quote:

Murder is always wrong.

Great! So what constitutes murder? The definition of murder depends greatly on the one defining it. I'm sure many people would consider war murder, no matter what reason there is for it.

Say, for instance, a man ran up and shoved a gun in your face. You did some crazy fighting move and flipped him over and broke his back. The man dies and you get off on self-defense. But family of that man would claim that you murdered him since you didn't need to kill him in order to save yourself. So is it murder, or not? And if it is murder, is it a justifiable one, or not?

Such questions are not easily answered. Granted, fetuses aren't armed criminals, but the logic is somewhat the same. It's not as easy as saying it's murder and therefore wrong.

quote:

since when is it moral to force someone to have a baby?

First of all we are not forcing people to have a baby. If people don’t want to have babies then they can just stay away from sex.

quote:

and go work in an orphanage or something. worry about the babies that are already alive and homeless or shut up.

I have happened to support several different adoption missions, so don’t start preaching to me about helping orphans.
Secondly I have also gone down multiple times to help victims of Katrina so don’t start on commanding me to help homeless people.
I guess that since I have met the requirements that you gave I can continue to speak, so lastly I do care about the children that are alive, including the ones that have not been born yet.

I don't want to get in to the whole cycle again because all we do is go around but oh well...here goes.

since when is it moral to force someone to have a baby? stop preaching fetus' rights and go work in an orphanage or something. it's like speed and ikki were saying in one of the other milions of abortion threads, worry about the babies that are already alive and homeless or shut up.

quote:

Originally posted by Nephilem:
Since when is it morally right to commit Murder, if some one killed your best friend would you be upset, would you think that it was wrong? I think that you would. Murder is always wrong. We can’t just allow people to choose when and where they want to kill their children.

I love your leap of logic from "You'd be sad if your friend was murdered okay i mean jeez" to "Murder is always wrong okay i mean jeez."

quote:

They can see, with sonograms, actually living unborn babies, so why are we still having them. If women don’t want to have a child, she can either remain a virgin or if she is raped she can put the kid up for adoption.
Parents can’t kill their kid after their born so why can they kill it before it is born.

I love how this is toted like an exciting, cutting edge fact that no pro-choicers have ever heard of. Of course it's alive.

That's the bloody point, isn't it? We aren't arguing if abortion constitutes murder, we're arguing if it's morally okay.

Though I really shouldn't be on this thread at all arguing for anything, as we have too many.

So they don't kill it afterward.

They can see, with sonograms, actually living unborn babies, so why are we still having them. If women don’t want to have a child, she can either remain a virgin or if she is raped she can put the kid up for adoption.
Parents can’t kill their kid after their born so why can they kill it before it is born.

The shirt they're talking about can be seen here, for anyone curious. As for abortion, I finished debating about it two and a half years ago.

abortion is just something we are going to live with. i am not saying ti is right or that it is wrong. i know that it is not something that i could ever do but for some people it is the easier or the smart choice for them at that moment in life. one abrotion is like ok, i understand but when u have more then two, i think u just need to stop having sex or start to walk around with a box of condoms.

Ah, no. The most acceptable form of murder is hunting, I think.

to finn: I've seen that shirt; I like it.

Again... I have a hard time finding this to be an issue at all.

If you think abortion is wrong, then don't have one. Why should you have to the right to also tell "Jane" she cannot have an abortion?

Now is it murder? I suppose that is more within the eye of the beholder rather than science. Some people are alive right now, that are vegetables. And some people very much alive are being put to death because of past transgressions. Alive is sadly a relative word.

Regardless, if it is murder it is probably the most acceptable form. And people will do it whether it is legal or not. So instead of "protesting" it, just choose not to do it, and to each their own.

quote:

I'm probably one of the only ones who say their stance is pro-murder, not pro-choice.

That reminds me of a shirt a friend of mine always wears. It has a red, white, and blue t-rex skull and the words "Vote Regressive. Against Abortion. For Eating Babies."

quote:

You can scream adoption all you want but how many kids have been forgotten. how many kids have gone unwanted.

Oh, I have a reason! It's because people are dumb, and they only care about themselves. The very people who scream adoption would probably shudder to think of comitting the act themselves. Not me, though. Once I graduate ( college ) and do several *cough* other things, I'm going to adopt.

quote:

This country was founded on freedom of religion and for abortion to be illeagal would be a far cry from our rights as American citizens.

I'm sorry to break it to you, hun, but you're not an american citizen until you're actually born and all the paperwork is filled out. Also. America isn't the only country performing abortions. Nor is every member here American.

You can scream adoption all you want but how many kids have been forgotten. how many kids have gone unwanted.
This country was founded on freedom of religion and for abortion to be illeagal would be a far cry from our rights as American citizens.
If you dont have the organs to have a baby you should shut the hell up. Women will have abortions even if there illegal we might as well do it in a safe sterile environment.

Obviously. But that's not what I'm arguing, or what I'm concerned about. I have a rather impassionate view of abortion. I'm probably one of the only ones who say their stance is pro-murder, not pro-choice.

I think she means we know the fetus dies. correct me if I'm wrong

quote:

But the effect for the child is quite clear.

Is it? How exactly do you, or any of us, really know?

quote:

not knowing the effects isn't a good excuse to outlaw them for the women

But the effect for the child is quite clear.

Bluntly: not knowing the effects isn't a good excuse to outlaw them for the women. We all make mistakes every day.

you just don't get it. or I don't get your point maybe