quote:

ohh but i see your point, being dead is much better than living on a budget....

No, but being dead is much better than living a life of crime to support your crack addict because you can't stand to live in the hell you've been thrown into because your mom didn't have an abortion.

That's the harsh reality right there.

God. We don't need 1.3 million more americans. Maybe it's God's plan for those lives to not happen, if you believe in religion at all.

Because Ikki is not in a good mood the following will be harsher than it needs to be:

Abort73.com is NOT a site I view as being reputable because it is biased towards the pro-life side. Because of that, if you give me a site, I will only accept it as worthy if it is reputable and unbiased. That said, all pro-choicers are also forewarned that I will not accept planned parenthood or any biased towards pro-choice site as worthy if I ever start debating you. In conclusion:

Chrissy, show me a better site that supports your data before I continue debating you.

quote:

the person not "feeling" there is another option, does not mean there isnt one.
if she thinks that she "would have no other option" she shouldnt have had sex.

Do you always weigh out EVERY circumstance before you do something? And do you always accept teh consequences? And what if the woman is not physical, mentally, or emotionally able to carry a child to term due to some thing we know not of? Bottom line: I don't give a **** about what happens to people in the ****ing womb because I don't know people's ****ing situations. And until I see an improvement on conditions OUTSIDE of the womb, and an improvement in teaching contraception, I'm all for abortions.

Finally, if everyone cares so ****ing much about fetuses, then ****ing become surrogates and take the child out of one womb and put them in yours.

And yes, I will probably disagree with what I wrote in 2 minutes, so if you find the need to yell at me, don't.

quote:

Abortion sounds a lot more palatable than that.

not in my opinion.
that is 1.3 milion more humans who had no chance at life, that is 1.3 million more who were disposed of like a piece of garbage.

quote:

1.3 million more people who probably would end up below the poverty line.

ohh but i see your point, being dead is much better than living on a budget....

Your site says that 1.3 million fetuses are aborted per year. Now imagine that those 1.3 million fetuses hadn't been aborted. That's 1.3 million more mouths to feed. 1.3 million more people to provide with shelter and care. 1.3 million more people who probably would end up below the poverty line.

Abortion sounds a lot more palatable than that.

quote:

Not always. Sometimes circumstances happen where the person feels there is no other option, or can't find another option.

the person not "feeling" there is another option, does not mean there isnt one.
if she thinks that she "would have no other option" she shouldnt have had sex.
and before you throw "RAPE" into the mix.....only 1% of abortions are the result of rape.....
you should go to this site (my source by the way) and see some of the pictures of the aborted babies....

http://www.abort73.com

quote:

Sometimes abortions are had to end suffering, NOT to avoid responsibility. And for all any of us know, plugs could be pulled to avoid responsibility instead of avoiding suffering.

i am not saying i am opposed to abortion if it saves the mothers life, like a situation where the fetus and mother would die if an abortion didnt take place....example: a tubal pregnancy...(where the fertalized egg plants in the fallopian tube and not the uterus.

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the "aborter" did not even give their child a chance at life, so it is their fault the child died......

Not always. Sometimes circumstances happen where the person feels there is no other option, or can't find another option.

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pulling the plug to end suffering is a lot different than pulling the plug to aviod responsibility.

Sometimes abortions are had to end suffering, NOT to avoid responsibility. And for all any of us know, plugs could be pulled to avoid responsibility instead of avoiding suffering.

the "aborter" did not even give their child a chance at life, so it is their fault the child died......

ususally kids on life support have been dealt a terrible circumstance.....and it isnt the parents fault.

quote:

And wouldn't you feel them every day even if they were not physically there?

that is what the aborter chose.....so the fact that they have to "carry it around" on thier mind....

well suck it up.....that is what THEY decided.

pulling the plug to end suffering is a lot different than pulling the plug to aviod responsibility.

quote:

with an abortion you dont have to carry them, give birth to them, love them, feed them, clothe them, nuture them, be with them every day, make decisions for them, support them, teach them......the list goes on and on....

Just because they're not there does not mean that the person doesn't think about them and carry them around still.

If one of your children was on life support and you decided to pull the cord instead of waiting for a infitesimal chance, would you think that was the easy way out? And wouldn't you feel them every day even if they were not physically there?

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know that it is easier to have an abortion than to have the child? Both are life changing events and life changing events never seem to be "easy."

i have 2 children......i take care of them everyday....no easy task by any streach of the imagination.
with an abortion you dont have to carry them, give birth to them, love them, feed them, clothe them, nuture them, be with them every day, make decisions for them, support them, teach them......the list goes on and on....

quote:

but it is a lot easier to just "get rid" of the problem than it is to own up to it.

In your opinion. I know I've not had an abortion so I can't say for sure what goes through their heads. But how do you know that it is easier to have an abortion than to have the child? Both are life changing events and life changing events never seem to be "easy."

quote:

Can someone tell me what's easy about making the decision to have an abortion or not?

Anyone?

quote:

But it's still a heavy decision to make that, for most people, would take considerable thought and weighing of the outcomes, is it not?

if the girl finds the decision hard to make it usually means she knows she is killing another life, it is hard because she knows that fetus/embryo could someday be another human, and not "just" another human....her child, her flesh and blood.

but it is a lot easier to just "get rid" of the problem than it is to own up to it.

quote:

For many people it's a hell of a lot easier to decide to kill the child than carry it full term. That's what's so easy about it.

But it's still a heavy decision to make that, for most people, would take considerable thought and weighing of the outcomes, is it not?

quote:

Originally posted by rito:
Can someone tell me what's easy about making the decision to have an abortion or not?

Anyone?

For many people it's a hell of a lot easier to decide to kill the child than carry it full term. That's what's so easy about it.

quote:

Abortion has now become the easy way out

Can someone tell me what's easy about making the decision to have an abortion or not?

Anyone?

Man, you sound exactly like those pro-life ***holes who were bugging me at the mall today.

"Jesus loves you!"
"Get an effing life!"

quote:

God can heal your mind
God will heal your body
and God will heal your soul
God will heal you

God has nothing to do with it.

the scalple is coming after our children
where life begins is now only ditruction
the womb is on fire
and our desire is for freedom of choice
but who gets the choice
not the young life at the end of the umbilical
we come up with reasons to kill our unborn that's superficial
we use abortion tactics as birth control
i think we need to use some self control
and where does God come into the picture
well since God reveals himself in scripture
Psalms 127:3
sons are a heritage from the Lord
and children are a reward from Him
how do we thank God for this gift?
we call it gelitan
oh it's not alive
and then we scrape it out
we burn it out
we flush it
we dismember it
we pull it out by the back of the head
and stab it in the neck
what was that?
that was anger
and why am i angry?
cause if my mom had aborted me i wouldn't have the chance to be a fadMC!
and what if ur mom had aborted u?
what's wrong with the people that take a gift from God's hand
kill it and then put it in a trash can
they call us generation X but i think we're X-ing out our next generation
i said they call us generation X but i think we're X-ing out our next generation
but it's all right to choose that's what they say
well your rights become wrong when your wrongs become your rights
freedom of choice but i'd rather choose freedom
and God gives me that freedom
for all you ladies out there God can heal your womb and direct you on the right path
and for all of you
God can heal your mind
God will heal your body
and God will heal your soul
God will heal you

Abortion has now become the easy way out.. why? because u can have unsafe sex and make a kid that u didn't want in the first place and just kill it cause u just wanted better sex.... now how does that seem right?

Ok guys, posted my opinion in another thread but got a dissapointing lack of response. It addresses most of the points you guys are going over, so I'm reposting it here:

quote:

"how are you going to tell me that a small group of cells that resemble NOTHING is human?"

Unique DNA code combined with the fact that it is the normal, natural process of human sexual reproduction. How is that NOT human? What makes a human? It's not a face, it's not a beating heart, it's none of that. It's the DNA code and replecating cells. That's the real definition of what makes something "human".
And it's seperated from, say, a clump of skin cells in that it is a stage in the reproductive process. Conception is the key turning point, when a unique DNA code is created and the first mitosis is set in motion. After that there is little difference, morally, between a zygote and an infant. Just the stage of development.
I am not talking about physical differences, I'm talking about moral differences. You cannot define "human" as a certain stage of development or mental awareness because it will have far reaching implications that stretch well past birth itself. Once you set a non-genetic standard for what is human, you can justify all sorts of atrocities. Eugenics anyone?
That is why your argument is flawed, unless you're willing to say that selective killing is ok past birth. Skins cells are not a zygote. There's a clear moral difference.

Inconvience to the mother, or the argument that "the child will have a bad life anyway" are weak as well. If, scientifically (and in this case, therefore morally), a seperate life starts at conception, there is also no difference between the zygote and the infant. You cannot kill a baby if you suddenly can't pay to feed it, or it keeps you from going to college. And you can't go up to a homeless man and kill him because "the rest of his life will suck anyway".

This is why you should't be "for abortion in every circumstance". That's just naive and overly simplistic. Which in my opinion is a dangerous thing when you're talking about something as heavy as human life.

Abortion in the case where it saves the life of the mother, there is precedence and reason to allow the procedure. It saves one life where otherwise both would be lost. Think siamese twins, where one must be killed to sacrifice the other.

Rape is a fuzzy issue. Morally we recoil from the idea of causing even more and much worse long-term-grief for the victim, however morally the conceived child is no different than any other. There are a few situations like this, and that is why I still think that abortion should be an option BEFORE THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE. It's a type of mercy killing, which I beleive is morally allowable in some situations, but only where there is absolutely no other option. Therefore, abortion should only be used in extreme circumstances where it is the only option. Once the child can be removed from the womb and there be a chance of it's survival, abortion should not be prohibited. Even in the cases of rape. The mother can still "get rid of" the child, without killing it.

quote:

You may consider it immoral, but morality is based on the individual

I dispute this. I beleive that morality in human society should be based on a natural law involving human nature and the order of life in general. And maybe a few tinges of intellectual concept. We're not totally objective, etheral beings, and therefore our actions are not totally relative. That's why absolute moral reletavism doesn't work.


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quote:

Good points, but I'd like to raise a question. Can a fetus, at any stage really be called human because it has the physical traits of a human being? The reason I don't consider abortion murder is because I don't consider it a killing, it's just a 'removal'. Quite frankly, the fetus at all stages before birth, exhibits parasitic behavior. (sustaining it's own life off of the host while contributing nothing to the host's survival)

This may seem like a pessimistic view, but that's how I honestly see it. In other words, it's up to the mother, and there's nothing morally wrong with it.

I've heard that parasite analogy alot. Basically I've rejected it because the fetus is not a parasite, even though it exhibits *some* traits. Notice the emphasis on some. While the fetus doesn't contribute to the mother's body, placental development is a natural process in the sexual reproduction of mammals. So if you still want to call it a parasite, then think of it this way: A human is naturally a parasite during early stages of development, and nevertheless it is human.

Returning to the siamese twin analogy: One siamese twin can be a "parasite" of the other, relying on certain vital organs in the other twin. However, one twin cannot legally (or morally) kill the other, it's still classified as murder.

End

So basically, I've adressed the key issues: Rape, What if the mother's life is threatened?, the "parasite" analogy, and provided what (I think) is pretty strong philosophical evidence that a zygote is effectively human enough to be comparable to an infant, and therefore a full grown adult.

Please also note that I never invoked the Bible or any other "divine law", and also did not call for the total prohibition of abortion. Anyone have any thoughts?