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, I think it's not about weighing(sp?) the goodness of the effects, rather it's about the mothers right to her own body.

Okay how many times am I going to have to say this? The baby is not part of the mothers Body. The baby has a right to life, and the mother just can’t decide that she wants to have the baby killed. The issue is not what the mothers do to their body; the issue is what they are doing to their babies.

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Do you think women enjoy having abortions?

No I don’t. This is why I am saying that abortions are bad for everyone. The saddest thing is that these innocent babies are the ones who are paying the price for something they wert even part of.

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How did it go? I fucking hate the SATs, so fucking LONG! I think that's what makes it really hard, the fact that it's so long and boring, you have to make an effort just to stay awake.

I was better then I was better then I thought it was going to be when I went in. We had the best test monitor that I have ever had. Other then that it was typical SAT misery. The length is horrible, especially since you have next to no breaks; my neck was so messed up.

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Sorry I don't want to get too off topic but I just find it ridiculous that you support the fucking Iraq war, and call yourself pro-life.

Okay as I said I believe that the war was justified, however I don’t think that what we did was smart. Basically something had to be done, but I think that we did the wrong thing. Just hit key targets and be done, don’t go in and get bogged down in rebuilding. The same thing happened with the Vietnam War. They got bogged down. Finally when we decided we had to leave the US unleashed an enormous air attack against their war effort that did more damage in one week then the entire 9 years of bombing up to that point? One week did more then 9 years! If we had done that at the beginning of the war, it never would have developed into such a mess. So I support military action, I just don’t like our current way of fighting.

I never called my self pro life. The problem I have with abortion is that it is killing innocent babies that can’t defend themselves.

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Obviously not, if you did you would not believe it is your right to force them to have a child. At least don't lie.

Try to look at the situation from the perspective of the child. The baby also has rights, and it is wrong to just kill the baby because it is more convenient for the parents. I realize that they have problems, but that does not mean that they should be permitted to have their baby killed.

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But the negative effects far outweigh the positive things. Basically it is better if abortion is avoided.

You use all these relative terms "negative" "positive" "good and bad" like there's one clear definition that we all agree on. You think the negative effects outweigh the positive ones, I think it's not about weighing(sp?) the goodness of the effects, rather it's about the mothers right to her own body.

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The child is not the one who should be the one targeted

Do you think women enjoy having abortions?

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I had the SAT today

How did it go? I fucking hate the SATs, so fucking LONG! I think that's what makes it really hard, the fact that it's so long and boring, you have to make an effort just to stay awake.

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I would say that the Iraq war was justified; however I would not have recommended stationing any troops in the country. That country is not ready for our help; therefore we should not try to fix their country. You can’t help someone that hates you. So I would say that we should have defiantly launched strikes at Iraq, possibly even launch an assassination of Saddam, but we should not have gone in.

This is what I was afraid of. Lets reflect on what happened. When the war started, the reason was that Iraq had (supposedly) WMD and they posed a threat to us, now it's the whole democracy thing that you're alluding to. In which case how can it be justified to kill thousands of people? Look I don't even care if you answer me, just think about it. You're going on and on with this fight against the murder of fetuses while there's a fucking war going on, killing thousands of people for what justifiable reason? Fetuses die in war too you know? Why don't you worry about them instead of bitching about abortion? Sorry I don't want to get too off topic but I just find it ridiculous that you support the fucking Iraq war, and call yourself pro-life. I'm sorry I just don't get how you don't see how stupid that is.

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I do fell empathy for the mothers

Obviously not, if you did you would not believe it is your right to force them to have a child. At least don't lie.

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That doesn't answer the benefits to the mother, who might not be able to support the child.

But the negative effects far outweigh the positive things. Basically it is better if abortion is avoided. There are other ways to deal with unplanned pregnancies then killing the child. The child is not the one who should be the one targeted, as the baby is innocent.

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Sorry for taking so long in responding, I've been kinda' busy lately.

Same here. I had the SAT today so I was busier then usual this past week preparing.

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Okay so lets get specific, the Iraq war... Is it justified? Because they posed a great threat to the US, correct?

I would say that the Iraq war was justified; however I would not have recommended stationing any troops in the country. That country is not ready for our help; therefore we should not try to fix their country. You can’t help someone that hates you. So I would say that we should have defiantly launched strikes at Iraq, possibly even launch an assassination of Saddam, but we should not have gone in.

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The fact that you have an abortion does not mean that you are evil.

Okay and what about the child? The child can be killed just because it is an inconvenient? I do fell empathy for the mothers, and I never said that they are evil. However having an abortion is not the solution. And I don’t want to here that the baby is not a person. It has been scientifically and medically shown that the baby is in fact just that. A live innocent human child.

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The death penalty does not improve order any more than a life sentence would.

Here’s the explanation. The following is from clop 13

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I'm in favor of the death penalty for violent and dangerous criminals on the grounds that they're beyond rehabilitation and will never fit back into society.

So that is why it is acceptable to have the death penalty.

Sorry for taking so long in responding, I've been kinda' busy lately.

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Okay let’s look at the issue of war. Is war a good thing? No it is not.Does this mean I condemn US military action? No it does not and here’s why. War should be avoided if it can be but we don’t always have the option of solving conflicts peacefully, some times we face an enemy that will fight us and we will be faced with an option, fighting back or being passive and watch as everyone is killed.

Okay so lets get specific, the Iraq war... Is it justified? Because they posed a great threat to the US, correct?

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So the fact that you are involved in a war does not mean that you are evil. Sometimes we have to fight,

The fact that you have an abortion does not mean that you are evil. Sometimes you need to have an abortion. Stop being so fucking close minded.

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The line could be drawn between the improve or the destruction of order. So some changes are beneficial, but the negative ones are wrong.

The death penalty does not improve order any more than a life sentence would. Who decides what changes are beneficial and which ones are negative? I think abortions can be very beneficial, whereas you think they're negative, so clear that up for me Neph.

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And you could just as easily kill the babies that would have found the cure to cancer and aids. Guessing at what the baby would turn into is impossible because we can’t predict their future.

That doesn't answer the benefits to the mother, who might not be able to support the child. And don't say "well, she could have just not had sex" because it's not always that easy. Financial situations change. The choice isn't always made to have the kid. No matter what negative effects abortion has, there are still positive effects.

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You could be preventing the birth of a criminal, you could be saving the parents from grief brought on by an extra child. There are positive benefits that most people aren't willing to look at.

And you could just as easily kill the babies that would have found the cure to cancer and aids. Guessing at what the baby would turn into is impossible because we can’t predict their future. However all of the babies are starting out clean and without making any life decisions good or bad. Abortion is killing innocent babies, without them even having the chance to speak in their own defense or to defend themselves physically. Not only that but most of the abortions are in non life threatening situations.

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You are destroying a life, and in most cases not even to save another life. This is not a positive thing.

You could be preventing the birth of a criminal, you could be saving the parents from grief brought on by an extra child. There are positive benefits that most people aren't willing to look at.

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Er, what is why? Because they're less human? If so, then how are they less human and why does that matter?

No my answer was the answer that you gave. That’s why I quoted you right after I said that. Here is what I quoted, sorry that that was unclear.

“I'm in favor of the death penalty for violent and dangerous criminals on the grounds that they're beyond rehabilitation and will never fit back into society.”

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It could be shown that abortion has its benefits.

You are destroying a life, and in most cases not even to save another life. This is not a positive thing.

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Indeed we are different and more developed, but I don't think that makes us special. We're just animals who know how to use tools. But that still doesn't explain why we can't kill each other.

This is why I said that the Christian explanation is better. Following that explanation we are more then just animals. The point of Man being higher then animals really depends on your view on whether or not man is an animal. There are a few things you can say if you are an evolutionists to say that man is superior to animals, but as you stated they really aren’t that strong.

Look at it from this perspective. Was the shooter at VT wrong? Yes, what he did was clearly wrong. The same applies to killing babies. You can speculate about mans relation to animals, but that does not change the fact that it is wrong to kill murder someone.

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But arguing that point will take us directly into the gray area where life begins, which is really the basis of this whole abortion debate.

Despite debates about when life starts the babies that are being killed are forming, and are clearly alive. As I have also stated several babies have actually survived abortion, so yes they are killing a young human.

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This is why they the death penalty is acceptable.

Er, what is why? Because they're less human? If so, then how are they less human and why does that matter?

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The line could be drawn between the improve or the destruction of order. So some changes are beneficial, but the negative ones are wrong.

It could be shown that abortion has its benefits. Not everything is always beneficial (and right) or always destructive (and wrong).

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Because humans are different from animals. From an evolutionary stand point I guess you could say that we are the highest level of development and are therefore special.

Indeed we are different and more developed, but I don't think that makes us special. We're just animals who know how to use tools. But that still doesn't explain why we can't kill each other.

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I oppose abortion because we are dealing with an innocent life that is getting no choice in the course of its life, but is having its life cut of before it is even born.

You could easily be describing the millions of eggs and sperm that never get fertilized. But arguing that point will take us directly into the gray area where life begins, which is really the basis of this whole abortion debate. I really don't want to go there, since agreements on when life starts (or when it starts to matter, at least) are few and far between.

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So what about war Nephilem?

Okay let’s look at the issue of war. Is war a good thing? No it is not. Does this mean I condemn US military action? No it does not and here’s why. War should be avoided if it can be but we don’t always have the option of solving conflicts peacefully, some times we face an enemy that will fight us and we will be faced with an option, fighting back or being passive and watch as everyone is killed. For an example let’s look at WWII. During this war Germany attacked Russia. Now if Russia had not fought back the Germans would have gone on mass killing runs purging Russia of the Russians. Many Russians died during the war but the war was not of their choosing and they had to fight to stay alive. So the fact that you are involved in a war does not mean that you are evil. Sometimes we have to fight, to quote the lord of the rings, the two towers “war is upon you whether you would have it or not.”

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Does that make them less human, then? How does that make them worth killing?

This is why they the death penalty is acceptable.

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I'm in favor of the death penalty for violent and dangerous criminals on the grounds that they're beyond rehabilitation and will never fit back into society.

You will see why I used your explanation in a second.

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Oh, it doesn't always apply. Does it apply only when you want it to, or what? How do you decide what breaks the natural order (and is therefore "bad") and what doesn't?

The line could be drawn between the improve or the destruction of order. So some changes are beneficial, but the negative ones are wrong.

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Also, if we're not arguing order, why is it important to preserve human life? How is it any more "special" than other life? Why is it bad to kill humans (innocent ones, if you prefer) but not other animals?

Because humans are different from animals. From an evolutionary stand point I guess you could say that we are the highest level of development and are therefore special.

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I'm just trying to understand why Nephilem opposes abortion yet favors the death penalty.

I favor the death penalty for the same reason you do. I oppose abortion because we are dealing with an innocent life that is getting no choice in the course of its life, but is having its life cut of before it is even born.

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Originally posted by LoveTheRainbow:
I hope I get pro-life just to mix things up.

What will be your argument?

Slightly off/on topic.

I have to do an abortion debate in my history class. I don't know yet if I will be assigned pro-life or pro-chioce. I hope I get pro-life just to mix things up.

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I'm playing devil's advocate.

As was I, I think this is a case of two demons roasting each other in the dark

A dog with rabies has a disease, and it will die eventually regardless of what we do.

Anyways, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm in favor of the death penalty for violent and dangerous criminals on the grounds that they're beyond rehabilitation and will never fit back into society.

I'm just trying to understand why Nephilem opposes abortion yet favors the death penalty.

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Does that make them less human, then? How does that make them worth killing?

a dog has rabies, does that make it any less a dog? how does that make it worth killing?

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in one case you have dangerous criminals that have demonstrated their willingness to destroy innocent lives.

Does that make them less human, then? How does that make them worth killing?

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I did not say that this always applied, and my main point was under the protection of human life, not order.

Oh, it doesn't always apply. Does it apply only when you want it to, or what? How do you decide what breaks the natural order (and is therefore "bad") and what doesn't?

Also, if we're not arguing order, why is it important to preserve human life? How is it any more "special" than other life? Why is it bad to kill humans (innocent ones, if you prefer) but not other animals?

All I'm going to respond to is this:

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I want the protection of innocent life. The inclusion of innocent is important because it means that killing an aggressor in self defense or such action may be correct.

So what about war Nephilem? Innocent people die in war. Even if they aren't being targeted directly they do die, and it shouldn't be justified EVER I thought- that is, the killing of an innocent. So again, don't claim you defend innocent life, as that is bullshit. If you cared about life you'd care about everyone's life, and you would be against the death penalty, and especially, especially against war(because too many people die). So don't you fucking dare call yourself that. Hypocrite.

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In my eyes you're still a hypocrite, but it's fine, you can just tell yourself you're not if that makes you feel better.

Just as in my eyes you are a hypocrite. Really though the death penalty and abortions aren’t even in the same category. Being for one and against the other does not make you a hypocrite unless you say that guilty life is more valued then innocent life just because the innocent life is not born yet.

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So you think sometimes they need to be punished with death? Who the ARE YOU to decide that, huh? To decide over someone else's life? Isn't that exactly what you're arguing against, the mother deciding over the life of the fetus?

I don’t decide that. I have absolutely no say in the use of the death penalty. Also if you say it is wrong in the case of the death penalty then you also have to say that it is wrong in the case of abortion.

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what do you call yourself?

I want the protection of innocent life. The inclusion of innocent is important because it means that killing an aggressor in self defense or such action may be correct.