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I'm no expert so correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's in one of the later stages, say 6 or 7 months at least?

My point was that the baby would still be dependant on the mother but that this dependency could be replaced with extensive life support. Yes this is latter in the pregnancy but the question is when does the baby become its own person.

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hahahaha are you talking about the fetus?

I am referring to the baby that will grow in to an adult able to make decisions, providing that it is not killed.

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Originally posted by Nephilem:although in many circumstances the baby could survive on extensive life support if it was removed from the mother.

I'm no expert so correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's in one of the later stages, say 6 or 7 months at least? And by that time I don't think it's legal to have an abortion, unless the mother is in danger. The majority of abortions happen in the first 3 months or so I think, when the fetus could not survive outside the mother.

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The baby is a person, and also should have control over its body.

hahahaha are you talking about the fetus?

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I understand you getting angry at her comment, but was saying this really necessary?

I don’t want her to kill her self, I was just pointing out the obvious flaw in her thinking, she wants the supposed problem to be solved, but wants others to make the sacrifices.

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Considering an unborn child is completely dependent on its mother, I would say that a baby is definitely part of its mother.

And if I was on complete life support in a hospital would I be part of the life support machine, or the hospital? NO! The baby is dependent on the mother up to a certain stage, although in many circumstances the baby could survive on extensive life support if it was removed from the mother.

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Um, neppy person, whoever,

Neppy person? Interesting version of my name, how hard can it be to write my name? It’s attached to all my posts.

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also, well, the parasite thing is a little joke of mine. to me anything parasitic is an organism that lives off of you in order to survive so i consider offspring "parasites.

Look at the scientific of a parasitical organism, and you will see that offspring do not apply, and for good reason, if it did apply then every living thing would be a parasitical organism and the term would be useless in classification.

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and you say im not scientifically correct when you think a fetus is independent of its mother hmmmmm thats cool.

It is not independent, but it is not part of the mother. The baby is a person, and also should have control over its body.

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and as for your suggestion of killing myself, harsh. i actually strongly disapprove of suicide

I was attempting to show you how your plan is flawed. Why should they die to lower the population, instead of you?

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but you cannot deny that we have population problems, this world can only hold so many.

First of all we are not having population problems,(This coming from someone who lives in the county with the third worst traffic in the US ) secondly NASA is currently preparing for its moon base, an is looking at colonization, so by the time we fill this planet, we will be spreading to others. This sounds a little far fetched, but the colonization of space is swiftly moving out of the realm of science fiction.

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If it's to be used as a precedent, it's a poor one.

Basically people are saying that this may be the beginning of the end for abortion. Its not going to have a large impact as president, but people are saying that this may lead to more action. So it would have an indirect effect.

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think I'd rather the kid not exist at all than be unwanted.

But your are denying them the chance. Not all children that are adopted live horrible lives.

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Then it seems that you either let them use incorrect terms, or you try and prove their wrong.

That's what everyone is doing on both sides...

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I mean, all you can do is go in circles on a forum. At least with that attitude.

I suppose there's a time when you realize this discussion isn't going anywhere. But that's just me.

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Originally posted by YouthVoice:

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Here's the thing.
It's incredibly vital to the entire argument.

But here's the thing. We've gone in circles on this thread and any other abortion thread on this site. It's really nothing new what you are bringing to the argument. And the thing is that no one has changed their mind about the way they think. Hence, why it's still going in circles as we speak.

Then it seems that you either let them use incorrect terms, or you try and prove their wrong.

I mean, all you can do is go in circles on a forum. At least with that attitude.

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Here's the thing.
It's incredibly vital to the entire argument.

But here's the thing. We've gone in circles on this thread and any other abortion thread on this site. It's really nothing new what you are bringing to the argument. And the thing is that no one has changed their mind about the way they think. Hence, why it's still going in circles as we speak.

Here's the thing.
It's incredibly vital to the entire argument.

It's the whole "War of the Words" things.
You see, if you say that abortion is killing something, then it's less likely to gain support, as if you were to say that abortion is murder.

It's generally accepted that killing has some beneficial uses.
Murder, however, does not.

Are we going to argue definitions...AGAIN?

Abortion != Murder.

Let me demonstrate how.

Wikipedia defines murder as such:

<i>1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. 2. Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder. 3. The collective noun for crows.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(disambiguation)</i>

Likewise, Brandon Clark, Attorney at Law, defines murder as:

<i>The unlawful killing of a human being with deliberate intent to kill: (1) murder in the first degree is characterized by premeditation; (2) murder in the second degree is characterized by a sudden and instantaneous intent to kill or to cause injury without caring whether the injury kills or not.
brandonlclark.com/glossary.html</i>

Likewise, many more define murder as:

<i>Includes homicide, non-negligent manslaughter, and voluntary homicide. Does not include attempted murder (which is classified as felony assault), negligent homicide, involuntary homicide, or vehicular manslaughter (which are classified as "other violent offenses").
www.pretrialrelease.com/pretrial-release-terms.htm

the unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing of a person
securityproducts.tripod.com/Glossary.html</i>

We can then establish that murder is generally accepted as the illegal and unlawful killing of another human being.

Let us say that abortion legislation passes in which all abortions are allowed.

1. It is murder (a) only if it is illegal (b)
2. Abortion (c) is not illegal (b)
3. Therefore, abortion (c) is not murder (a)

But that's not what I'm guessing Anti-Abortion organizations are trying to argue.

hey i just thought of the parasite thing on my own while we learned about parasitic relationships at school. so i guess many people just associate children with that.

I believe every woman has the right to choose what they want to do with their own body. There is no fact to state here or information to back up what I say - it's an opinion and that is all it is. An opinion is what you all have, and nothing more.

You can't make and break laws on opinions.

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Rape is bad and I am so against it (probably more than any body else I know) but something good came from it and for that I am glad. Imagine if you got pregnant from being raped and you had the baby. 15 years later you are looking at your son or daughter and wondering how you ever even thought of killing them. Imagine how dumb it would sound for you to say "I almost killed my child because his/her father is a rapist"

Well as you were the victim of this most heinous of crimes, my condolences and im sorry it happened.
But what a horrible ideology. It makes me want to hurl.
[RD205 is not coming back to this thread]

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I definately argued the parasite point to the death on one of these abortion topics...

Yeah, it was on this thread. Please, let's not do it again.

These threads always go in circles.

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you totally stole that from House

No she stole that from me

I definately argued the parasite point to the death on one of these abortion topics...

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ADOPTION! Just because you didn't plan on being pregnant doesn't mean it is right to kill this innocent child and in my eyes if you give your child up for adoption you are doing something very wonderful. You are giving this child a completely new life where you know they will be taken care of

In a perfect world, this may be true. But unfortunately, our world is anything but perfect. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of hearing about kids being abused by their adopted families. It happens more than anyone cares to think. So, is giving up a child for adoption a guarantee that they'll have a good life? No. They might, they might not. But why gamble with a child's life? I think I'd rather the kid not exist at all than be unwanted.

I don't know who's idea it was that a baby is not a baby before a certain time. Hey wolfie, you made the statement that a baby would be called an "it" anyway but do you realize that in that statement you also used the term "Baby". I am pregnant with twins and once they are born I will be the mother of 3 beautiful girls. I realize that with me being pregnant you might think my opinion is a biased one but I think you should know something. I was raped. And yes I am keeping these BABIES. I understand how it is to feel alone and scared because you are pregnant with a rapists baby (In my case 2 babies). But with that being said, I also believe that everything happens for a reason. It was not God's plan that I got raped but hey, it happened and I believe that God knew it was going to happen and that he knew that 2 beautiful girls would be brought into this world because of it. To me, bringing a child into this world is a precious miracle from God and Look at my luck, I was chosen to bring 2 of them into the world. Rape is bad and I am so against it (probably more than any body else I know) but something good came from it and for that I am glad. Imagine if you got pregnant from being raped and you had the baby. 15 years later you are looking at your son or daughter and wondering how you ever even thought of killing them. Imagine how dumb it would sound for you to say "I almost killed my child because his/her father is a rapist" That may be true but that doesn't make it the child's fault. It is not the child's fault that you got raped, but I do understand the feelings you feel when it happens and you find out you are pregnant. I always stress to my pregnant friends who never planned on getting pregnant ADOPTION! Just because you didn't plan on being pregnant doesn't mean it is right to kill this innocent child and in my eyes if you give your child up for adoption you are doing something very wonderful. You are giving this child a completely new life where you know they will be taken care of and to me their conception has nothing to do with anything. In response to all of the posts who encouraged abortion-Abortion is very wrong and God looks at it the same as he would if it were murder because that is what it is!

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also, well, the parasite thing is a little joke of mine. to me anything parasitic is an organism that lives off of you in order to survive so i consider offspring "parasites."

you totally stole that from House

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Obviously, a precedent for overturning Roe v Wade.

No, not obviously. The case had nothing to do with Roe v. Wade, in the justices' own words. Roe v. Wade had to do with when the fetus became viable (and as a result, legalized abortion for before the fetus became viable). Gonzales v. Carhart (the decision in question) had only to do with the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. To any reasonably intelligent person, this would make it seem that the Supreme Court is upholding bans on certain forms of abortion, not abortion in general. If it's to be used as a precedent, it's a poor one.

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Um, neppy person,

*suppresses giggle*

You called him neppy.

Um, neppy person, whoever, well before you know the sex of a baby wouldn't you say "it" like "we're having a baby, we don't know whether IT will be a boy or a girl"

also, well, the parasite thing is a little joke of mine. to me anything parasitic is an organism that lives off of you in order to survive so i consider offspring "parasites."

and you say im not scientifically correct when you think a fetus is independent of its mother hmmmmm thats cool.

well, you know what. how about this. if a lady gets pregnant and abortion is illegal then well the impregnantor should by law go through the same hell as she has to, damn this male oriented society.

and as for your suggestion of killing myself, harsh. i actually strongly disapprove of suicide. ^.^

but you cannot deny that we have population problems, this world can only hold so many.