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Originally posted by Nephilem:
That response really does not stand because it does not matter if they are a US citizen or Not. If a citizen of another country is killed in the US, it is still the responsibility of US law enforce meant to solve the crime.

Who solves the crime is irrelevant; a citizen of another country is still a CITIZEN of a country. They exist in this world, and someone has a record of it, and they are not only protected by their respective country's laws, but ours. A fetus is not protected because they literally don't exist. Not yet.

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Also a person who can be charged with killing an unborn baby. If he adults the mother and causes the death of her baby the attacker can be charged with Murder.

That's a questionable law used only to lengthen sentences for murderers (e.g. Scott Peterson.) It almost has nothing to do with the "unborn baby's" life, and moreso with using the judicial system to keep murderers behind bars longer. Don't pay attention to judicial tricks, they do nothing for a pro-life argument.

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Well a large number of abortions occur after three months.

That's actually a myth. "At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
"52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy."

11% happen after 3 months, according to this stupid-ass pro-life website. (They of course, do not give reason. Most post-12 week abortions are because the baby poses a large threat to the life of the mother.)

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Where are you getting this?

Hears a number for partial birth abortions.

3,000-5,000 (in 1997, by Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers)

Also the Portland Press herald said that 77 percent of abortions take place after the fetal heart beat has begun, which happens in the first month.

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Well a large number of abortions occur after three months.

Where are you getting this?

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So, an unborn fetus doesn't apply..'cos they weren't "born" or "naturalized" in the US

That response really does not stand because it does not matter if they are a US citizen or Not. If a citizen of another country is killed in the US, it is still the responsibility of US law enforce meant to solve the crime. Also a person who can be charged with killing an unborn baby. If he adults the mother and causes the death of her baby the attacker can be charged with Murder.

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I also know you meant put up for adoption, not abortion, so I won't go there.

Thank you.

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(outside of removing the fetus after 3 or 4 months)

Well a large number of abortions occur after three months.

I'm just saying that adoption is not an ideal situation. Living in a home is rough, and you don't get the emotional support or care that kids need. It can be really difficult for kids growing up in the system to become productive, the odds are stacked against them.

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Originally posted by Nephilem:
During abortion you are killing a little baby.

We'll never agree on that. That's the main argument. However, I've got the Constitution on my side.

Let's say I agree a fetus is an "unborn" person. Then the rights of the Constitution (the rights that apply to everyone in this country)) don't apply. They apply to, and I quote, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

So, an unborn fetus doesn't apply..'cos they weren't "born" or "naturalized" in the US

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They don’t have to handle the baby they can put the baby up for abortion. And I will say again Overpopulation is not a major threat that is threatening mankind. It is wrong to kill babies in the name of stopping overpopulation.

I was just making a point, I know overpopulation isn't a huge concern. (It is up there, though.) I also know you meant put up for adoption, not abortion, so I won't go there. Adoption is a great option, yes, but foster homes and the adoption programs in the US are always struggling to keep their heads afloat with lax federal standards, defunct social workers, a too-high demand for appropriate foster homes, and rampant abuse of the foster care system.

In my opinion, if you want an abortion, there is no reason (outside of removing the fetus after 3 or 4 months) that anyone should be able to stop you. No law, and no religion. And definitely no combination of the two.

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adoption is just another whole problem to itself

So what is your solution?
Granted it would be better if a people did not have sex unless they were planning to have a baby. That would still leave open the rape situation, but if the adoption system was not flooded with babies that people simply did not want, it would be able to handle the other babies.

lol neph, you really must know there are enough kids out there who don't have homes.. adoption is just another whole problem to itself, living in a home is not cool, its much better to have a child that is wanted and cared for.

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They don’t have to handle the baby they can put the baby up for abortion.

Hahahaha!

Now you are thinking.

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Abortion does not apply to little babies. It applies to zygotes, fetuses, and small I-could-turn-into-anything-because-I-cannot-think-or-feel little organisms.

During abortion you are killing a little baby.

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There are enough children overpopulating this world who were mistakes made by stupid people. And personally, if you're too dumb to utilize simple things like birth control, you're too stupid to handle a child.

They don’t have to handle the baby they can put the baby up for abortion. And I will say again Overpopulation is not a major threat that is threatening mankind. It is wrong to kill babies in the name of stopping overpopulation.

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That is what you say. Not what everyone says.

My point was based on that statement! Those are the arguments that I use so it is pointless to argue with someone who has stated that they condone murder, and who does not care about the suffering of the mothers.

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would have little problem with that, but to be lawful is to keep order in society.

Laws are not just to keep order they are also for the defense of people. Laws against murder are there to help protect people. The same should go for abortion. These are innocent babies that can not defend themselves, and they should also have defense.

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The only real questions here is whether you believe murder is wrong or not, or who in society do you believe should be murdered and who shouldn't.

Murder is wrong. Abortion is wrong. But I can't impose my beliefs on them. Laws are there to keep order, and making abortion illegal would ensue chaos. I would have little problem with that, but to be lawful is to keep order in society. I don't impose my family beliefs on other people. I don't impose my spiritual beliefs on other people. And I will be damned again if I impose my moral beliefs on them.

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That is what you say. Not what everyone says.

I had a really awesome, but mean, answer to that comment, but I'll control myself... This time.

Anyway, we can go back and forth with that nonsense until the cows come home. We need to worry about scientific facts, not "opinions". According to scientific fact: Unborn babies can feel pain. Unborn babies are obviously human. Unborn babies are alive. According to law, the taking of a human life is murder. Therefore, Abortion is murder.

End.

The only real questions here is whether you believe murder is wrong or not, or who in society do you believe should be murdered and who shouldn't.

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Well what do people say about abortion? That it is murder, and that it is detrimental to the mother.

That is what you say. Not what everyone says.

I'm heartless. I care about individuals, generally not about people. I have the uncanny ability to completely seperate myself from a situation, or immerse myself in it, though the latter usually isn't a choice.

But as a side note, I do not approve of murder.

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God forbid someone has a different opinion.

Well what do people say about abortion? That it is murder, and that it is detrimental to the mother. Well if the person that you are talking to condones murder and does not care about the mothers suffering, then debating abortion is useless. Instead we would first have to debate if murder is wrong and go down a whole list of other such side topics.

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I bring it up because if you condone murder it is pointless to argue about abortion.

God forbid someone has a different opinion.

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Yes. How many times do I have to say it? Get the picture. This has nothing to do with abortion anyway, so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

I bring it up because if you condone murder it is pointless to argue about abortion.

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raises eyebrow* You're talking to someone who isn't exactly happy with people as it is, so... what's your point?

Regardless of your feelings about humans, I would expect most people to feel some level of sorrow for the victims and the families of the victims in the tragic incident that I referenced. If you don’t then you have clearly reached a point of almost total desensitizing, and it is basically useless arguing about abortion and murder.

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Go to the link that I provided watch the video, look at the pictures, and then remember that Jenos sees the same thing and is happy.

*raises eyebrow* You're talking to someone who isn't exactly happy with people as it is, so... what's your point?

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Just so you know that is not what comes across based on your previous posts.

Well, I just told you otherwise.

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So you want to express approval of the actions of a killer?

Yes. How many times do I have to say it? Get the picture. This has nothing to do with abortion anyway, so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.