Ok, I was at lunch today when my friend got sent to the office by the vice principal for wearing a fake lipring. Which is understandable. BUT before she left my friend, we'll call him joe, said "Hey, wait. I have freedom of speech, right?" he meant it jokingly, but the VP told me, and I quote, "You are children, and as a child you have no freedom of speech, didn't you learn that in history?" So my friends and I are planning to wear tape over our mouths on monday saying, "we have no freedom of speech," I think, even though we are youths, we still have rights to say what we want. I need help adressing this issue, any comments would be great!

Defensiveness is a direct product of attack. So yes there would be.

I sense defensiveness all around! Suprise, surprise...

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Originally posted by yogore:
I did read it and resent the assumption that I didn't. I've been on here a long time. I would've left by now if I didn't read the things I responded to.

Resent away. The problem is that you did not address my point that according to, oh, centuries of precedent, students have historically not enjoyed the same rights as other citizens. And there is a reason for that. The educational system is not an environment where we are allowed to come and go and do as we please. It is very much a regimented, regulated environment and will always remain so.

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Originally posted by yogore:
Who says that you cannot change the law? Laws are changed all the time. All you need to do is gather support for your cause.

Okay, let's assess the likelihood of whatever local school board jurisdiction punk is located in suddenly lifting their ban on lip rings. Based on some small-time student protests. When Supreme Court precedent, national, and state law are on the board's side. Even the ACLU begrudgingly admits that dress codes are a part of the public education deal.

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Originally posted by yogore:
Don't get sarcastic with me. It's all about the snowball effect. First, there are rules stopping lip rings, next there are free speach infringements and then it proceeds to move on from there.

And what do you base this ludicrous assumption on? Dress codes have been around for a long, long time. So has Tinker v. Des Moines. We are protected from such infringements, a point I originally made. But the other point I made was that "Right to Dress" isn't included among those protections.

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Originally posted by yogore:
Look at the circumstances, that's a YN provided avatar, not one he uploaded. Maybe he chose it because he believes in the anarchy philosophy, but that's doubtful considering how widely it is used separate from it's symbolic meaning.

I don't care how widely it's used or if God Himself provided the thing. You cannot deny that it does send out a specific message, and it is one of dissatisfaction with authority. How I interpret such a message is my own problem to deal with, a notion ensconced in this statement:

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Originally posted by moi:
That's what using that symbol says to me. It's not being pretentious. It's not trying to "read" him. It's being honest. You use that symbol because you wish to send a message to the world. That's my interpretation.

We can dither all we want about whether or not punk intended that as his meaning. But that's how I, an interested observer, view such usages.

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Originally posted by yogore:
I know Hydrok well enough to assume ther superintendant was the victim.

Yes, the keyword would be assume. You don't actually know.

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Originally posted by yogore:
What exactly is a waste of time by making people aware that schools are preventing people from wearing lip rings?

The fact that if they're in that school system, they should already be aware that wearing lip rings is illicit? I assume the "victim" here knew full well that wearing a lip ring was not allowed, and yet he or she persisted in doing so. Not as an act of civil disobedience, but sheer ignorance, be it knowing or otherwise. Especially considering the original post stated

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Originally posted by punkwithacause:
Ok, I was at lunch today when my friend got sent to the office by the vice principal for wearing a fake lipring. Which is understandable.

Understandable? Then it wasn't something the vice principal just made up to nail the guy.

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Originally posted by yogore:
To solve big problems first you have to solve small problems. So he's getting started by protesting this, perhaps it's just practice for protesting something "worthwhile".

Really? Because my assessment of the situation is that the guy is blowing some off-hand remark made by a vice principal way out of proportion.

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Originally posted by punkwithacause:
...but the VP told me, and I quote, "You are children, and as a child you have no freedom of speech, didn't you learn that in history?" So my friends and I are planning to wear tape over our mouths on monday saying, "we have no freedom of speech"...

If the kid really cares about more than just drawing a scene, he could print out the opinion in Tinker, lay it on the V.P.'s desk with a note attached saying "Didn't you learn that in history?"

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Originally posted by Meagan87:
...tearing apart stupid things like the way things are worded...

Semantics, word choice, and phrasing are an integral part of any argument, and I fail to see how critiquing these things can be separated from a holistic attack on the argument. All we have are words, and how they are put together forms our perception of them. The word choice that one uses in labeling something has a huge effect on how it is received. As I assume this is directed at my complaint over the choice of the word injustice, permit me to explain. Inherent in the use of the term injustice is the violation of rights. However, my point was that students do not have such rights in a school environment, so labelling not being allowed to wear a lip ring an injustice is going a bit too far. That was a response to a point, not some trivial nit-picking to elicit a rise.

You're right, there is a fair bit of snide commentary being lobbed back and forth (and I certainly do not deny taking part in that), but there is just as much valid debate over points relating to our rights in a school setting. To deny otherwise is to miss the forest for the trees.

Oh this is good, explain to me how a Superintendant loses his job via a high school senior without some support from people much more powerful.

This is actually very close to the point, no one in power is going to support some punks attitude with a basic school dress code rule, your never going to lobby support from people who matter to change that.

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A lot of people, not just on this thread, although that is where I first noticed it, attack the way an argument is formulated, instead of looking at the content of the argument.
What do you mean by that exactly? Who are you implying is attacking how arguments are formed?

Please note that this is a problem all over, not just on this thread.

Someone's paranoid

Everyone's nit picky snide little comments and going line by line tearing apart stupid things like the way things are worded are the things that are driving me crazy, and that is the only type of argument that has been going on on this thread for the past several posts...go back and read some of them and THEN attempt to argue this one with me...

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Originally posted by Meagan87:
Haha...everyone ignored my post...but what else is new? Anything of content gets thrown out...

Well, I believe semantics are as much a part of content as anything. If yogore chooses to label not being allowed to wear a lipring an injustice, it is very much critiquing the substantive argument of his case by demanding a reassessment of his word choice. I pressed this point by asking how it could in any way be construed as a curtailing of this person's rights, as they are nonexistent (or at the very least extremely limited).

Furthermore, if yogore wishes to make asinine comments about how I present my opinion in the matter, I reserve the right to represent my case and ask that he address the actual points I made, specifically that students have limited rights to freedom of expression. I went a bit further to state that the whole protesting over a lip ring and a remark thing is a bit daft.

I explained the various tangential remarks made about previous posts and why I chose to include them in my original post. But at the same time, I indeed addressed what little content yogore did include in his riposte and asked that he go back and include a response to my other points, not just my remarks.

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yogore, do you honestly believe that not being allowed to wear a lip ring is an injustice?

Yup.

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If you bothered to actually read my argument,

I did read it and resent the assumption that I didn't. I've been on here a long time. I would've left by now if I didn't read the things I responded to.

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It's the law, and it's not something that you're going to be able to change.

Who says that you cannot change the law? Laws are changed all the time. All you need to do is gather support for your cause.

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Yeah, because we all know it's just a small step from dress codes to barcodes.

Don't get sarcastic with me. It's all about the snowball effect. First, there are rules stopping lip rings, next there are free speach infringements and then it proceeds to move on from there.

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Explain to me how using a symbol intended for use by people who desire to eliminate all forms of hierarchical authority says anything other than "Screw the man, I can do whatever the hell I want."

Look at the circumstances, that's a YN provided avatar, not one he uploaded. Maybe he chose it because he believes in the anarchy philosophy, but that's doubtful considering how widely it is used separate from it's symbolic meaning.

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but come on, Newton, I think you can handle it.

Your attitude is a little annoying.

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Schools can and do enforce dress codes, so you're wasting your time by pulling some stupid stunt that's probably going to get you in more trouble than it's worth.

Nothing is a waste of time if it gets you closer to your goal. What exactly is a waste of time by making people aware that schools are preventing people from wearing lip rings?

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If punk was protesting something like the Darfur genocide, our dependence on foreign oil--you know, something that is actually worth raising a stink about--I'd be a little more encouraging. But no. He's protesting over a lip ring and a snide remark.

To solve big problems first you have to solve small problems. So he's getting started by protesting this, perhaps it's just practice for protesting something "worthwhile".

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Perhaps before you call hydrok a jerk and pretend like you actually know that the superintendent deserved to keep his job, you'd learn the details behind what happened.

I know Hydrok well enough to assume ther superintendant was the victim.

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A lot of people, not just on this thread, although that is where I first noticed it, attack the way an argument is formulated, instead of looking at the content of the argument.

What do you mean by that exactly? Who are you implying is attacking how arguments are formed?

Haha...everyone ignored my post...but what else is new? Anything of content gets thrown out...

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Originally posted by yogore:
Thinking like that is exactly the problem. There are plenty of injustaces in high school. You should not write off other people's problems.

Okay, yogore, do you honestly believe that not being allowed to wear a lip ring is an injustice? I usually reserve injustice for, I don't know, something a little more egregious. The funny thing is that it's not actually a violation of said friend's rights. If you bothered to actually read my argument, you would realize that you don't have the same rights to Freedom of Expression in a scholastic environment. It's the law, and it's not something that you're going to be able to change.

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Originally posted by yogore:
As soon as you let small injustaces go, the big ones are soon to follow.

Yeah, because we all know it's just a small step from dress codes to barcodes.

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Originally posted by yogore:
You're so pretentious.Stop trying to "read" him. If everyone who displayed the anarchy symbol was a complete rebel this world would be in complete disarray.

I'm sorry, I don't really think it's pretentious to believe that if you're going to use such a ludicrous symbol, you should at least ascribe to its beliefs. That's what using that symbol says to me. It's not being pretentious. It's not trying to "read" him. It's being honest. You use that symbol because you wish to send a message to the world. That's my interpretation. Explain to me how using a symbol intended for use by people who desire to eliminate all forms of hierarchical authority says anything other than "Screw the man, I can do whatever the hell I want."

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Originally posted by yogore:
And no one likes an ass who believes they're above everyone else

I don't. I know it's such a pain to actually read things for content other than how they're presented, but come on, Newton, I think you can handle it. My point reduces to this: Schools can and do enforce dress codes, so you're wasting your time by pulling some stupid stunt that's probably going to get you in more trouble than it's worth. I presented actual Supreme Court cases that detail your rights as a student. I also opined that in the grand scheme of things, this is not something worth fighting for. Protesting something as minor as this only says to me that you have nothing better to do with your time and you're only trying to draw attention to yourself. Can't speak for others, but that's what it says to me. If punk was protesting something like the Darfur genocide, our dependence on foreign oil--you know, something that is actually worth raising a stink about--I'd be a little more encouraging. But no. He's protesting over a lip ring and a snide remark. Give me a break.

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Originally posted by yogore:
That's not "making a difference" that's showing you're a jerk. Making a difference requires making the world a better place in some way.

Really. Funny how you just happen to know the details surrounding the case, yogore. Perhaps before you call hydrok a jerk and pretend like you actually know that the superintendent deserved to keep his job, you'd learn the details behind what happened. And that, my friend, is what we call being pretentious.

There's something I just noticed that was kind of bothering me...

A lot of people, not just on this thread, although that is where I first noticed it, attack the way an argument is formulated, instead of looking at the content of the argument.

I've been analyzing arguements in my LSAT prep...trust me on this one.

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Sure yogore, whatever, whats the biggest injustice a high school student could possibly worry about...

Thinking like that is exactly the problem. There are plenty of injustaces in high school. You should not write off other people's problems.

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Think about it, he's proud to be a punk, there's nothing wrong with that, I have a couple punk friends, I play in a punk rock band, big deal.

It's not the word, it's how you use it, like he's subordinate.

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Well I dont know if we can solve that problem but I think you can equate it with the nature of gay people, must be born that way.

That's a ridiculous correlation.

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And what exactly do you know... someday I'll give you the number to my old high school superintendant after I find out where he moved to... after he lost his job because I had him chased out.

That's not "making a difference" that's showing you're a jerk. Making a difference requires making the world a better place in some way.

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Originally posted by yogore:
As soon as you let small injustaces go, the big ones are soon to follow.

Sure yogore, whatever, whats the biggest injustice a high school student could possibly worry about... it's that juvinille way of thinking that every little thing is the end of the world that screws high school students over. They don't understand that usually regulations come from above the principal or whoever they have every day contact with.

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look punk

You don't talk to people like that.

I do when it is what they are. Think about it, he's proud to be a punk, there's nothing wrong with that, I have a couple punk friends, I play in a punk rock band, big deal. The funny thing is that most punks arn't anarchists... Most are actually smart enough to realize that you do damage inside the system. (Rock The Vote, punkvoter.com etc...)

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You're so pretentious.Stop trying to "read" him. If everyone who displayed the anarchy symbol was a complete rebel this world would be in complete disarray.

Now who's being pretentious?

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And no one likes an ass who believes they're above everyone else

Well I dont know if we can solve that problem but I think you can equate it with the nature of gay people, must be born that way.

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And ofcourse, you are the only one that knows how, even though you haven't really made any difference with your voice.

And what exactly do you know... someday I'll give you the number to my old high school superintendant after I find out where he moved to... after he lost his job because I had him chased out. I'm sure he'll disagree with you... or maybe how I got to be on the school board as a Senior in high school, completely unheard of. But alas, you dont know what your talking about so it doesn't really matter.


But again I would like to re-iterate to my punk friend here, that punk is about a lot more than anarchy, and you really should watch SLC Punk, it gives you a punks perspective on how the system works, and how to do damage.

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There are many greater injustices in the world than your friend's not being able to wear a fake lipring at school and your vice principal's making some flippant remark about your not having Freedom of Speech

As soon as you let small injustaces go, the big ones are soon to follow.

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look punk

You don't talk to people like that.

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I'm not sure what it is, but using the "Anarchy" symbol as your avatar is a lure to me. It just oozes self-righteous "Screw The Man, I can do whatever the hell I want." Truth be told, however, you can't.

You're so pretentious.Stop trying to "read" him. If everyone who displayed the anarchy symbol was a complete rebel this world would be in complete disarray.

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Nobody respects a little punk-ass kid who thinks he/she knows everything.

And no one likes an ass who believes they're above everyone else

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See this site is all about using your voices, the problem is that almost nobody here actually knows how.

And ofcourse, you are the only one that knows how, even though you haven't really made any difference with your voice.

what kills me is that it's not like you dont have a say, but there is a process for everything, look punk, go watch SLC Punk, watch the whole movie, you might be suprised... "You can do a lot more damage in the system than outside it"

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Originally posted by Hydrok:
See this site is all about using your voices, the problem is that almost nobody here actually knows how.

Hydrok, it's becoming a shame to see that we're starting to actually agree on things.

I'm not sure what it is, but using the "Anarchy" symbol as your avatar is a lure to me. It just oozes self-righteous "Screw The Man, I can do whatever the hell I want." Truth be told, however, you can't.

You absolutely have the Freedom of Speech, Expression, what have you, at school. (Tinker v. Des Moines) But the school does reserve the right to determine a time and a place for that expression, limit the content of that speech, and even quash speech and expression if it is considered an "undue disruption of the educational process." (Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier)

You can protest all you want. You can be a totally kewl, rebellious little prick about it. Or you can just accept the facts as they are and live your life. There are many greater injustices in the world than your friend's not being able to wear a fake lipring at school and your vice principal's making some flippant remark about your not having Freedom of Speech. Besides, I know how these little stories work: You get in a situation that is disagreeable to you, someone makes an offhand remark, and suddenly it becomes a very threat to your life and person. We don't know the context, your v.p. could have been making a joke. All we have is your subjective viewpoint.

I reamed out markwarner4president about this on another thread. Just don't be that kind of liberal. Nobody respects a little punk-ass kid who thinks he/she knows everything. Some minor perceived injustice in high school isn't worth fighting for. Trust me.

Hmm I never had my freedom of speech violated in school... that might be in part due to the fact that I know how to use it in a respectful, appropriate manner, as opposed to being a self centered punk.

See this site is all about using your voices, the problem is that almost nobody here actually knows how.

I think that we have the freedom of speech and just because we are younger than adults , we should still voice our opinion on how we feel abou things!! It's not fair to say that we have no freedom of speech, when infact we have brillant minds and lots of views to voice! Arn't we going to be the "adult" someday??>>