The least thing you need in a rape is a constant reminder that it even happened. A pregnant belly is a constant reminder.[/QUOTE]

You would be surprised at what a baby can make you forget. They are the few innocent things we have in life, and I know many mothers that were glad that they kept their babies. A baby can turn your life around, and don't you think you owe them a fair chance at a life. Who's to decide that they can't come into this world?

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There are alternative solutions to abortion, like adoption. There are many willing couples in this world, that can't have children of their own, so they choose to adopt.

But not enough.

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Even if you were raped, think of the baby as something to help you get over one of the most traumatic experiences of your life, children are a blessing, and murder is never a good option.

The least thing you need in a rape is a constant reminder that it even happened. A pregnant belly is a constant reminder.

I don't care what others say, I feel that abortion is wrong, no matter the situation. Abortion is murder, and who are women to say that they can do what ever with their bodies, it's theirs? I mean, if I were to go shoot a child tomorrow, people would be all over me, telling me that what I did was wrong. There are alternative solutions to abortion, like adoption. There are many willing couples in this world, that can't have children of their own, so they choose to adopt. Sure it's a hard choice for the mother, but she has the choice to keep the child, or give it to a loving family. Even if you were raped, think of the baby as something to help you get over one of the most traumatic experiences of your life, children are a blessing, and murder is never a good option. But that is just my opinion...

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Because two days before it could already live outside the womb.

What if the woman "needs" the abortion? How can you decide what she cannot do with her body?

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I don't think children are punishments, but if you CAN'T have the child(I mean keep it or give it up for adoption)

You can always give a child up for adoption.

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I don't know where it is said, but let's use logic, if fetuses had the right to life wouldn't abortion be ilegal?

With that logic, laws would never change. Slavery would still be legal. Racism would still be legal. Are you telling me that every law in tact at this moment is just and correct?

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Basically, if you are not in a situation where you can have a child you should not have sex...

Basically.

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I was responding to the limits thing, you can't put limits to abortion like "oh you're allowed and abortion because I think in your case it's necessary or ok because you've been raped" or "no you shouldn't be able to abort because it's your fault"...

Why don't you think the government should be allowed to do that? If the government believed that the unborn is a human person from conception, wouldn't you be appalled/scared if they didn't ban abortion?

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Things are never that simple.

No, things are usually pretty simple. It's the lenient push-overs who make things complicated, when in fact, they are simple.

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Things become different once you are born.

Yogore, are you impartial towards partial birth abortion?

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Do you seriously think an embryo one day after conception is the same as a fetus one day before birth?

DO you seriously believe that a newborn human is the same as an adult human? What is your point?

Anyway, yes, the blueprint of a newly conceived unborn is exactly the same as a 50-year-old adult human and the same a fetus one day before birth. At the moment of conception, the new organism (not cells - organism/being) has every detail of its personality and physical looks set. There is a difference between cells and organisms.

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Bogey, why do you support the abortion of something NOT human but denounce the abortion of something human? You are pro-life, correct?

O come on, Ikki. We have gone over this countless times. Yes, I am pro-life. Pro-life has the understood meaning of pro (human) life. It means that you are on the side that defends human rights (especially the defenseless humans). Look, Ikki, if you want to throw away the mold growing in your fridge, I am all for that. Mold is allowed to be thrown away, in my opinion. Also, if there is an in your house, it's all right with me if you killed it.

If the unborn isn't human, it is just some pointless cells. Why would I care if it was aborted or not. Nobody should care, if that were the case.

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Shouldn't you be for ALL life, not just human life?

There is a thing called the hierarchy of beings. Humans are the only beings on this planet with rational thought. I believe they are the only spiritual beings as well, since we are the only ones that can worship. This puts us at a higher importance.

Now, if you really believed that humans aren't the most important beings, then it would be logical of you to think that nothing should die, if it is possible to be prevented. You would be against scraping yourself which would kill skin cells. You would be against abortion. But, I don't think this is the case. So, Ikki, I ask you: Why do you think that humans are the most important creatures? And since you do, why aren't you against the killing of humans by abortion?

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when did yogore say we don't matter and our lives have no value?I must have missed that...

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It was the wa that it was said, not that it really matters because that wasn't the point.

what was your point?

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Well that I know of(tell me if I'm wrong) you aren't allowed to abort two days before you're supposed to give birth(and who would want to anyway?!). Maybe it's the same one or two days before, but six months before giving birth I don't consider it to be the same

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Why not be allowed to abort 2 days before your allowed to give birth? It's just a fetus and has not rights to live UNTIL it's born right? So why would it matter if the mother aborted then?

Because two days before it could already live outside the womb.

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Right, so now people should be punished for having sex(

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Once again, If you consider carrying the child that you are responsible for a punishment then yes I guess they should be "punished". I find it to be quite amusing how some consider a child a gift while others consider it a punishment.

I don't think children are punishments, but if you CAN'T have the child(I mean keep it or give it up for adoption) it is a punishment to make you go through with the pregnancy and labor...

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it is once you are born that you are given the right to life

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Gosh, I must have missed this right that you all keep speaking of, when I read the Bill of rights and the US Constitution. Can you please tell me where this is said?

I don't know where it is said, but let's use logic, if fetuses had the right to life wouldn't abortion be ilegal?

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it's really dumb to expect people never to have sex...).

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I don't recall saying that people should never heave sex. I just find it repulsive how people have sex knowing that they could get pregnant and think that they should have the right to abort. They are the reason that it was concieved to begin with and yet they want nothing to do with it.

Basically, if you are not in a situation where you can have a child you should not have sex...

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anyway, why don't you respond to my statement, seriously don't you think it's better(even if you don't like abortion) to have one earlier on when it can't feel, hasn't developed at all, than later on when it could already live outside the womb? (I'm not saying the months because I'm not sure exactly)

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Uh no I don't think that it's better the earlier it is done. It is still alive and it is still human. Taking a human life is considered wrong, why not when it's a living human fetus?

you are still not answering, I'm saying(I know abortion is wrong to you) but if you had the choice and people were going to abort, wouldn't you prefer it earlier when it can't feel than later when it can? I know you think people shouldn't abort at all but if they were going to anyway, doesn't that seem better to you than nothing(that at least it doesn't feel pain)?

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Oh And go back and answer luvas question.

her question was not directed at me(I didn't make that statement it was courtney_06_baby) but anyway I'll answer. I don't think people should only be allowed to abort if they are raped, I think there are other situations where they should have the choice as well. So I think abortion should be kept legal even if only 1% of abortions are from rape cases.

Oh, I was just wondering if what your all trying to say is that animals lifes should be just as valued and just as important as humans?

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when did yogore say we don't matter and our lives have no value?I must have missed that...

It was the wa that it was said, not that it really matters because that wasn't the point.

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Well that I know of(tell me if I'm wrong) you aren't allowed to abort two days before you're supposed to give birth(and who would want to anyway?!). Maybe it's the same one or two days before, but six months before giving birth I don't consider it to be the same

Why not be allowed to abort 2 days before your allowed to give birth? It's just a fetus and has not rights to live UNTIL it's born right? So why would it matter if the mother aborted then?

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Right, so now people should be punished for having sex(

Once again, If you consider carrying the child that you are responsible for a punishment then yes I guess they should be "punished". I find it to be quite amusing how some consider a child a gift while others consider it a punishment.

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it is once you are born that you are given the right to life

Gosh, I must have missed this right that you all keep speaking of, when I read the Bill of rights and the US Constitution. Can you please tell me where this is said?

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it's really dumb to expect people never to have sex...).

I don't recall saying that people should never heave sex. I just find it repulsive how people have sex knowing that they could get pregnant and think that they should have the right to abort. They are the reason that it was concieved to begin with and yet they want nothing to do with it.

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anyway, why don't you respond to my statement, seriously don't you think it's better(even if you don't like abortion) to have one earlier on when it can't feel, hasn't developed at all, than later on when it could already live outside the womb? (I'm not saying the months because I'm not sure exactly)

Uh no I don't think that it's better the earlier it is done. It is still alive and it is still human. Taking a human life is considered wrong, why not when it's a living human fetus?

Oh And go back and answer luvas question.

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Yes I suppose your right. Now let's make murder exceptable and legal since we humans don't matter and our lifes have no value. The fact is, as humans we have more capabilities than animals do and have came up with much more useful things then all can benefit from. Do you see all animals using fox dens or beaver dens? nope only that beaver family and only that fox family.

when did yogore say we don't matter and our lives have no value?I must have missed that...

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Who says that after birth is when the right should be given? It is still the same living human 2 days before it is born as it is after it's born. That is so stupid to say that it only has rights after it is born.

Well that I know of(tell me if I'm wrong) you aren't allowed to abort two days before you're supposed to give birth(and who would want to anyway?!). Maybe it's the same one or two days before, but six months before giving birth I don't consider it to be the same.

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I don't want to **** up my LIFE

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That's something that maybe you should have thought about prior to having sex. It's like playing with fire.

Right, so now people should be punished for having sex(and notice I don't say teens, you could be happily married and get pregnant at a time when you are not able to have the child and have to have an abortion, so what's the solution then?it's really dumb to expect people never to have sex...).

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I never said I like abortion, but I think it's definitely better to have one earlier on that later.

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Yeah and it's better to kill a 2 yr old before it gets any older and has to face any troubles. The fact is that no matter how old it is or how developed it is, it is still a human life. You consider taking a life of a born person wrong why?

Like yogore said, it is once you are born that you are given the right to life(so a two year old has the same right to live as a 15 year old, as an 86 year old, etc).
But anyway, why don't you respond to my statement, seriously don't you think it's better(even if you don't like abortion) to have one earlier on when it can't feel, hasn't developed at all, than later on when it could already live outside the womb? (I'm not saying the months because I'm not sure exactly)

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I am not saying abortion is right I actually find it very wrong..but if a girl is raped and she gets pregnant I think she should have the choice...

1% of abortions are from rape cases. So even though you're against abortions in "normal" circumstances, do you think abortions should be kept legal for that 1% who were raped?

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It gives them more rights.

I can understand more basic rights, but not more rights to live.

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Because sex is like fire... It's still punishment.

Sex can be like fire. People know the possible outcomes but continue to take the risk anyways. And if you consider a child a punishment then yes, people need to be responsible for their own actions and live with them.

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But it falls under the catgory of it could live on it's own which makes it different.

Yes, but thats not what you said. You said that the right to live does NOT come until you are born. In the third trimester, it is NOT yet born so then abortions done in the third trimester should be perfectly ok then.

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Age and development does not make someone more human or more alive.

It gives them more rights.

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If you play with fire you may get burnt, people have to live with that mistake and it doesn't even involve another human life.

Because sex is like fire... It's still punishment.

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So, it isn't born yet. It shouldn't have the right to live yet.

But it falls under the catgory of it could live on it's own which makes it different.

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Only humans use human things.

Yeah but millions of humans use these human things.

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Forcing people to do things that hurt their body's? That's punishment. By saying "you had sex, you deserve to be forced to carry a child".

If you play with fire you may get burnt, people have to live with that mistake and it doesn't even involve another human life.

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In the third trimester, the fetus can live outside the womb.

So, it isn't born yet. It shouldn't have the right to live yet.

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That makes it able to be born.

But it isn't and the right of life doesn't come until it IS born right?

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Humans matter, they just aren't more important than any other animal. And living ones should be more important than unborn ones.

Humans are humans born or non-born. I've been over that many times yogore. Age and development does not make someone more human or more alive.

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Do you see all animals using fox dens or beaver dens? nope only that beaver family and only that fox family.

Only humans use human things.

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How is that considered a punishment?

Forcing people to do things that hurt their body's? That's punishment. By saying "you had sex, you deserve to be forced to carry a child".

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Just because some think that birth is when the right should be given to live doesn't mean that it's right. If this is so, then all forms of abortion no matter what trimester, should all be legal correct?

In the third trimester, the fetus can live outside the womb. That makes it able to be born. Before the third trimester, it's not developed enough. Just because you think abortion is murder doesn't mean it's right either.

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Now let's make murder exceptable and legal since we humans don't matter and our lifes have no value.

Humans matter, they just aren't more important than any other animal. And living ones should be more important than unborn ones.

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You have to put the starting point somewhere. We argued this and you ran out of arguments so you reverted back to "abortion is murder!" remember?

No I don't remember but sine you said it, it must be true.

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Oh yay! let's rejoice in punishing people for not holding our same veiws!

How is that considered a punishment?

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Ohio, sweetie, you know this argument won't work, because we've told you the right to live is given at birth. You may not agree, but you have to understand why that then makes the argument you gave stupid.

Yogore, hunny, Just because some think that birth is when the right should be given to live doesn't mean that it's right. If this is so, then all forms of abortion no matter what trimester, should all be legal correct?

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you think beaver damns and fox dens aren't useful things? Thinking humans are supirior is our problem. We are animals just like everything else.

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Animals communicate, mate, build things, help each other, walk, move about, etc.
And driving? Amish people don't drive, are they not important then?

Yes I suppose your right. Now let's make murder exceptable and legal since we humans don't matter and our lifes have no value. The fact is, as humans we have more capabilities than animals do and have came up with much more useful things then all can benefit from. Do you see all animals using fox dens or beaver dens? nope only that beaver family and only that fox family.

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Who says that after birth is when the right should be given? It is still the same living human 2 days before it is born as it is after it's born. That is so stupid to say that it only has rights after it is born.

What about voting? How does 2 days change your ability to make voting decisions.

You have to put the starting point somewhere. We argued this and you ran out of arguments so you reverted back to "abortion is murder!" remember?

[quot]Why only when it is able to survive out of the womb, it is a womens body if she doesn't feel like giving birth at all she shouldn't have to right?[/quote] Thats why third trimester abortions should be thought of differently than first term abortions.

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That's something that maybe you should have thought about prior to having sex.

Oh yay! let's rejoice in punishing people for not holding our same veiws!

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Yeah and it's better to kill a 2 yr old before it gets any older and has to face any troubles. The fact is that no matter how old it is or how developed it is, it is still a human life. You consider taking a life of a born person wrong why?

Ohio, sweetie, you know this argument won't work, because we've told you the right to live is given at birth. You may not agree, but you have to understand why that then makes the argument you gave stupid.

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But if you want to know why human life is important, it's because we (humans) are the creators of all the things we have today that we live off of. No other lving thing has created or came up with any useful thing.

you think beaver damns and fox dens aren't useful things? Thinking humans are supirior is our problem. We are animals just like everything else.

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That' why human life is important and is more valued. we walk, we talk, we drive, we go to school, we build things. we create things, we contribute to things.

Animals communicate, mate, build things, help each other, walk, move about, etc.
And driving? Amish people don't drive, are they not important then?

Then let's make murder exceptable too.

Humans only contibute to human things though. We have our own society, of course other species shouldn't contribute-IT'S NOT THEIR SOCIETY. And other animals make useful things, plus, they don't **** up the planet. If all humans suddenly disappeared, the world would be in great shape. We no longer fill an important niche. We aren't important, except to ourselves. The last thing the earth needs is more of us.