Tiscarr- I think its great that you're so concerned (sp) about Darfur. But from now on, be concerned with CAPITAL LETTERS!!!

this really makes me upset. like a lot. how can people have such a disregard for human life. it makes me feel sick to my stomach. it makes me want to curl up in the corner and cry. but you know what? that accomplishes nothing. nothing at all. we need to take a stand and educate others about this. we can't just sit back and let this happen. we have to try and fix this. its not right, not right at all.

I'm happy to see that people are beganing to take more interest in this. Whether people are for or against it it't generation attention so I'm accoplishing my purpose for this thread: Spread Awarness. For those who want to learn more I believe there will be something about it this sunday on 60 Minutes.

saturnmoth007 or w/e ur name is you are sorely mistaken. everyone can go online right here just go to the home button and send a letter to their senators and reps and tell them to please vote for the darfur bill currently in congress we as civilians can also help relief efforts in darfur. The problem there is that the UN needs to send troops there and thats what the UN is supposed to DO. we should be saving third world countries instead of killing and fighting with countries that have people with homes and actual roofs and husbands and moms and health care!! so, please send a letter today and help in darfur! :-)

... thanks for that completely useless and hypocritical rant. Next time you want to go off on nobody in particular for educated themselves about whats going on in the world, take a step back and look at how stupid you sound.

you all sicken me. we as civilians in america can do nothing for those in darfur, im sorry to say. You want something to get done? Global boycott of the sudanese econy... or simply invade and take military action. Those are your choices. I dont understand why people think that sitting around thousands of miles away at their computers complaining how bad the genocide is is going to help.

Dont rely on the UN. That corrupt organization is far gone... lost in corruption to be of any real help.

These people you want to bring down aren't fucking diplomats. Standing up and holding hands all around the world isnt going to scare them into stopping the genocide. They are war-hardened, ruthless men doing something they truly believe is right whether it is out of hate or nationalistic pride. Force. force is how you will stop them.

Ironically, all you liberals out there who want us to do something about Darfur.... you should get ur positions together so you dont look like confused morons. WHAT? INVADE A FOREIGN COUNTRY? INTERFERE IN THEIR AFFAIRS???? BLASPHEMY!!!!!! IT IS NONE OF AMERICA'S BUSINESS TO IMPOSE OUR MORALS UPON THEM ::cough:: Iraq.

Idiots. why dont you stop crying about darfur? Getting the message out is awaring anybody of anything. Psychopaths and violence will ALWAYS riddle the world. We learned diddley from the Holocaust. THere's still genocide afoot is there not?
And then you raise money for these damns charities to send to Darfur. do you honestly think that money does any good? It goes to a bunch of generals and higher-ups while their people starve and die of thirst. dont believe me? Look up one of the most welldocumented cases of this corruption in Nigeria.

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Hey, don't jump on me for the UN's inability to do anything useful. I'm just doing the reporting.

I'm not jumping on anything. I was just clarifying. The attempts to do something about this situation have not been effective in the least. This started up in 2003 and its been almost 4 years. If it takes 4 years and you have still not successfully convinced a country to stop killing its people, then you are obviously going in the wrong direction with this. I would really love it if all of a sudden some sense was knocked into these people, but the world does not work like that. You gotta look at what the Sudanese government wants. Its pretty clear that they do not want non-Muslim Africans living in their country and having the same rights as the rest of the country. They respond by setting up a military in order to exterminate them. Now all these non-Muslim Africans want is to be able to live in that country and have fair and equal rights. They responded by forming rebel groups to fight against the government. Its a war between a government power and a small percentage of its people. I've been following this issue for almost a year and its very clear that the Sudanese government has no intention of stopping or giving these people fair treatment. They have successfully stalled the UN for nearly 4 years and they will stall as long as they can until someone decides to stop them. This is a drastic situation, and if its drastic measures that need to be taken in order for this to stop then I say yes, I advocate it. Unless you have a better idea that hasn't been tried yet? But don't think that using force to stop this from going on means the same thing as completely destroying one side or the other.

Hey, don't jump on me for the UN's inability to do anything useful. I'm just doing the reporting.

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The African Union is about to pull out by the end of this year because no progress is being made. What does that tell you? The only thing the UN has done is attempt to get both the rebel groups and the Janjaweed to agree to a ceasefire.

Is there some sort of alternative? If a cease-fire or agreement of some sort is out of the question, that means the only other option is to completely destroy one side or the other. If you can't get them to agree, then drastic measures would have to be taken. Is that what you're advocating?

I meant that it should be done for the 'right' reasons, and that when it becomes political (republican vs. democrat..etc), things usually don't get done. And now, more than ever, something needs to get done. We should unite under the common responsibility for other human beings, rather than political obligation. I know it sounds corny, but it's true. Everything as some sort of political undertone which almost always ensures the original idea becomes nothing more than an idea.

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Again, just as long as it is not to make a political point.

See, thats the whole problem. Everyone is so worried about not making a political statement, that no one is concentrating on what to do about the thousands of people who are getting killed by their own government. And I would really like to see other countries besides the U.S. step up and take some responsibility instead of sitting back and discussing philosophy over tea and crumpets.

Well the current "statement" they're making is that they're ok with the killing of thousands of innocent people.

I'm currently taking a course on genocide and Darfur has been a major topic of discussion. It's clear that the United States has failed to fulfill it's moral obligation to attempt to relieve that problem.

However, as for preventing a political movement, it's hard for the United States to do anything without making a statement.

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But when I say that other countries have a moral obligation, maybe I should call it a human obligation, is that when there is an injustice in this world that is so obvious, there is no excuse good enough for not taking action.

Exactly, I think that we as humans should take some level of responsibility for other human being's rights, etc. Again, just as long as it is not to make a political point.

amnesty~ I agree with what you mean about ignorance on these issues. Last year I had no idea that this was even going on and when I found out, I was shocked how many others also had no idea, and still don't. But when I say that other countries have a moral obligation, maybe I should call it a human obligation, is that when there is an injustice in this world that is so obvious, there is no excuse good enough for not taking action. I know that many people may scoff at this and say that other countries can use the excuse of "moral obligation" to do horrible things, but then you gotta ask yourself what exactly they are basing their "morals" on. I'm not talking about different ideals and beliefs, I'm talking about basic human rights. There is such a concept of this, the UN is very aware of this, and yet still there is hesitation to do something when the occasion arrises.

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Many people I've talked to have said that little or nothing is being done about Sudan, but I found out today that this really isn't the case. Apparently, the African Union has had a force of 7000 in Sudan trying to keep the peace.

The African Union is about to pull out by the end of this year because no progress is being made. What does that tell you? The only thing the UN has done is attempt to get both the rebel groups and the Janjaweed to agree to a ceasefire. They have tried it several times and every time has failed. The AU's job is to oversee the peace agreements and make sure they are followed. What happens when both sides of the conflict just don't give a shit? Basically, nothing significant has been done to stop the fighting. Its upsetting that this has been going on so long because of politics. The Sudanese government refuses to allow UN forces in and says that if this happens then they will regard them as foreign invaders. A war will break out if the UN acts and that is what they are afraid of. And Sudan obviously doesn't want this issue to be resolved because they are behind the whole thing. Their scare tactics are working and everyday more and more innocent people are dying because of it.

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The UN, on the other hand, either won't or can't act without Sudan's approval

Wait, The UN can't act on something unless the people doing it admits its wrong? If they thought it was wrong the would stop!

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but apparently can't because Sudan won't let them.

That's ludicrous; they've done it in the past to the best of my knowledge (so no, I don't have sources for that statement).

Many people I've talked to have said that little or nothing is being done about Sudan, but I found out today that this really isn't the case. Apparently, the African Union has had a force of 7000 in Sudan trying to keep the peace. The UN, on the other hand, either won't or can't act without Sudan's approval, which seems rather odd to me. They have plans to send in a force of 20,000, but apparently can't because Sudan won't let them.

Here are the articles I found:
Link 1
Link 2

Desynthesize. But I think a problem (equally bad, maybe worse)is ignorance. I know a lot of people in my classes, and even in the school, don't know about any issues. I mean none. Today I was asked what FGM was--and not because she brought it up--she heard me talking about it. People need to know about what is happening in Africa, esp. Darfur. I don't agree with moral-obligation based arguments usually--i think they're excuses for discrimination and igorance, but this [Darfur] goes beyond moral obligation. People need to be informed, and something needs to be done. And for once, not to make some sort of political point, it needs to be done to deliver the innocent victims.

I understand your logic clpo and the thing is, thats what I have the biggest problem with. We try to be open-minded and logical thinkers, but sometimes it takes us absolutely nowhere. I think this is an example of it. Relativism, where the matters of right and wrong are completely ambiguous. What might be wrong in one culture could be right in another. But I think this is a really dangerous way of thinking and leaves us with a world full of people who don't want to get involved in something because it is not their own issue.

I think what we need to be looking at is basic human understanding. Do people, no matter what race, nationality, ideals, etc, like to be hunted down and killed? Do human beings generally think its a good thing to be raped? Or for their families and children to be executed right in front of them? ...and just because they are of African decent? I would have to go with no. When I'm talking about moral obligation, I'm saying that every human being on this planet knows what pain and suffering is and they have seen injustice (even on the smallest level) and when they hear or see something like Darfur going on, they know that those people are in a situation that no one would ever want to be in. And what it all comes down to is whether or not you are going to do something to help these people have a better life. And by better I mean a chance to live without fear of being murdered or raped everyday of their lives. Whether you think its right or not to try and save the day is one thing, but would you feel better with yourself knowing you did all you could to help these people or knowing that you just sat there at the sidelines and watched the unfortunate event take place. By trying to over rationalize this situation (or any for that matter), we are turning more into computers that are becoming detached from the world than human beings who understand suffering and are willing to do something about it.

The problem with moral obligation is that any country could justify an invasion of another country based on some sort of moral obligation. Imagine a country run by a dictator next to a country run as a democracy. Now, the democratic country could invade the other country to free its citizens, and they would be morally obligated to do so if the dictator was making his citizens suffer. But just so, couldn't the dictatorship invade the democracy in order to free the citizens from freedom? It's twisted, yes, but that country could see themselve as being morally obligated to do just that. People have different opinions on what's right and what's wrong.

Now, I'm not saying we should just ignore Sudan. However, I am saying that it's not necessarily our place to take the role of the cavalry, riding in to save the day. I'm not quite what we should do, but then, it's not my place to decide.