quote:

a tumor doesnt have a unique human DNA code......

actually, yes it does. It becomes a tumor because the DNA mutates.

i apologize IKKi14Reed...i was having a bad day i shouldnt have taken it out on you.

i guess i thought you were being sarcastic

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well congrats you can read!

When have I been rude to you, Chrissy? Because that right there was just plain rude.

When I asked the question, I hadn't READ the other thread yet. That's why I said it was answered in another THREAD.

well congrats you can read!

quote:

but i think we established that already.

In another thread.

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When you remove other things from a woman's body, such as a tumor, don't they also "die"?

a tumor doesnt have a unique human DNA code......
but i think we established that already.

*Because Ikki is being lazy and feels like being repetitive*

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a fertilized egg (of a human) has been proven to be human...when you remove it from the womans body, it dies...

When you remove other things from a woman's body, such as a tumor, don't they also "die"?

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I was making an analogy which apparently got lost. Moving on

bad analogy

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Thirdly, you never responded to my suggestion that you change legislation. Are you going to sit there and whine that we're killing babies? And hope that on pure dogma your beliefs will become law?

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That's stupid and childish. Push for legislation. Outline a plan. You're relying on religion to make your laws, which is why Roe v. Wade went the pro-choice way to begin with.

i am not relying on religion....science says it is human at conception, unique human at that.....i feel (not based on my religion) that a human, yes even one that isnt born, deserves "human" rights.....if it is human at conception and an abortion kills it, how is it not murder of a human

quote:

ush for legislation. Outline a plan

maybe i will

You're not RESPONDING. Firstly, I was making an analogy which apparently got lost. Moving on.

Secondly, what? Your second argument makes little sense to me.

Thirdly, you never responded to my suggestion that you change legislation. Are you going to sit there and whine that we're killing babies? And hope that on pure dogma your beliefs will become law?

That's stupid and childish. Push for legislation. Outline a plan. You're relying on religion to make your laws, which is why Roe v. Wade went the pro-choice way to begin with.

quote:

A newborn is not unthinking. You must make the psychological distinction between unthinking, sensation, and perception. Unthinking is a fertilized egg. It has no possible way of feeling anything. It cannot feel, perceive, or transmit information. It is a seed. Crushing a seed is not chopping down a tree, is it?

chopping down a tree isnt the same as killing a human either.....
the last i checked a tree doesnt have a beating heart and the Dna of a human

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Personal experiences are not arguments. They're stories. And though mildly entertaining, still don't answer my question.

a long time ago, no one had documented proof they existed, so were they not people too? how did you get here then?

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WHY, if life begins at conception and deserves acknowledgement, does everything become legitmate when the infant pops out?

because a judge came along and decided to make a law saying so....

quote:

Originally posted by ChrissyLynn:
my great great grandma had no birth certificate because she was born at home....but try telling her mom she wasnt a person because she had no certificate to say so.....flawed....major

Personal experiences are not arguments. They're stories. And though mildly entertaining, still don't answer my question.

WHY, if life begins at conception and deserves acknowledgement, does everything become legitmate when the infant pops out?

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a newborn is "unthinking" not self aware, neither are some mentally challenged.

A newborn is not unthinking. You must make the psychological distinction between unthinking, sensation, and perception. Unthinking is a fertilized egg. It has no possible way of feeling anything. It cannot feel, perceive, or transmit information. It is a seed. Crushing a seed is not chopping down a tree, is it?

Sensation, which is what a newborn has, is the ability to feel something, anything. A doctor's hand, the instrusive tube up their nose, etc. The raw basics of life.

Perception, what you and I have, and what we develop from the birth on, is the ability to interpret this information. To think, make decisions, etc.


We give rights to a child the day it is birthed from its mother's womb. You want to change that? You don't build a Colosseum from the top down. Try for legislation that requires a certificate of ...I don't know..life the moment a woman finds she's pregnant.

If you can legally prove that a zygote is a "person" with rights, THEN you can ban the "murder" of those zygotes.

Legally is not your stepmother's aunt's husband's mistress's life story, mind you. Legal. Legislation.

Otherwise, your points are moot and completely religiously-based. And religion is not legislation.

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You also didn't address any of my questions from my previous post. If you do not acknowledge a "life" via birth certificate, birthday, tax form, christening, when this "person" is an unthinking, unfeeling mass of cells and DNA, then how does it earn rights?

my great great grandma had no birth certificate because she was born at home....but try telling her mom she wasnt a person because she had no certificate to say so.....flawed....major

a newborn is "unthinking" not self aware, neither are some mentally challenged.

you should earn human rights when you become one, that is at conception....

If rights begin at conception, do you count a first trimester baby on your census?

You also didn't address any of my questions from my previous post. If you do not acknowledge a "life" via birth certificate, birthday, tax form, christening, when this "person" is an unthinking, unfeeling mass of cells and DNA, then how does it earn rights?

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And while I agree that your post is true, that a fertilized egg is a separate organism, saying an abortion is "killing a person" is ludicrous..

why is it ludicrous? a fertilized egg (of a human) has been proven to be human...when you remove it from the womans body, it dies...it was killed

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Unless that organism can survive on its own, (or with some help from equipment for premature births) I don't believe it has rights. So furthermore, its removal cannot be considered murder.

this is where most people debate abortion (even at the government level) , does the human deserve rights......

as i said in another thread, i believe it does deserve rights at conception, because it is an individual in the sence that it has a unique DNA/genetic code, not 100% like the mother or the father....it is individual.

and please dont ask me not to be rude, when in one of your posts addressed to me you said something to the effect of..."dont be sarcastic, it is clashing with your ignorance."



clpo---------------------------------------------------------------------

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can but that doesn't necessarily mean they are willing or able to.

it shouldnt mean the ones that will (rise above it) do not get a chance too.

it is like saying "since 50 of these 100 people will not have a good life, we should kill them all to be safe we save whichever ones "cant" rise above the bad and wont have to suffer through that."
forget the other 50 who will and can.
your backgournd doesnt have to predict your future....

quote:

Originally posted by DrStrangelove:
Ah, to clarify since this was referenced to my post, it has to do with a a unique DNA code, not just genral human DNA. The DNA in your eggs is your own DNA. When that egg is fertilized, it becomes a seperate, heretofor unseen code.

Ooh. I gotcha.

And while I agree that your post is true, that a fertilized egg is a separate organism, saying an abortion is "killing a person" is ludicrous.

Unless that organism can survive on its own, (or with some help from equipment for premature births) I don't believe it has rights. So furthermore, its removal cannot be considered murder.

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Whether life begins at conception or birth is a philisophical question that isn't answered readily by religion OR by science, I'll give you that.

My ovaries contain eggs which have DNA inside them. When I have my period, and I expel that egg, is that a sin, too? That COULD have been life. That contained DNA.

Ah, to clarify since this was referenced to my post, it has to do with a a unique DNA code, not just genral human DNA. The DNA in your eggs is your own DNA. When that egg is fertilized, it becomes a seperate, heretofor unseen code.

I'd also like to say that any biologist will tell you that a seperate organism is formed at conception. Science has agreed on that. That's science's side of it. Everything afterwards is philosophy and morality. I would go further but I just pumped out a whole arguement in the other thread and I'm not up for it.

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and again, dont have sex if you arent ready to accept the consequences

I happen to agree, but there are times when protection fails, and the most readily accepted option in such a case is to abort the fetus. And abort it early.

You seem to have some sort of ideal vision that all people are able to rise above their situations. I believe that all people can but that doesn't necessarily mean they are willing or able to. For instance, both you and your rape-begotten friend were born into less-than-ideal situations, yet you were able to eventually come to lead more or less normal lives, given the original circumstances. However, that doesn't mean everyone will. I take it you don't live in the slums or in the middle of a rather large city? I've seen what it's like in those places. Hope is not something one can easily come by. Abortion is better than most other options in such a place, and taking away that choice can only lead to worse things.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrissyLynn:
they (scientists) already established that at conception it is human....it has the DNA makeup of a human, perhaps you should read Dr.strangelove's post in "your say in government"......
http://boards.youthnoise.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7964084503/m/29210798963

Whether life begins at conception or birth is a philisophical question that isn't answered readily by religion OR by science, I'll give you that.

My ovaries contain eggs which have DNA inside them. When I have my period, and I expel that egg, is that a sin, too? That COULD have been life. That contained DNA.

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your the one that dragged that back into the conversation.....with...

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that ALL other children's lives will be the same?

...I was just trying not to be repetitive for your sake so you didn't have to answer the same argument twice. Stop being so rude.

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really, cause i believe you pulled the "it isnt human" crap from the same place.....

I have a few questions for you. Do you grieve when you menstruate and lose your egg? Would you hold a funeral for a miscarriage in the first trimester? Do you christen your child when the egg is fertilized? Do you make the birth certificate, the symbol of that baby's rights as a human, as an American, after you realize you're carrying some extra DNA? ..Do you celebrate your child's birthday on the day sperm was thrust into your uterus?

Just a few questions to ponder.

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maybe you shouldnt have had sex if you werent ready for the concequences.

I don't have to explain how I live my life to you, and especially not to my government. Having sex is not illegal. Conceiving a child by accident is not illegal. Having abortions should not be illegal. It. Is. Not. Your. Business.

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my freind was the result of a rape, so in his case both parents didnt want him, he moved above it went to college.....etc.

Good for him. So, in your logic, a few success stories means every child should be born into this world?

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It's not a human. It's cells with the POTENTIAL to be a human.

they (scientists) already established that at conception it is human....it has the DNA makeup of a human, perhaps you should read Dr.strangelove's post in "your say in government"......
http://boards.youthnoise.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7964084503/m/29210798963

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No, it very much does matter. Because in religion, life begins at conception. In most scientific circle, it does not begin until the fetus is a semi-independent if not fully independent organism.

nope as i said above, try again.....

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I believe clpo addressed this point. No need to flog a dead horse.

your the one that dragged that back into the conversation.....with...

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that ALL other children's lives will be the same?

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Really, half? That sounds an awful like a number you pulled out of your ***, which doesn't fly here.

really, cause i believe you pulled the "it isnt human" crap from the same place.....

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If I don't feel capable of having a child I conceived by accident, and neither does my partner, then is it fair that you barge into my life via law and DEMAND I bring this child into the over-populated world?

maybe you shouldnt have had sex if you werent ready for the concequences.

clpo...

quote:

Your story warms my heart. The fact of the matter is, you had one parent who did want you. Compare that to a prostitute that depends on sex for a living (kind of hard when you're pregnant), doesn't even know or care who the father is, and can't support a child. Or a teenage girl who had protected sex with her boyfriend and got pregnant, when neither of them wanted a child.

and again, dont have sex if you arent ready to accept the consequences

my freind was the result of a rape, so in his case both parents didnt want him, he moved above it went to college.....etc.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrissyLynn:
who are you to decide to take another humans life?

It's not a human. It's cells with the POTENTIAL to be a human. So what I do with ANYTHING inside my body is my business.

Say we elect a President who believes that cancerous tumors are ...sacred tumors of divine cells. (I know that's preposterous, stay with me.) And this President passes a law that, because he and his administration believe this, removing cancerous tumors are against the law.

If you contracted breast cancer, you would not be able to remove it. Is that fair?

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lets get one thing straight right now, i am against abortion not only because of my religion i am because you are removing a human being from a womans body, ultimatly killing it.....
it wouldnt matter what religion i was or wasnt, the principal is still the same.

No, it very much does matter. Because in religion, life begins at conception. In most scientific circles, it does not begin until the fetus is a semi-independent if not a fully independent organism.

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no, not all childrens life will turn out the same....some will be bad, but just as i told clpo, if you want to use that mentality, we all should have been aborted, *just in case* our life wasnt good.

I believe clpo addressed this point. No need to flog a dead horse.

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i think it is rather self absorded when a woman ends the life of an unborn child because she "doesnt want a baby right now"

Again, you don't know that's the case for everyone.

They can't get rid of welfare just because someone abuses it, because there are ALWAYS people with legitimate problems.

You can't refuse an emphysema patient treatment simply because you think smoking is wrong and they brought it upon themself.

By the way, I spelled self-absorbed for you, and yet you managed to mangle that word. Good thing your kids have public education.

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well its not fair to assume they sit in therapy crying all their lives either....if that was the case half the population would be in therapy because they were "accidents"

Really, half? That sounds an awful like a number you pulled out of your ***, which doesn't fly here.

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but you are right i guess, i would much rather be dead and have no life than to have a life that is less than perfect.....

Sarcasm is clashing with your ignorance. It's really not attractive.

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almost everyone i know has an aspect of their life they are not thrilled with....but it doesnt mean they wish they were never born.

Some people do. If I don't feel capable (emotionally and/or financially) of having a child I conceived by accident, and neither does my partner, then is it fair that you barge into my life via law and DEMAND I bring this child into the over-populated world?