I personally don't think I would ever be capable of having an abortion. But I can't judge the women who decide to practice it in case of rape or serious risk of death. I have never been in that situation myself and so I don't know what it is to go through that. I know that it truly must be traumatic to go through rape. And then to have to give birth to a child from that incident must be one of the hardest things a woman could do. This is a very complicated subject in my opinion because you have to consider both sides, the mother and the unborn child; the mothers right to decide over her body and the unborns' right to life. When does a fetus aquire right to life, who can truly decide?

Yeah. I agree with Maya.

conflictingzest, even though I disagree with everything you said(I believe women should have the choice and all that) I think it's interesting that you said this:

"I know that it would be an incredibly hard thing to do and i'm not judging anyone"

You are I think the first person that I've seen who's against abortion but is willing to accept that there are circumstances that you do not know and therefore do not judge, so thanks for that.

Now I'm not going to answer all your other points because other people have already done that and it would just be a repitition.

quote:

And maybe this child is what that 13 yr old mother needs to get her act together?

Now, no offence to any tenage mothers, I doubt having a child will get their act together, only make their life harder.

quote:

but in all truth the child deserves a chance. His specific sperm cell did survive all the rigors of getting to the egg and then also got into the egg, he's obviously got a fighter spirit so give him a chance.

Just because a sperm cell gets into an egg does not mean that the resulting child will have a "fighter spirit". I know a few people who wouldn't last three minutes if they had to fend for themssleves.

Conflictingzest:
A) The hunting thing won't work for me, I hunt. Sorry if that bothers you but whatever... I also doubt very much that we're so very special but that's a whole other topic so let's not get in to that.
B)So, using your definition of "child," any woman is a murderer because when a girl has her period she's "killing" an egg that could someday have been a child? Are you getting my point? I'm not trying to convince you to personally get an abortion or anything, I'm just trying to get you to understand our point of view.

LTR:
Right on.

affanculo:
Very true, especially seeing as now that celebrities have been adopting foreign babies.

clpo:
Thanks for the FYI, I never really thought about that.

Kate:
Even if it takes years to adopt 'cause there are more parents than kids it doesn't chance that there are a lot of kids in foster families who get separated from siblings and generally have a messed up life.

I'm not talking about torturing animals, i'm talking like hunting or w/e. The fact is that humans are different, even special if you will, because we have conscience and judgement, etc...


The Mother should have to carry the child because it's now a human being. why should the child have to die because it's father was a rapist? because the mothers feelings should be more important than another persons life? i don't think so, like i said "I know that it would be an incredibly hard thing to do and i'm not judging anyone" but also the child shouldn't have to die for the sins of his father. who knows, given the chance the mother might even grow to love the child?

quote:

Now don't really care if you kill animals but when you start doing that to ppl, it's not right.

Thats sick. Its disquesting when people makes themselves seem better than animals. What makes you so friggen special?

oh wait I mean ppl.

quote:

Rape victims admittedly are special cases but i dare say that even they shouldn't be aborted, why should the child pay for the sins of his father?

Why should the mother have to give birth to this child let alone carry it around for 9 months? Doesn't the way the mother feel count for anything?

what are we but a clump of cells? that's a terrible defense against what abortion really is: killing a child. It's like breaking a fertilized egg on the ground and saying "Oh, it's just a clump of cells" it's not it was going to hatch and you just killed it (i know i used to work in an eg hatchery). Now don't really care if you kill animals but when you start doing that to ppl, it's not right.
And maybe this child is wha tthat 13 yr old mother needs to get her act together? Rape victims admittedly are special cases but i dare say that even they shouldn't be aborted, why should the child pay for the sins of his father? I know that it would be an incredibly hard thing to do and i'm not judging anyone who has gotten an abortion (even one that hasn't been raped) but in all truth the child deserves a chance. His specific sperm cell did survive all the rigors of getting to the egg and then also got into the egg, he's obviously got a fighter spirit so give him a chance.

Still, most people want to adopt kids who aren't of American, kids from other countries.

quote:

There are a lot of kids in orphanages

Actually, we don't have orphanages in the United States. I only recently learned that when I tried to give that explanation to my girlfriend (who's very much against abortion). Most, if not all orphans in the United States are put in foster homes before being adopted into a permanent family.

(However, after doing a bit of research, it seems that there are a few orphanages remaining in the United States, such as one in Omaha, Nebraska. But it's clear that most orphans go to foster homes.)

Just a bit of FYI.

quote:

There are a lot of kids in orphanages and who don't have very good lives.

That's not really true. There are more people who want to adopt than kids to be adopted. It takes years to adopt a kid in the US.

Hmm...

I'm not really sure of my position on abortion. There are a lot of kids in orphanages and who don't have very good lives. It would be a good thing have less kids like that in the world.

But it's not such a good thing to not even give the kid a chance at life. He/she might turn out to be something great, or end up with a horrible life. You never know unless you give them a chance at life.

*sigh*

I'm not really for abortion, but I definetely think the government should stay out of it. It's a personal choice...

quote:

Originally posted by conflictingzest:
Horselover,
I believe i was very clear that though i believe adoption is a better choice but only through a reformed adoption system. There is definitely room to improve on the whole issue.
Also the fact is, if the child lives it at least has a chance in life. Instead of just killing it and getting it out of the way, the child at least has a chance to survive and improve it's situation. Even if it is harder it still has the chance.

I also believe i was very clear on the education aspect of abortion instead of an outright ban. I think that girls should be well versed in the aftermath of an abortion and the potential other options before doing anything. Right now soo many girls and parents think it's the only choice but it's not.

Alright now, I won't deny that in many cases adoption would be a better choice if the system was improved. However that leaves the small problem that the system isn't likely to improve enough in the near future. Until you can get the system working properly, what are we going to do with the kids? And I still say that a 13 year old girl or a rape victim should not be made to go through a pregnancy, period.

Yes if it was allowed to develop and be born it would have a "chance" but statistically, it's chances aren't going to be good if it's born to a teenage or drug addict mom. Sure there are success stories, but there are a hell of a lot more failures. Besides, if you have an abortion then you erase the possibility of it suffering.

I don't think we're ever going to reach an agreement so long as you insist that abortion is murder. It is NOT murder. Murder is killing something alive, abortions "kill" clumps of cells. Late term is more debatable, granted.

I agree with you on the education, however I seriously doubt that there are many girls who think abortion is the "only choice." The stigma against it would suggest the opposite. And I think that the risks, while they do exist, are often exaggerated.

Horselover,
I believe i was very clear that though i believe adoption is a better choice but only through a reformed adoption systeml. There is definitely room to improve on the whole issue.
Also the fact is, if the child lives it atleast has a chance in life. Instead of just killing it and getting it out of the way, the child at least has a chance to survive and improve it's situation. Even if it is harder it still has the chance.

I also believe i was very clear on the education aspect of abortion instead of an outright ban. I think that girls should be well versed in the aftermath of an abortion and the potential other options before doing anything. Right now soo many girls and parents think it's the only choice but it's not.

quote:

Originally posted by clpo13:

quote:

Clpo, haven't you pounded some sense in to them yet?

I try, but these newbies seem to be more resistant to my sarcastic charms.

Well I find that hard to believe, you sure you haven't gone soft on us now?

BTW, excellent points affanculo.

quote:

Originally posted by Kate127:

quote:

And when the protection fails?

What if a drunk driver hits your car? You didn't do anything wrong but you're still dead. Sometimes the unexpected happens, and you have to deal with it.

I agree if I got pregnant right now I'd deal with it by having an abortion.

quote:

Clpo, haven't you pounded some sense in to them yet?

I try, but these newbies seem to be more resistant to my sarcastic charms.

What about when the mother knows that the baby has a defect? Shouldn't she have the right to have an abortion then? Or would you prefer for the child to go through life in a constant uphill struggle, being made fun of everyday? Also. Is ruining the life of one being justified by saving another. By making a teenage mother dropout of school and have to live on wellfare justified by not having an abortion? Besides the fact that the child will already be at a disadvanteage because it comes from living in hard condiions....

Are you people still on about abortion? Clpo, haven't you pounded some sense in to them yet?

Conflictingzest, your "ill effects" exist sure, but what about the ill effects of being pregnant and giving birth at 13? Don't tell me that that's a bundle of laughs. Or how about the ill effects of being raised by some moron young girl who didn't want to give her baby up for adoption? Sure, some teenage mothers are just fine mothers, but most of them raise kids in less than ideal conditions. And a lot of people don't want to give their kid up for adoption. I'm not saying abortion should be as easy to get as condoms, but we need it to be available.

I know, I know, Everyone LOVES to hear my views... SO here they are:

1. Abortion is murder

2. Adoption is the better choice

3. we need to reform the adoption program (as we all know it sucks)

4. If you're going to use the whole "it's going to be a person" debate prepare for some devil's advocate (like me) to come along and say "What about masterbation?"

5. Quit throwing this whole "That's your opinion" crap around guys, that's a lame argument. It's assumed it's my opinion seeing as how that's what's asked for in the title. If your going to use that as a defence, don't even bother posting because everything you post is your decision.

6. You can't deny the ill effects of abortion on women as well as the child. Between depression and cysts and infection and everything else that can go wrong to add on top of that the killing of a child. you can make your own decision.

7. I believe in propper education before outright banning.