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Some babies will die within a day of birth. Some fetuses are severely deformed or mentally handicaped....

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Ok, someone might have already said this, but its better to let the kid die of natural causes (even if its a couple days later) than 'force' its death. There are so many other options rather than KILLING a poor, innocent fetus.

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That's because that's the way you're acting.

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No, I am not acting that way. I am not basing any of my points off of the Bible. I have left open the possibility of early term abortions as long as it's regulated. I've backed up my position with rationality and have been trying to transfer my reasoning to you. And it's been promptly ignored.
Does not thinking that abortion is an inherent right make me a nutcase?

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What I don't understand is why you care so much about strangers that you will never meet getting abortions. It has nothing to do with you. Nothing what-so-ever. Also, laws allowing abortions are not taking anything away from you, and laws prohibiting abortions aren't giving anything to you. Whereas, a law that prohibits abortion could ruin my entire life.

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There are a plethora of laws out there that have nothing to do with me. It's not about protecting myself, it's about protecting the sense of humanity in out culture.

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Why is it that the mother's life is not valued as much as the fetus's life is?

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The fetus is not more valued. The point is that it is EQUALLY valued. A innocent life is an innocent life. Abortion for conveinence or income issues is not a justified reason to kill a person who is equally as valuable as anyone else. You can't murder an infant because it's not having a happy life at the moment. Why should you be able to do it to a fetus in the 7th or 8th month of development?

At that stage, in the 3rd trimester the baby is essentially fully formed. All that differentiates it from an infant is a few centimeters of flesh and some natal fluid. HOw can you justify killing that?

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I get the feeling that your treating me like "Generic Republican Moron #3422".

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That's because that's the way you're acting.

What I don't understand is why you care so much about strangers that you will never meet getting abortions. It has nothing to do with you. Nothing what-so-ever. Also, laws allowing abortions are not taking anything away from you, and laws prohibiting abortions aren't giving anything to you. Whereas, a law that prohibits abortion could ruin my entire life. Why is it that the mother's life is not valued as much as the fetus's life is?

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This just proves how little you know about pregnancy: if you were eight months pregnant, you would know. You would know if you were two months pregnant.

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People have legally argued that they did not know they were pregnant untill late in the pregnancy. In any case, if you would step back for a second you would realize that I am primarily arguing against late term abortions. I have already stated that I can live in a world with legalized buy restricted abortion in the first and maybe second trimester.
My point was, if you're in a later term pregnancy that resulted from rape, and you waited this long to get an abortion (8 months or so) then you screwed up. Rationally, you should not make the otherwise viable infant inside you pay for that mistake.

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See, here's the thing: it is. It is my choice about abortion

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You've let the point fly right over your head. By aborting a child in late pregnancy you are making the choice about THIER life. Not yours. It's not your right or your choice to do that.

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then you should support abortions, because when abortions are illegal, women will kill themselves and their fetus, because people like you decided that it was your right to decide how the course of women's lives were going to go. Not to mention the fact that if abortion is illegal, some women will have the child, then kill it. Put in a garbage can, not feed it, drown it. Do whatever they can to get rid of it. Pro-lifers aren't supporting life; their supporting death, just like pro-choicers.

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This logic is similar to saying, people will steal, so we might as well set up a system for them to do it safely. If something is inherently wrong, as I beleive it is, it doesn't matter whether people will still do it. We should make it illegal regardless.

If someone wants to do it to themselves, sure go ahead. If you want to commit infanticide, then go ahead. Just realize that there is a price to pay for that. To me, a child killed outside the womb is the same as one killed inside.
You can call it a parasite all you want, and I still think that it is human enough to be given human rights.
Therefore, whether it is illegal or not, it is still wrong. It follows that something that is equal to murder and infanticide should be made illegal.

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You can't imagine how terrified I am.

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I was being facetious.

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Exactly. It's my ******* choice. It's my choice to decide if I want to have an abortion, not someone elses.

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Again you just simply took my quote out of context. It is not your decision to decide the fate of an innocent persons life.

I get the feeling that your treating me like "Generic Republican Moron #3422". Read my posts throughly, because it feels like my point is being missed. Consider for a second that a fetus is not simply a lump of flesh.

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if you were raped and impregnated 8 months ago, and never checked if you were pregnant and looked into getting an abortion in the early stages, THEN you screwed up.

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This just proves how little you know about pregnancy: if you were eight months pregnant, you would know. You would know if you were two months pregnant.

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Then it's up to them. Not you. They want to commit suicide, fine. But they also might not want to. It's not your freaking choice.

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See, here's the thing: it is. It is my choice about abortion, since if I had sex with someone and there was a pregnancy, I would be the one carrying the parasite in my womb for nine months. It's not my choice to kill grown people; I leave that up to the Republicans, but it is my choice whether or not I can get an abortion. Maybe that's what your so pissed off about; that ultimately, I have the real power in this issue, and you don't. I'm not saying you can't vote or harrase Congress, but, when it comes down to it, you don't get to decide if women get abortions or not. Especially since some women, if abortion is made illegal, are going to get a doctor friend to perform an abortion for them, or they are going to go to their closet, get a clotheshanger, and put it places where it shouldn't be. Or, they're going to fall down the stairs, hoping to miscarrage. Or they're going to take birth control pills. The point is, women are going to have abortions, legal or not, and if you are so against wanton killing, then you should support abortions, because when abortions are illegal, women will kill themselves and their fetus, because people like you decided that it was your right to decide how the course of women's lives were going to go. Not to mention the fact that if abortion is illegal, some women will have the child, then kill it. Put in a garbage can, not feed it, drown it. Do whatever they can to get rid of it. Pro-lifers aren't supporting life; their supporting death, just like pro-choicers.

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All you've done is pissed me off now.

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You can't imagine how terrified I am.

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It's YOUR choice to decide that, not someone elses.

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Exactly. It's my ******* choice. It's my choice to decide if I want to have an abortion, not someone elses.

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"Life is not worth living if you cannot enjoy it," - my Bio teacher. I stand by what he said.

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It's YOUR choice to decide that, not someone elses. You mother, father, or best friend cannot decide you're life is too wretched to continue and kill you.

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Because a life is not expected to be pleasent is not a reason to end it.

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"Life is not worth living if you cannot enjoy it," - my Bio teacher. I stand by what he said. I would rather be dead than to know that something is wrong with me my whole life but never understand quite what it is (like what happens to some mentally retarded kids) or knowing and not being able to do anything about it (like having AIDS).

For example, say my father had AIDS, and gave it to my mom, who then had me, and I had AIDS. Also say that my only dream in life is to have a family. How am I supposed to have a family if AIDS is going to kill me and be passed onto my children, who will then suffer and die? I would rather have never been born than to see my only dream die.

But whatever. Just responding to that. Keep on debating. I'm not gonna check this board again, so if you want to respond, a NOISEmail would be a good idea.

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Just saying that space taken up is not the determining factor in ticketing. After all, a guy twice my height or width doesn't pay for two tickets.

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However, obese people can be charged for two tickets on an airliner. Seeing how they have to take up two seats in coach. Obviously size isn't the determining factor, but for purposes of common courtesy and just plain common sense, infants and the unborn usually aren't ticketed

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The real reason they don't charge for a ticket it because the pregnant woman plus child takes up the same amount of space as the woman sans child.

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Not the case. Do you think if I invited a midget to sit on my lap in a movie theater they would not charge him for a ticket? I'll admit I haven't tried this yet, but it doesn't sound plausible.

Hem. I'm not saying I think tickets determine personhood. Just saying that space taken up is not the determining factor in ticketing. After all, a guy twice my height or width doesn't pay for two tickets. Although it would be nice if there was a large curve, like if I followed a Weight Watchers bus to the theater-- I could maybe get in for half price.

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I was thinking about this earlier today, and I realized that for my graduation, my aunt, who is pregnant, does not have to buy a separate ticket for her fetus, but she does have to buy a separate ticket for her one year old child. That is because until her fetus is born, it is not a separate person; it is like an extension of herself, like an arm or a leg, except for the fact that it is living off of her, and taking her nutrients.

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And now tickets determine whether or not you're a human? Infants did not require tickets at my graduation. Does that mean that all those babies don't have legal rights?

The real reason they don't charge for a ticket it because the pregnant woman plus child takes up the same amount of space as the woman sans child.

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If that's not wanton killing, I don't know what is.

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It's not wanton in my opinion. See, here's the crux- We place different values on different lives and reasons for killing. War is a differernt case than abortion. This again, is a whole other topic which i would gladly take up with you in another thread.

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I don't think you understand how horrible and painful birth is for the mother. It's fine for the father, holding the hand of the mother, but for the mother, the experience is horrible. I don't want to go through that experience, personally, unless I know there is a good reason for me to.

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That is one of the most rediculus excuses out there. Yes, it is a painful, messy experiance. It's also a reality. You can get painkillers and other such things that make it more pleasent. Un anethetised abortion isn't a pain-free thing either. The cases where the child dies so early are exteremly rare. It is also not a justified case for unrestricted abortion.
If you're saying that abortion should be limited to babies with zero life expectancy and rape, then I'll give you a chance. But using extreme cases to justify the whole thing is flawed.

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You have obviously never been abused if you think it's that easy to be happy after years of hearing that you're worthless, never good enough, and years of being physically abused. I would rather die than go through that, and obviously people agree with me, since abused children often attempt, or succeed at, suicide.

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Then it's up to them. Not you. They want to commit suicide, fine. But they also might not want to. It's not your freaking choice.

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I was raped and I screwed up by not saying to the rapist, "Oh, wait, you can't put that there until you put on a condom. And make sure it's Trojan; that's my favorite kind."? Where the **** do you get off saying that?

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You took my statement out of context. What I said was, if you were raped and impregnated 8 months ago, and never checked if you were pregnant and looked into getting an abortion in the early stages, THEN you screwed up. Having said that, your whole paragraph is more or less irrelevent.

And thanks for calling me ***king stupid. All you've done is pissed me off now. Congrats. I'm going to go take my agression out on the inferior females and minorities while eating an non-organic cheesburger and waving the confederate flag.

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Therefore, definitely in later situations and possibly in early stages, it is a SEPERATE person.

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I was thinking about this earlier today, and I realized that for my graduation, my aunt, who is pregnant, does not have to buy a separate ticket for her fetus, but she does have to buy a separate ticket for her one year old child. That is because until her fetus is born, it is not a separate person; it is like an extension of herself, like an arm or a leg, except for the fact that it is living off of her, and taking her nutrients.

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I am not against killing in general. I am against wanton killing.

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I'm assuming you also support war, since all of your other ideals seem to be so horribly Republican. At least 5,000 Iraqi civilians have died in the year or so that we've been in Iraq. 5,000 civilians. 5,000 innocent civilians killed for no other reason than their location at the time of their death. If that's not wanton killing, I don't know what is.

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Therefore, anyone with the possibilty of dying within 24 hours, or anyone with a mental handicap has no right to life? Who are you to decide whether or not an innocent person has the right to live?

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I don't think you understand how horrible and painful birth is for the mother. It's fine for the father, holding the hand of the mother, but for the mother, the experience is horrible. I don't want to go through that experience, personally, unless I know there is a good reason for me to. And a child who will die within a day of his or her birth is not good enough reason for me. I'm not saying that people with a mental handicap have no right to live, I'm merely stating that I don't have the patience, and I will most likely not have the means, to take care of a mentally handicapped child, and, like I previously stated, I'm not going to go through with labor unless there is a good reason.

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Abused children, suffering children, can still make thier lives happy.

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You have obviously never been abused if you think it's that easy to be happy after years of hearing that you're worthless, never good enough, and years of being physically abused. I would rather die than go through that, and obviously people agree with me, since abused children often attempt, or succeed at, suicide.

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You screwed up by not making sure you weren't pregnant.

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I was raped and I screwed up by not saying to the rapist, "Oh, wait, you can't put that there until you put on a condom. And make sure it's Trojan; that's my favorite kind."? Where the **** do you get off saying that? Rape is not the same as sex, not at all, and for you to imply that a rape victim has time to use proper birth control before being sexually abused proves how ****ing stupid you are.

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It is my right, it is my body. If a fetus was in my body leaching off my nutrients, that is apart of my body.

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That unfourtunetly is not true. The fetus has a completely different genetic code. It is a seperate entity. And in the later portions of pregnacy, it can survive outside of the mother. Therefore, definitely in later situations and possibly in early stages, it is a SEPERATE person.

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If I had unprotected sex and I became pregnant, I have the right to abort it. Just like the father has a right to say what he wants done.

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Actually, under current laws, (depending on the state) The father has little to no say. The father also cannot force an abortion, even though he is legally obligated to support the child.

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People still DIE from giving birth.

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There is a difference between natural or accidental birth, and active, intentional killing. One is unaviodable, the other is concious act. It's the difference between bumping into someone and pushing them.

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I rather abort my child then pass on AIDS and other deadly disease.

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Would you rather kill your father outright than see him live with the disease? Should everyone with AIDS be killed?

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If I was going to have major problems giving birth, I'd abort it.

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If you were going to have major problem with birth, which could be alleivated through a C-section, you would abort a healthy, fully developed child?

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I was just randomly wondering about your eating habits, so I thought I would ask. Are you a vegetarian? Also, are you against the death penalty?

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Common arguements.

Animals are not people. This is completely different discussion which I will gladly take somewhere else. But not in here. You cannot equate the slaughter of animals to abortion.

And onto the death penalty. The death penalty is based upon the principle that some people make the concious decision to commit crimes so henious they forfit the right to their own life.
Abortion however, is the ending of a life that is the closest to innocent any of us ever get.

Both examples your provided me with cannot be compared to abortion. Therefore they are invalid.
I am not against killing in general. I am against wanton killing.

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Some babies will die within a day of birth. Some fetuses are severely deformed or mentally handicaped.

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Therefore, anyone with the possibilty of dying within 24 hours, or anyone with a mental handicap has no right to life? Who are you to decide whether or not an innocent person has the right to live?

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Some babies would only be mentally and physically abused if born. Some fetuses would cause death to the mother. There is a plethora of situations that are not selfish, but are putting the child first.

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Because a life is not expected to be pleasent is not a reason to end it. If you think it is, why not just start a wholesale slaughter of the homeless and poverty stricken right now. It would sure end a lot of pain and make things better. Plus, those people are leeching off the resources of society, and that means I can kill them.

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There is no reason for a child to be born, suffer for a day, then die. There is also no reason for a child to live in a world where s/he is going to be abused.

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You cannot use this as an argument because your deciding for masses of people whether or not THEY want to live. Abused children, suffering children, can still make thier lives happy.

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And there is no reason for a mother to die giving birth, if the death of the mother is preventable.

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The VAST majority of cases where the life of the mother is at risk (these cases in themselves being extremely rare) can be saved through modern medicine. If the child is viable, then it should be born.

You might have noticed I left out rape:

Pregnancies that are a result of rape are extremely rare. And if you've gone so far as to realize your 8 months pregnant from a rape, well you now have a viable, innocent child in you. The child has done no wrong. You screwed up by not making sure you weren't pregnant.

I will say this: I am willing to live with the fact that first trimester abortions are availible but restricted. Late term abortions, after the child will be viable outside the womb, is, and always will be, murder.

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1) you are keeping a human being from having the chance to live.

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Some babies will die within a day of birth. Some fetuses are severely deformed or mentally handicaped. Some fetuses are the product of rape or incest. Some babies would only be mentally and physically abused if born. Some fetuses would cause death to the mother. There is a plethora of situations that are not selfish, but are putting the child first. There is no reason for a child to be born, suffer for a day, then die. There is also no reason for a child to live in a world where s/he is going to be abused. There is no reason for a child to be unloved by his/her mother because she was raped or impregnated by a family member (I guess I can't speak for everyone when I say that, but I certainly speak for myself). And there is no reason for a mother to die giving birth, if the death of the mother is preventable. The last one is the only reason that is selfish, and I would rather abort my child than die giving birth to a baby that I will never see.

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2u are ruining the chance to ever have kids again (like if you were young and wanted to wait).

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What is this nonsense? You act as if there is only one type of abortion available to women, and that type of abortion makes you infertile. This is not the case. Some types of abortions keep you from having kids, I've heard, at least, but not all. If you want to have kids later in life, and you are getting an abortion, don't get one that would prohibit you from having kids.

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3 you are acting selfish to help YOUR own needs.

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((Repeat of my first answer))
Some babies will die within a day of birth. Some fetuses are severely deformed or mentally handicaped. Some fetuses are the product of rape or incest. Some babies would only be mentally and physically abused if born. Some fetuses would cause death to the mother. There is a plethora of situations that are not selfish, but are putting the child first. There is no reason for a child to be born, suffer for a day, then die. There is also no reason for a child to live in a world where s/he is going to be abused. There is no reason for a child to be unloved by his/her mother because she was raped or impregnated by a family member (I guess I can't speak for everyone when I say that, but I certainly speak for myself). And there is no reason for a mother to die giving birth, if the death of the mother is preventable. The last one is the only reason that is selfish, and I would rather abort my child than die giving birth to a baby that I will never see.

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If my child was going to die anyway, I'd abort it. If I was raped, I would sure as hell abort it. If I was going to have major problems giving birth, I'd abort it. If I was forced to have an abortion, I'd get one.

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Great here we go....here are a few reasons as to why abortions are stupid and unjust:
1) you are keeping a human being from having the chance to live.

2u are ruining the chance to ever have kids again (like if you were young and wanted to wait).


3 you are acting selfish to help YOUR own needs.

The first two were facts so tell me why abortion is a good thing and maybe i'll consider changing my mind.

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It's much easier to stop abortion however. And if that's what you truely care about, saving people, then abortion is far from what you want.

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I was just randomly wondering about your eating habits, so I thought I would ask. Are you a vegetarian? Also, are you against the death penalty?

Limiting all abortion is wrong. I rather abort my child then pass on AIDS and other deadly disease. If my child was going to die anyway, I'd abort it. If I was raped, I would sure as hell abort it. If I was going to have major problems giving birth, I'd abort it. If I was forced to have an abortion, I'd get one.

People still DIE from giving birth. People give birth to unwanted children. They didn't go out and have sex, they were raped. That still happens.

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But don't go acting like abortion is a right. It's not your body, it's not your right.

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It is my right, it is my body. If a fetus was in my body leaching off my nutrients, that is apart of my body. I am the mother and it's my right to abort the child if I wish.

If I had unprotected sex and I became pregnant, I have the right to abort it. Just like the father has a right to say what he wants done.

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People die for causes that can be stopped. Abortion is a person choice that can't be stopped in most cases. Unless made illegal.

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Therefore the easiest way to stop those deaths is to pass a law forbidding it.

World hunger is not that simple obviously, and yes worldwide it does kill more people than abortion. It's much easier to stop abortion however. And if that's what you truely care about, saving people, then abortion is far from what you want.

In any case, I will only say, for the sake of an arguement that is undoubtably brewing, that I care passionately about late term abortions, and the fact that they can still occur pisses me off bigtime. Earlier stuff, in the first trimester, is not so clearcut.

But don't go acting like abortion is a right. It's not your body, it's not your right.

How long ago was that? Roe vs. Wade? More than 50 years if I remember correctly. Hundreds of people die each day. I am not just talking about the US. I am talking about the whole planet. I think that would add up. Maybe not 44 million. Close.

So, there is 136 days each year, if you multiply 100 and 136 you'd get 13,600, if you keep going, you'd get a lot of people.

People die for causes that can be stopped. Abortion is a person choice that can't be stopped in most cases. Unless made illegal.

Hmmmm.