so since there are so many "abortion is wrong/murder" threads I thought I'd start one that's not only pro-choice but pro-killing babies! so discuss! and if you're against abortion piss off, you already have a ton of threads dedicated to discussing why abortion is evil, this is to discuss why it's great!

Another point I forgot to mention (sorry to double post but it won't let me edit) When you refer to an embryo as a "blob of cells" you realize of course that you are a blob of cells as well. I don't see why you are acting like a an embryo is disqualified as human because it is a blob of cells.

I hate to apply Godwin's Law, but I suspect Wolfie is Hitler reincarnated.

Seriously though, that's fucking horrible.

You never cease to amaze me. Just when I think you're as extreme as it gets, you throw a curveball. It's absolutely stunning. I think I have a new favorite:

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It's called cleansing the undesirables.

A close second is when you compare pro-life to terrorists.
I sincerely hope you read back over your posts and realize how extremist your views are. In all honesty, people can generally sense something wrong with a "cleansing undesirables" ideology.
Most pro-choice wouldn't ally with that.

Now in all seriousness, for tradition's sake, I'll go ahead and point out some major flaws with the arguments someone might buy. (for some I'll have to fill in the gaps in order to get them to fit)

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Notice how all of our (good) inventions came out after the 70's.

well roe v wade came out in 1973. So I'm guessing you're claiming this has a direct effect on the advancement of science. The first major flaw with this is that I would say some of the greatest inventions/discoveries of the century would include vaccines and penicillin (and other antibiotics). Polio vaccine was developed in 1955, penicillin was discovered sometime in the 30s or 40s.
But I guess these aren't good right? This is caring too much about saving lives.
I would spend more time discussing this but I don't think you really mean it.

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Also, it has been proven by countless studies that abortion lowers the crime rate.

Ok, despite what Time magazine may tell you, this can NOT be proven. There is no scientific mechanism to prove a relationship like this. All you can do is statistical analysis to test the correlation. And of course, no decent statistician would try to crunch numbers on this because there are way too many variables to account for. Literally all that can be done (and all I've seen anyone do) is look at crime rates, and look at legalization of abortion. That is very far from proving. Not to mention, the study itself has some major flaws. And as far as your "countless studies" I've looked it up and found several articles referencing the same study (by Donohue and Levitt). There is a subtle difference b/t article (written by a journalist) and a study.And guess what? A ton of experts have criticized and even found errors in their study. (look up Foote and Goetz article for the details on that). Not to mention you can look at crime rates throughout the entire century (instead starting in the 60s, which I think is where Donohue started) and you'll see a different picture.
Now I know you don't know much about statistics and you more than likely don't care. I'm posting this for other people who may have heard this.

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No I don't know.

You're not getting my point, so allow me to clarify it, and I suggest you read it over a couple of times to see what I'm saying: You're claiming people are trying to give

 more 

rights to embryos, when in reality it's not even close. You have the right to vote, live, smoke, drink (if you're old enough) etc. This claim that anyone is trying to give them more rights than you is illogical and purely based on misplaced emotion. The only right people are trying to secure for these people is to live. If someone was trying to rob you of that right, I'd fight for you to have it as well.

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Do you know who John Locke is? Yeah, our constitution was based on what he said. And he said all people are 'born' with these rights,

Well I'm pretty surprised that you are quoting a man who talks about how men are subject to the moral law which is the law of God as a supporter of abortion. I assume you are referring to his quote "men are born free and equal in rights". Not too surprising you're trying to take his quote out of context. This is a great quote talking about the nature of man and his government, but it has nothing to do with abortion. He wasn't trying to say people only have rights after they are born. He's talking about how men naturally have no government and are all equal but must enter into a social contract (key word if you ever want to quote Locke) in order to ensure others do not encroach on these rights. The word born isn't really all the key (a reason why our Declaration of Independence said men are created equal probably wasn't considered a big change) Nothing really points to the idea he would be for abortion.
That's a simplified version, but you'll learn more about him in your college civics class. If you want to learn more, my American History and Law professor recommended this link as a good source of general idea for Locke. here.
Are you really surprised I'd call out your out of context quote? And I mean really, you think the constitution was built around the idea someone had to be born in order to have rights??

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It really doesn't matter anyways what was written in the original constitution because the founding fathers intended to have it change as the times changed. Something that a lot of people don't seem to get in this country.

It does if you're going to say you have a RIGHT to something. it also matters if you're going to say what the constitution was built around. You bring up the constitution then act like I'm out of line for talking about it. Do you wanna talk about what's in it or not?

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Your scientific view on abortion isn't scientific

Hmm yeah if only it was more like the cleansing undesirables and looking at crime rates. THAT is science. Not discussing DNA as a marker of individuality, not pointing out that human embryos are living human beings (which surprisingly you seem to agree with). How silly of me.
In fact, while I'm thinking about it, what is it exactly that you think? Do you think embryos are living human beings, but aren't deserving of the right to live because they aren't born? Or is it that you don't believe it is a living human being, and thus not worth of rights? My argument is that an embryo is a created, living human being and as such is entitled to the right to live. Taking away a human life is the basic definition of murder.

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you take scientific facts like the whole idea that the blob is alive and use it to justify your beliefs.

In light that you totally tried to make John Locke for legal abortions, this made me laugh.
But in all seriousness, your accusations would hold more weight except I was actually pro-choice until I took my intro to biology class in college (around age 18). See when we discussed definition of life at the beginning of the semester, and then around middle discussed basic human development, I started to make a connection that it fit all the criteria for life, and the text book referred to it as a human. This may surprise you, but the text book wasn't even the Bible! I couldn't reconcile so I changed my beliefs. The more I've studied biology (specifically microbiology which deals with the edge of life and not living) I've found my initial conclusions reinforced. Nice try to mind read me though.
Now, I presented scientific justification for the embryo being alive and human. You just say I'm justifying beliefs I didn't even have. You have anything else?

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Everyone knows an embryo is alive. Everyone knows a fetus is alive. That isn't what matters here. What matters is what deserves more rights. A fifteen year old child or the blob in gut. According to you, you would ruin the life of the child so that the blob can turn into another child (who will be just as miserarble).

This where I don't get your point. I already dealt with the "more rights" idiology. My last post dealt with the ruining life dramatization. To reiterate simply, being poor and working harder doesn't constitute as having your life ruined. There are lots of single mothers that are going to college right at this minute improving their lives.
And in any case, are you trying to tell me that you think killing a living human being is ok as long as it could prove an inconvenience to the mother? I mean, if you acknowledge that an embryo is alive and human (while you didn't explicitly say it is human, you didn't argue it so I assume you agree), how can you justify taking its life because it can't "breath, be self aware, and doesn't affect the outside world"?

this thread made my day.

i honestly used to be against abortion but now i changed my mind since i had a scare. I realized that if i really had been that i most def. would have gotten the abortion. some people rnt meant to have kids...i know i would be one of those people so i agree that abortion can be great

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I got a good laugh out of this. "If only we had more abortions, our society would really advance!!"

It's called cleansing the undesirables. People like you wouldn't understand this. People like both of you are the reason why our planet does not get better. Same thing with terrorists, retards, skizas, and shysters. Basically, anyone who thinks that they need to care about other people's lives rather than the greater good. Seriously, it's none of your business what a person does with their life as long they don't kill anyone close to you or steal from you. Everyone needs to shut up, stop being pussies and pull their heads out from their arses or else we will not become one united planet. We will continue on as a bunch of effed up countries who can't get along. The act of abortion isn't going to turn us into a T1 planet; the mindsets of shallow, ignorant dum-dums will keep us the way we are now.

Notice how all of our (good) inventions came out after the 70's.

Also, it has been proven by countless studies that abortion lowers the crime rate.

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and not to mention living being have the right to not be aborted, so you know...

No I don't know. It's not a breathing person. It has no self-awareness at all. It does not directly affect the outside world. It does not have more rights than me.

That's what you're saying you know. You are saying that a some pregnant woman's belly should have more rights than me. Thanks. I really appreciate that.

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Note how it doesn't say born, it says created (by their creator no less)

Wow, how silly you are. Do you know who John Locke is? Yeah, our constitution was based on what he said. And he said all people are 'born' with these rights, but don't feel bad a lot of people apparently didn't take civics in high school so they just don't know.

It really doesn't matter anyways what was written in the original constitution because the founding fathers intended to have it change as the times changed. Something that a lot of people don't seem to get in this country.

Your scientific view on abortion isn't scientific; it is full of your personal morals and biases. This is why I dismiss it. You personally do not like abortion, so you take scientific facts like the whole idea that the blob is alive and use it to justify your beliefs. That is not science.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

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Really what the argument is centered around is whether or not an embryo is considered alive or not. Pro-life believes it is, pro-choice do not.

Everyone knows an embryo is alive. Everyone knows a fetus is alive. That isn't what matters here. What matters is what deserves more rights. A fifteen year old child or the blob in gut. According to you, you would ruin the life of the child so that the blob can turn into another child (who will be just as miserarble).

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People who are pro-life are against the progress of the human race. It's because of people like them that we will not become a T1 planet sooner than we should.

How would being against abortion halt the progress of the human race? Serious question.

Abortion was illegal for most of the 20th century, yet somehow we managed to go from phonographs to iPods.

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What are you even talking about. I have an idea of what you are saying but I cannot believe you would even think it.

I was being sarcastic, specifically I was exaggerating to make a point. Kinda similar to what you do here:

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Why do people wish to give blobs of cells more rights than a living organism?

See, literally speaking, living organisms always have more rights that embryos. (no one is trying to give embryos the right to vote.) and not to mention living being have the right to not be aborted, so you know...

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The government's job is to protect the rights of those who have been born.

Well you see that's not really the case. First of all, abortions are illegal even before birth. The question is; are embryos considered living human beings? It's not really about rights, because if they are not living human beings, no one would care if you aborted them. But if they are, then it's murder. The debate is much simpler then people try to make it.

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Our country's constitution was built around the idea that all people are BORN with three inalienable rights.

Seems like you're trying to quote the Declaration of Independence which reads: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men," Note how it doesn't say born, it says created (by their creator no less) Don't feel bad, a lot of people misquote it. Going by this, it seems like you're trying to claim that embryos are not created and thus don't have access to the right of life. If they are in fact created and are granted the right of life,then it is the government's job to secure this right. This is the reason pro-life will argue that it is the government's job to step it. Little more complicated than a group of people saying "let's make sure women don't have rights, heh heh heh."

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What then, according to you, is the major argument that politicians use. It is ridiculous to deny the close ties that abortion and religion share.

Besides what I just mentioned, I've shared my personal scientific view of abortion ad nauseum on this site, so much so that it's surprising to me that you haven't read it (or think it's just "it's against God to have an abortion" which is an argument I would never endorse since the Bible doesn't say anything about when life starts or about abortion in general). To summarize, in all reasonable scientific and medical definitions an embryo is a living human being. This is why if you ask "was I ever an embryo" or "is there such a thing as a human embryo" any doctor would say "yes". There's more detail than this, but that's the gist.

Really what the argument is centered around is whether or not an embryo is considered alive or not. Pro-life believes it is, pro-choice do not. I can't overemphasize that enough. If people reading this are not convinced of the pro-life viewpoint, at least understand that and I'll be ecstatic.God doesn't have to enter it. In fact, the Bible serves as a poor source for evidence in this (even if you believed it is the highest authority) because it doesn't really discuss the concept much. Some pro-life use visual arguments such as showing what a fetus looks like when it is still legal to terminate the pregnancy and whatnot.

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Wow, birth control. Maybe some people just are not ready for children and have made a huge mistake. Maybe the girl was taken advantage of by a douchebag boyfriend.

Seriously, don't lump all of that 95% together. You have no idea what the circumstances are.

This was more directed at the argument that it should be legal due special circumstances that even a lot of pro-life support, but constitute 1% or so of all abortions. Doesn't apply to the definition of life thing.
Having said that, I know several good people who were put into this circumstance (my Mom being one of them) who, if they had an abortion, would be in the 95% and no one would blame them. Those who didn't have an abortion were told they were being stupid and throwing their lives away, yet somehow their lives worked out just fine. May have been a lil poorer than otherwise and went through some hard times, but their lives are far from ruined. I know my Mom personally has said my oldest brother was well worth all the hardships (one of which was dropping out of High School. She wasn't even a christian at the time, she just didn't buy into the pro-choice argument.) Pro-choice viewpoint demonizes the situation to the extreme.

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People who are pro-life are against the progress of the human race. It's because of people like them that we will not become a T1 planet sooner than we should.

I got a good laugh out of this. "If only we had more abortions, our society would really advance!!"

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just a side note, but if the "pro-life" groups insist on calling the "pro-choice" groups "pro-abortion" we will change their title to "anti-choice dictator lovers"
This is a good point. All dictators are united in their opinion against abortion and all those who support liberty are against abortion. It's just as clear of a title as pro-abortion, right?

What are you even talking about. I have an idea of what you are saying but I cannot believe you would even think it.

Why do people wish to give blobs of cells more rights than a living organism? The woman has no rights, the blob in her gut does. The people with cancer have no rights, only the stem cells do. Seriously, can we actually start to care about the liberties of breathing, thinking people for once?

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Number one: why should government dictate if a women aborts her baby or not
the same reason why the government can dictate whether I can beat the crap out of my neighbor or not, or hit my wife or not. Part of the government's job is to protect human (and in some cases, even animal) life.

The government's job is to protect the rights of those who have been born. Our country's constitution was built around the idea that all people are BORN with three inalienable rights.

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We are supposed to be a government the separates religion for politics, yet I here politicians preaching "It's against God" to have an abortion.
There are much stronger arguments than this. This isn't even a major argument that politicians use.

What then, according to you, is the major argument that politicians use. It is ridiculous to deny the close ties that abortion and religion share.

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Even most pro-life agree with these, but one thing to keep in mind is around 95% of all abortions done in the US will be purely for the cause of birth control. That is what pro-life (or pro-dictator whatever whatever) are going after.

Wow, birth control. Maybe some people just are not ready for children and have made a huge mistake. Maybe the girl was taken advantage of by a douchebag boyfriend.

Seriously, don't lump all of that 95% together. You have no idea what the circumstances are.

People who are pro-life are against the progress of the human race. It's because of people like them that we will not become a T1 planet sooner than we should.

Some thoughts:

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just a side note, but if the "pro-life" groups insist on calling the "pro-choice" groups "pro-abortion" we will change their title to "anti-choice dictator lovers"

This is a good point. All dictators are united in their opinion against abortion and all those who support liberty are against abortion. It's just as clear of a title as pro-abortion, right?

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Number one: why should government dictate if a women aborts her baby or not

the same reason why the government can dictate whether I can beat the crap out of my neighbor or not, or hit my wife or not. Part of the government's job is to protect human (and in some cases, even animal) life.

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We are supposed to be a government the separates religion for politics, yet I here politicians preaching "It's against God" to have an abortion.

There are much stronger arguments than this. This isn't even a major argument that politicians use.

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Number two: if having a baby is going to harm the mother in any way the pregnancy needs to be terminated. Number three: if a woman gets raped, meaning she had no intent on having a child or having sex with the person, why shouldn’t she be able to abort?

Even most pro-life agree with these, but one thing to keep in mind is around 95% of all abortions done in the US will be purely for the cause of birth control. That is what pro-life (or pro-dictator whatever whatever) are going after.

Just a side note, but if the "pro-life" groups insist on calling the "pro-choice" groups "pro-abortion" we will change their title to "anti-choice dictator lovers"
It's a bit long, and maybe just a little exaggerated, but I think it suits just fine.

I am on the pro-choice side for three main reasons. Number one: why should government dictate if a women aborts her baby or not. We are supposed to be a government the separates religion for politics, yet I here politicians preaching "It's against God" to have an abortion. Number two: if having a baby is going to harm the mother in any way the pregnancy needs to be terminated. Number three: if a woman gets raped, meaning she had no intent on having a child or having sex with the person, why shouldn’t she be able to abort?
That's my take on abortion.

I don't think I would ever be able to have an abortion myself, but I do support every woman's right to do what she feels is best for herself, and arguably the child. (it could have a horrible life, being beaten/molested in foster homes...) I would never push my religious beliefs onto another human. (I don't even agree with the idea of missionaries)

No matter how you feel about this topic you cannot force a woman to allow her body to mutilated by a parasitic creature for nine months while this thing grows.

In my opinion a fetus becomes a baby when it can think, feel. It is human when it is sentient. Around 17 weeks I think. It might resemble a human baby before that but it isn't.

Court spokesman Joseph Tybor said there’s nothing political about the new rules or the court’s timing in issuing them, but with elections around the corner, opponents of the law disagree.
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pandreson

SuperBabyGuide

I don't understand why ppl on the pro-life side (or anti-choice side as I like to say teehee!) think that ppl who are pro-choice enjoy abortions. It's not that we like medical procedures... we like knowing we have the freedom to get them.

and I agree with speed... this is such a catch 22 topic however I need to procrastinate somehow from doing hw.

yay yay yay!!!
tank you so much for this post!
i was searching the web and
finding so many negative
things on abortion!! ]:

i just had an abortion yesterday
and im starting college in two days
without the stress and worry of a BABY

i was not ready for one and yes it
was my fault for becoming pregnant

BUT HEY give me a chance to learn from
my mistakes, my mom had two abortions before she had me, so i wouldnt be here if
it wasnt for abortions

YAY ABORTIONS!!!!! [:

Kharybdis, that post was a bit too far. Please don't mock others beliefs in such an obscene way.

What is it about abortion that you like? I'm not being judgmental. I'm just curious.

Maybe I enjoy killing children.

no.
abortion is killing a child, a LIVING thing because of your dumb mistake.

why take a life because you screwed up. You could be killing the person to find the cure for cancer. Go through with your mistake. theres always adoption. Don't hurt another person cause you were stupid, had unprotected sex, and now dont wnat to deal with the consequences.