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Registered: February 19, 2005
Posts: 3
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i'd like to start off by saying, bogey sounds like he/she studied socrates and his method for argument. Hey Bogey, it works in the court of law but it doesn't here.
Ok look, I'm 16 and this week I found out i'm pregnant. My partner very sneakily, impregnated me. Now stomach that.
I'm having an abortion because psychologically, this is a matter of life or death.
"life or death" can be metaphorical. Intellects will know what i'm talking about.
don't give me GARBAGE about how i'm killing a baby. 5 weeks is mere blood and tissue don't make me sick. Nobody is in any position to judge me or anyone else in a similar situation as mine. No One. If you feel you have the right...go consult JESUS CHRIST.
Quite frankly, i'm sick of debates about this...i've just been introduced to the ugly world of "pro-live VS pro-choice"
I'm also sick of conspirating "pro-lifers" running sites to distract the mind from the truth. I am so very sorry but what some of these sites are showcasing, are very well not "the truth". This "truth" I keep seeing is very much lies. "Let's tell the people that no abortions are successful and bearable." LIES.
People let their human emotions take over and these human emotions override everything else.
it's increasingly annoying, as I read these posts from bitter "pro-lifers", who are only being uppity about NEW LIFE and not the life that they see in front of them.
Do these same emotions occur when you turn on the tv and see children living in poverty and famine? You don't do anything about that do you.
oh no.
instead you encourage new life, stating that it doesn't matter if they will be starving or abused because the mother is going through stress in her life because of the birth (yes, in case you are living in a serene bubble...this can happen and it does happen alot)
If good things are guaranteed for us humans, why are there so many people living in poverty?
oh and, for people who think that majority of the U.S is "pro-life"...those bush votes were a conspiracy. I don't care if one doesn't believe that because many have the knowledge, it is not a myth.
Ultimately, everyone who chooses to debate about this subject is pro-life. The only difference is one side is overlooking the actual life of one, and one is taking all aspects of worldly life into highly thoughtful consideration.
and to those who are quick to judge..
think about your rebutal, don't want you to sound stupid or tired now.
NOT ONE PERSON on this board has said "abortion is the right thing to do"
Get It straight..
and let this stand out to you.
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Registered: March 08, 2004
Posts: 1686
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Aloe, I'm truly sorry for your situation, and I could not agree with you more about the self-named "pro-lifer's" conditioned emotional reactions to abortion. It's Pavlov's dogs times a hundred. I also share your dislike for people who refuse to accept that real life doesn't always fit with their idelogical stances. That said, your post was rather hypocritical and unfounded in places. I've stayed out of the main Abortion board in the past couple of months, because it was (and still is) going around in big, endless circles. I'm not naive enough to expect that to change, because all arguments where each side is big enough and passionate enough go around in big, endless circles. I would like to restate my original post on the thread, though (my ego is just big enough to allow this): quote: Originally posted by Aguagon on the "Abortion is wrong" thread:
I realize that this is abortion thread number 1 of God-knows-how-many, and that's it's 61 pages long, so more likely than not everything I'm about to post will have already been covered and picked apart by the pro-lifers. But just in case it hasn't, I'm gonna post it anyway.
Basically, what this all boils down to is that you're all caught up in ideological stances, and that you're taking this debate far too personally. Now, I'm sure Bogey and luvabug will be eager to jump on me with the "You're damn right I take murder personally!" bit, but I would like you to consider that you don't. When you hear of individual cases of women having abortions, you probably become infuriated, because your ideology is so set against that. Yet, when you hear of an earthquake in Hong Kong that killed 11,387 people, you recognize that it's horrible, but you ultimately shrug it off, and I can't blame you for that. You didn't personally know any of those 11,387 people, and life goes on. Yet, concerning your reactions to the abortion issue, every one of those babies could be your best friend.
The pro-choices are equally guilty of being too ideological. To them, it's about protecting "freedom to choose" at all costs, when in reality, none of their own personal rights are being taken away. Even if abortion becomes outlawed, if you want one bad enough, you'll get one. Don't worry, and calm down.
I guess you would call me pro-choice, just because of my "this really isn't too big a deal" stance. Don't get me wrong, though: I fully believe abortion is murder; I just happen to believe it's murder that is as acceptable as murder gets. What separates unborn babies from those 11,387 earthquake victims is that even if we don't personally know those earthquake victims, somebody does. For months, or years, or perhaps even lifetimes to come, people will be mourning those earthquake victims' deaths. But who really knows unborn babies? Who will spend the rest of their life mourning the death of a person they have never laid eyes upon? If anyone will, it will be the Mother. And, lo and behold, the Mother is the one who gets to make the choice and live with that choice for the rest of her life. The system works!
Now you'll cry that to announce that the only ones who suffer from murder are those who knew the murdered one is foolish. What about the murdered one himself? Does he not suffer? In my opinion, if he does, it is temporary and ultimately inconsequential. What makes murder so horrible for the murderee is not the pain being felt, but the knowledge that death is rushing for them with reaching hands. Lucky for unborn babies, they don't consciously realize that their own death is imminent during abortion procedures. They're not pre-emptively mourning the loss of their own life, and nobody else is going to personally mourn the loss of their life, except the Mother who made the choice in the first place and a large coalition of pro-lifers who insist on having full access to everyone's personal and emotional lives.
Think about it. When a woman has a miscarriage, do you feel bad for the unborn baby or for the woman? If you're like most of us, I think you feel bad for the woman.
It is easy to bring religion into this, to claim that God hates abortion and with each baby aborted we are making him sad and angry. I suppose that could be true. I also could have the power to become invisible whenever I choose to. You'll never quite know, will you? Basically, what I'm trying to say is, for once, don't bring what you're somehow certain is the "word of God" into this.
The argument that a society that allows abortions de-values life is plagued with historical inaccuracies. I don't want to make this post any longer than it's already going to be, but if you want me to post some specific examples of this, I will.
I suppose you could also argue that my reasoning is invalid because it is tolerant of the killing of anything that cannot comprehend death and that will not personally be mourned for. On that note, I must also address the issue that our enviromnent and delicate eco-system must come into play. If a murder will disrupt or worsen our environment in any way, shape, or form, it should not be committed. However, this world is doing just fine (a little too well, you might say) on its stock of readily avaiable humans. Not bringing more humans into the world is actually a much greater gift to it than bringing more humans into the world. Obviously, the best way to go about doing this is not getting preagnant in the first place, but śhit happens. At this point in time, it is impossible to argue that it would better for the environment and society if more women were bringing babies into the world. It's just not the case. We would be better off if more women did not bring babies into this world, by hanger or by crook.
Lastly, I would like to point out that the "Abortion is the New Holocaust" argument is greatly offensive to Holocaust survivors, descendants of Holocaust survivors, and the memory of those who did not survive the Holocaust. Those sentient life-forms had to endure horrible, painful treatment over a long period of time, live with a horribly decreased quality of life (and that's the understatement of the millenium), and always had the fear of their own death and the of the deaths of their friends and family on the mind. Babies who are being aborted are not sentient, are not having to endure any more pain than however long the abortion procedure takes, and most importantly of all, do not fear death.
Maybe all of this sounds like a stubborn justification to a deed that is horrible beyond all reason to you. If so, I ask you to consider that maybe that's just your own stubborn ideology talking.
I still stand by all that. Thank you for putting up with my repitition. Moving right along: quote: Originally posted by Aloe_Vera:
People let their human emotions take over and these human emotions override everything else.
That's absolutely true, but as Bogey so kindly demonstrated by sinking to your level, it fails miserably at supporting either side's belief. quote: instead you encourage new life, stating that it doesn't matter if they will be starving or abused
That's really not such a great argument. You can't just assume a baby wouldn't find life worth living, no matter how dire the circumstances he or she is born into. Likewise, a sensible pro-lifer would not announce, "Your unborn son would have loved life!" quote: oh and, for people who think that majority of the U.S is "pro-life"...those bush votes were a conspiracy. I don't care if one doesn't believe that because many have the knowledge, it is not a myth.
The majority of the U.S. is pro-Bush and anti-choice. It's unfortunate, but it's true. And you really don't look so hot first denouncing anti-abortion propaganda sites and then announcing Bush was elected via a conspiracy. Maybe it's hard to believe he was legitimately elected when you live in Canada, but down here in Arizona it (unfortunately) makes perfect sense. quote: NOT ONE PERSON on this board has said "abortion is the right thing to do"
As Bogey points out, pro-choicers say "it was the best thing to do" all the time. Are you asking someone to announce that abortion in general is "the right thing to do?" I don't think anyone believes that.
And then, as the books were told, Fina replied: "A can of worms, my dear friend? What has this to do with reason?"
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Registered: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2013
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quote: Hey Bogey, it works in the court of law but it doesn't here.
May I ask, "Why not?" The court of law is totally secular and that is what I thought our laws are supposed to be. And because the banning of abortion would be a law, shouldn't arguing like Socrates be recommended? quote: People let their human emotions take over and these human emotions override everything else.
I completely agree. This is the only reason abortion exists. Sometimes people just become so passionate about something, that their reason and logic becomes faded. quote: If good things are guaranteed for us humans, why are there so many people living in poverty?
Did anyone ever say that? Also, are you implying that if one lives in poverty, then one will never receive "good things"? By the way, what do you consider a "good thing"? Is it an earthly thing? quote: NOT ONE PERSON on this board has said "abortion is the right thing to do"
Every single pro-abortionist believes this. They believe that if it is the "best option" for the mother, then "abortion is the right thing to do." quote: Do these same emotions occur when you turn on the tv and see children living in poverty and famine? You don't do anything about that do you.
Do you expect people to listen to you, when you make ridiculous assumptions? quote: oh and, for people who think that majority of the U.S is "pro-life"...those bush votes were a conspiracy. I don't care if one doesn't believe that because many have the knowledge, it is not a myth.
Wow, if people didn't get a good read on what kind of person you were before this, then I'm sure this quote will inform them. First off, get over the election. Secondly, if you are so sure about this "conspiracy" please, don't be selfish, share the proof. quote: and to those who are quick to judge..
Don't be a hypocrite. You are almost certainly just as quick-to-judge as anybody else when you hear that someone is totally against abortion. You most certainly think that that person is wrong and uninformed. I am not necessarily saying that it is wrong to "judge" in this way - it's pretty much human nature - but just don't act like you don't do it. quote: But when it's a mass of unorganized or barely organized cells that cannot be recognized as a human, it can easily be overlooked.
And it most definitely overlooked. That is the only reason abortion seems acceptable by some people. When an issue forces you to think a little further, many people overlook the most basic facts.
Tennis balls are green, not yellow.
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Registered: April 24, 2003
Posts: 2196
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quote: so youre saying its ok to have an abortion before 3 weeks?
No, i was just showing her exactly how much her fetus has developed so far. I said nothing nor implied nothing about abortions before 3 weeks being okay.
"Victories that are easy are cheap. Those only that are worth having are the ones which come as the result of hard fighting"-Henry Ward Beecher
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Registered: November 05, 2004
Posts: 6039
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I'm not quite sure what you're getting at Aloe_Vera, but I'll try to comment just the same. I'm technically pro-choice. This does not mean that I'm for all women having an abortion whenever they want it. I am, however, for the ability of these women to make a choice about it. I understand that sometimes an abortion is the only way to go, so I want the option available. However, I'd rather there be ways to prevent abortion being needed. Now, don't get all upset and think I'm against you, I can understand what you're going through (don't get mad at me for saying that either). So I guess in essence, I agree with you. It's in the human nature to be pro-life. Killing is an abnormality. But when it's a mass of unorganized or barely organized cells that cannot be recognized as a human, it can easily be overlooked. You just need to remember that pro-choice does not neccessarily mean pro-abortion.
The more you know, the less you don't know.
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Registered: July 26, 2004
Posts: 2891
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"sneakily impregnated you." Explain? Not in detail though.
Evitere Les Contrefacons.
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Registered: March 09, 2004
Posts: 2913
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Registered: April 24, 2003
Posts: 2196
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quote: 5 weeks is mere blood and tissue don't make me sick.
"Week 3 beginning development of the brain, spinal cord, and heart beginning development of the gastrointestinal tract Weeks 4 to 5 formation of tissue that develops into the vertebra and some other bones further development of the heart which now beats at a regular rhythm movement of rudimentary blood through the main vessels beginning of the structures of the eye and ears the brain develops into five areas and some cranial nerves are visible arm and leg buds are visible" By 5 weeks your fetus has already developed this much.
"Victories that are easy are cheap. Those only that are worth having are the ones which come as the result of hard fighting"-Henry Ward Beecher
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Registered: November 22, 2004
Posts: 750
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Just out of curiosity, how did your partner "very sneakily" impregnate you? Sex creates children, it always has and it always will. Were you aware of that when you started having sex? I am of the opinion that abortion is a woman's choice and I understand that this is a matter of life and death to you. Better you murder this unborn child than let it ruin your life and grow up to be a burden on the rest of us. I just hope you learned your lesson about sex and it's results.
"Mac, you ever been in love?" - "No, I've been a bartender all my life."
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Registered: March 09, 2004
Posts: 2913
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I cannot project the degree of hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but hatred, a virulent hatred for an unnamed object...Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life. In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today's intellectual field, they call themselves 'pro-life.' - Ayn Rand
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