From what information I could get, it would really help a lot of people.

Thanks Cap.

Okay, I know I posted this Save Darfur Tour before, but they have new dates for those of you who are interested. 100% of profits will be dontated directly to the The Save Darfur Coalition.

Save Darfur Tour

World Briefing | Africa
Sudan: U.N. Warns of Threat to Darfur Aid
By REUTERS
Published: January 18, 2007

United Nations aid agencies warned that their operations in Darfur would collapse unless the government and the rebels took immediate steps to end violence that has increasingly been directed against aid workers. The agencies — which include the World Food Program, the High Commissioner for Refugees, Unicef and the World Health Organization — said in a statement in Khartoum, the Sudanese capital, that their aid workers in Darfur had been “holding the line for the survival and protection of millions” but that “that line cannot be held much longer.” The statement said that 12 relief workers had been killed in the last six months and that access to civilians last month was the lowest since large-scale aid operations began in 2004.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/18/world/africa/18briefs-darfuraid.html

For those of you that were wondering what more you could do to help. YN is donating to the Save Darfur Coalition on this months Just One Click. All you have to do is click as many times as you can. Here is the link:

http://www.youthnoise.com/page.php?page_id=2335

Click away. And thank you for continuing to post on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Holliewood:
If its not doing that, then there clearly needs to be a change.

I get what you're saying, but what gives anyone the right to effect that change? Who decides when a government needs to be removed or changed? Someone could just as easily think that allowing people to have a say in what their country does is a bad thing.

At any rate, I don't see what we can do. Solving this militarily is impossible. Negotiating has proved pointless. What else is there to do that will have a reasonable effect?

quote:

Didn't someone once say Hitler will always come up in an online debate? Anyways, Hitler invaded other countries. By attacking other sovereign states, he opened himself up to retaliatory attacks by those states. War is one thing (because it involves more than one country), genocide (the kind constrained within the borders of one) is another.

I know but look at what he did to his own people. Is it right for the rest of the world to know whats going on and sit back and not do anything because "heaven forbid its another country"? I know what you are talking about when it comes to the importance of having sovereign countries and keeping the order, but in some cases its just hypocritical to say that for there to be order we have to let other governments do whatever they want to their people. Government is supposed to be set down for the good of mankind, not to destroy it. If its not doing that, then there clearly needs to be a change. And in situations such as this one, it should be obvious. I mean, government is not some supernatural, perfect creation. Anyone can get in it and manipulate a country if they really want to.

quote:

These things don't always get things done, either. Our government especially has shown itself very capable of ignoring its citizens (case in point: Bush going ahead with his Iraq plan regardless of opposition from Congress and the public).

Before we deployed troops to Iraq, Bush did have the public's support. And if Congress did not approve, then by law Bush would have had to bring them back within a few months. And I wouldn't say that public pressure and international pressure haven't had an influence on the stance of the war. Why have I heard so much in the media lately about wanting to bring the troops back and Bush taking responsibility and yadayadayada...
Anyway, my point is, take away the pressure thats coming outside of the world leaders and we would probably still be going strong without any intention of taking our troops out. Don't underestimate the public, especially when it becomes international.

quote:

I'm not saying nothing can be done; I'm merely pointing out that expecting the world to be a rosy place where everyone can fix everything is a bit naive. Shit happens, and there are times when it happens and no one has any toilet paper.

Hey, I'm just trying to be positive. Nothing gets done with negativity.

quote:

Hitler was pretty much running his own sovereign government. Should no one have done anything?

Didn't someone once say Hitler will always come up in an online debate? Anyways, Hitler invaded other countries. By attacking other sovereign states, he opened himself up to retaliatory attacks by those states. War is one thing (because it involves more than one country), genocide (the kind constrained within the borders of one) is another.

quote:

No public pressure, no media attention, no one demanding something be done.

These things don't always get things done, either. Our government especially has shown itself very capable of ignoring its citizens (case in point: Bush going ahead with his Iraq plan regardless of opposition from Congress and the public).

I'm not saying nothing can be done; I'm merely pointing out that expecting the world to be a rosy place where everyone can fix everything is a bit naive. Shit happens, and there are times when it happens and no one has any toilet paper.

the problem is that the UN doesnt really have an army. i think its bullshit about sudan not letting us in.
the US should NOT go in just us, but the world HAS to care. this is genocide, not a joke. i feel like, because its africa, people are like, yeah well thats the way its always been and the way its supposed to be. bull shit.
if the UN pressures sudan we can get shit done but the world does not care.

quote:

Such power could be easily abused, so there are policies in place to keep such abuse from happening (imagine China convincing the security council that democracy is really bad so the UN should invade democratic countries in the name of keeping the peace...far-fetched, but not something anyone wants to happen).

Except that the difference between this situation and the one you described is that democracy isn't out to strip away human rights. There are basic human rights that if they are being violated gives the U.N. the right to take action. And this is another one of those things that make me mad. If its beaurocracy that is keeping the world from helping others, then thats the saddest and most pathetic thing I have ever heard. If the human race is smart enough to be able to create an atom bomb (of course its kinda stupid at the same time but thats a different story) then maybe we should be spending more of our time and focus on how to help people who are being murdered, raped, and tortured by their own "sovereign" governments. Hitler was pretty much running his own sovereign government. Should no one have done anything? And what is the use of protecting this sovereign country if that means its own people are going to be wiped out? The government is supposed to be for the people, am I right?

And I know this situation seems hopeless and I'm seeing alot of people resort to negativity. "Spreading the word isn't going to stop all of this"... Well, it may seem like that, but could you imagine only the world leaders knowing about this? No public pressure, no media attention, no one demanding something be done. Every little bit helps, especially when little can be done.