I find it deeply disturbing that North-American parents are allowed to physically harm their children. I'm so tired of hearing people talking about 'moderate', 'light' or 'reasonable' spanking being all right and even acceptable or positive as a form of discipline. Normally, I'm all for listening to the other side, but when your opinions necessitate behavior and that behavior harms others...

Firstly, discipline means "to teach" not "to punish". Punishment is a synonym for revenge, and revenge never solves anything-revenge is about hurting people. It's not about solving problems, teaching right from wrong (how do you decide something is wrong if you've never had to think about it and you base your actions only on fear of what will be done to you after? What happens when you stop caring about will be done to you?) or teaching respect for others. It's not about healing or rebuilding/making amends...why do people choose revenge? To please themselves? Because they can't control their own anger or communicate and problem-solve in constructive and peaceful ways?

Spanking or smacking is the infliction of physical pain in order to control someone else and it is wrong. There is no line to be drawn between acceptable and unacceptable levels of deliberately applied physical harm. It serves no purpose and takes away a person's rights and dignity.

Smacking, spanking or hitting (or worse) doesn't teach a kid what they did wrong or what to do instead, they convey, at the very least, the message that mom or dad wants to hurt them and that it's okay to hit other people when they don't do what you want them to--as long as you have power over them and are bigger. If parents tell a kid what they did wrong and spank them at the same time, then as far as I'm concerned they can't even pretend that spanking is a teaching tool anymore. The spanking becomes a very obvious addition to make the child apprehensive or afraid of not pleasing mum or dad or a poorly chosen way for the parents to deal with their own anger.

Adults should ask themselves what they would do and how they would feel if their boss, mentor or professor decided that they had done something wrong or innapropriate and hit them to try and convey their displeasure. If someone did that to an adult, would they even really understand why; would it make sense? Would they not be outraged and hurt? Wouldn't they be somewhat afraid of this person after experiencing such violent behavior? Imagine that you're that adult, and dependent on that teacher/proffesor/mentor for love, security and guidance. Imagine that they're twice as big as you are. Now why is this situation wrong, but the spanking of a child is not? Those who push spanking says it's a teaching tool. Fine, then teach your friends, your employees and your students the same way. Ask people to teach you that way-especially those you trust and rely on.

Children are no less individual human beings than adults are. Parents do not have any right to harm their child-they do not have the rights to their child's body. Children are not property and adults need to understand that and aim to influence, teach and protect rather than control and abuse.

Well, that's exactly how I approach Jonathan when ever I have to call his attention, I was taught that in my Marriage and Family class which is a prevention class(not like I wanna marry now).

Thanks anyway.

sweet day.

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I should ask her about what some of the things she has learned. I'll try to get you info.

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YouthVoice

grr..I didn't get to this yet, but she just amazed me again. We were walking my dog and this unruley kid started chasing my dog and then trying to hit him with a stick. I kept trying to make the kid stop and he wouldn't...my GF looked at him said one sentence(I don't recall) and the kid stopped and went away...I DON'T GET IT!!!!

She said she just looked him in the eye and told him what to do, stern and authorative, yet not angry. And I hate to say it, but I do get it...it's how I learned to train my dog. Before I learned these methods my dog would just romp all over me like a wild animal. I just can't do it to people...I guess it is easier, since I can be a little more hard on the dog.

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Billy, I think I see what you're getting at. However, I'd want to think about why that teenage child is behaving the way they are-are they repeating something an adult or child did to them? What have they been taught? What the heck is up with them that they are so angry and unable to control their own impulses? Is it that they do have a serious emotional problem?

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according to most people I know who work within youth services, yes all of the above is true, though some kids behaviour defys logic. And being raised a certain way is no excuse, if that were true, I should be a serial killer.

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to acheive control the kid would have to be beaten senseless

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incorrect, there are methods of restarint taught to parents with unruley children. They may not like it...but then again...they shouldn't be beating people with bats...

Just thought it might be worthwhile or something to note that abuse is defined by societal and family standards and lots of kids (myself included-in the past) don't think they're being abused when they actually are. Not to invalidate anybody's experience! I'm not saying "Hey you're totally wrong in your definition about what happened to you"--just putting something out there for everybody to think about if they want to.

Billy, I think I see what you're getting at. However, I'd want to think about why that teenage child is behaving the way they are-are they repeating something an adult or child did to them? What have they been taught? What the heck is up with them that they are so angry and unable to control their own impulses? Is it that they do have a serious emotional problem?

If I was an adult, and I had a kid that became that violent, it would be beyond my control and I would probably opt for mental ward or secure facility and serious therapy (although I've got lots to say about the effectiveness of prison for *certain* things, and the way prisoners and mental patients are treated, too ). I would always choose the least violent kind of restraint. You aren't allowed to beat the ***t out of people, but even if you have, it still doesn't give anybody else the right to hurt you. The most others can do is ensure you don't hurt anyone else. If I was bigger than my child and could restrict their movement I'd do that, but nothing else.

Beating somebody up is an extreme reaction, and in the scenario you chose, it's an extremely angry response to a perceived threat or annoyance...so my guess would be that physical discipline would risk making it worse because it would create an even stronger reaction in the moment or later (heck, if the kid beat up or threatened your partner with a weapon, why not you? unless of course you've been routinely hitting them or behave violently in general and have established the necessary fear-in which case we get back to why the teenager is acting that way in the first place), and to acheive control the kid would have to be beaten senseless. Even then, that child might be so out of control that they could become somewhat desensitized to such pain emotionally and it would have less and less effect. They might do violent things anyway and then just try to avoid you.

Violence is always wrong. How would you be any different hurting that person who hurt someone else (or you) once you do to them what they did to somebody else/you? They started it? Maybe they had a reason that they deeply believed was as just as yours.

Violence isn't a long term solution and it causes more and more cyclic pain, instead of being an effort towards ensuring that _nobody_ experiences pain. Just because you hit somebody doesn't give anyone the right to hit you back, unless it's TRULY self-defence--i.e. in the moment. Personally, I wasn't just spanked-I was physically abused in the legal sense, but I don't believe that that ever would've given me or anyone else the right to hit my mom in order to control her behavior.

YouthVoice, I'll see if I can find some info, as well.

I was spanked as a kid, and I didn't see it as abuse, but it was certainly humiliating! Also, my parents never did it after I was anywhere from eight to ten yrs. old (I don't really remember) and they always gave me a chance to explain myself first. Also, they didn't do it in a scary way, like it was out of anger. It really was more like teaching. Still, I dislike the idea, but I can see where in some cases it would be the best option. But, it should never be to the point of leaving bruises or marks, or soreness. And, slapping, hitting, ect., especially to the face, is just plain wrong. I'm not really sure why I make such a strong distinction between that and spanking, but I do.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

sweet day.

I see your point...now let me take you to another level as I have debated this before.

Your now a middle age adult and you have a teenage child. You come home one day to find your child has beaten your mate with a bat or is maybe holding them hostage at knife point. These are real life exaamles of things I know from people who work within youth correctional facilities. And trust me there are much worse.

Your options:
Prison
Mental ward
Physical Discapline

which one?

His mom says that sometimes when he doesn't obey her, then she tells him that I'm gonna come and then he obeys her.

great point, my GF is Director of a Nursrey/Daycare. And the same things happen with numerous kids. She of course has studied child behaviour and psyc., I should ask her about what some of the things she has learned. I'll try to get you info.

I don't know if I would spank my children(if I ever have any). I was spanked as a child, and I didn't see it as an abuse. But I really don't think that would be the form of disipline I would like to give to my future children. This forum struck my interst because I have actually been looking for information for alternitives of dicipline other than spanking.
You see in church I take care of a little child who is about to turn 2yrs. Everyone tells me I'm his second mom because I always have him with me. But I have been observing him and his not responding very well to his parents disciple. But when I tell him to do nor not do some things he obeys me, and I have never raised a hand against him, never have never will. So I was wondering in what ways I can help his parents(which are my friends). You see, they have a seven yr old boy and a 6 month old girl. So they can't take care of all of them at the same time when we are in church, so I take care of Jonathan. His mom says that sometimes when he doesn't obey her, then she tells him that I'm gonna come and then he obeys her. I thought that to be so weird, cuz sometimes his parents will tell him to do something or not do something and he won't obey them, and they I tell him and he obeys me. I told his mom that I was looking of information and she said that she wanted to know more too cuz it really hurts her to spank them.