Everything I said in my previous post comes down to one simple concept:

Right wing religious antiabortionist are a bunch of hypocrits. They profess their love of life as the reason they are against abortion, yet they put more emphasis on protecting non born fetuses than on trying to help those who are allready born and suffering horribly unjust circumstances.
If you love life so much start worrying about those that are allready alive instead of bitching about cell clusters that haven't yet developed sentient thought.

This may seem rather blunt, but it is true nonetheless, and I think the reactions will be more interesting if people feel somewhat ofended by my post. Since I know there are a lots of these said people on YN, I'd be interested in n hearing their justifications.

If you want to talk about my siganture I suggest you do so in the Spirituality board, this has nothing to do with spirituality.(That is disregarding the hypocrits I mentioned which are all about it, but that is another matter)

This has nothing do to with freewill. If you want to start a topic on the Fallen, go ahead and do so. But I refuse to hijack this topic on things that have nothing to do with what spurned this tangent.

Yes of course they had a choice. I compared it with addiction, right? You have a choice to cut yourself off. But do you want to? Only if the reason is great enough. But point aside. Yahweh did it. And he's not letting them back, not any time soon. So the point is made. And back to abortion.

"Freewill" is a matter of Theology. Not all Christians believe in freewill. But lets say we know for a fact that humans have freewill. Why wouldn't angels be given freewill too?

The story in revelation, is that the "Dragon" or devil, lead a rebellion with other angels (As Satan himself is an angel). Was defeated by Michael and other angels, and cast down to earth. It sounds as though they had their choice in the matter. And of course forgiveness is always their with God. However grace isn't, nor do I believe it fair to expect, patience.

As far as serving their purpose for creation... I don't think man has really done so, have they?

They Fell because they went against what they were made for. Angels were made to be servants to him, and to worship him. I think it was the second fall ( someone throw a stick at me if I'm wrong ) where the angels were told to serve humanity, and some didn't want to. For whatever reason. I'd imagine they thought it disgraceful, or that they loved god so much that they would serve no other. But either way, they disobeyed a direct order. So they were cast out.

But I don't know if God has offered to forgive them.. Angels are on a different level than us, not only in being, but in their standing with god. We..have a choice in the matter, to follow him or not, freewill. But they don't. That's what they were created to do.

I wish I could understand Yahweh. I just know one thing for certain: he is not such a benevolent god like everyone thinks he is.

There are different theories on how they could come back. I don't claim to know them all, or believe them all. The bible says in Jude that they will be judged with the rest of humanity ( Jude v6 ), and that's the only biblical reference I've found.

Know this: that the angels didn't worship Yahweh just because they were created for that. They loved him. They have what the rest of us seek: divine communion with our creator. They practically lived in it! To be cast out isn't to be thrown from heaven like everyone seems to believe. It's to be severed from the very being who created you. You're cut off, and you can't ever go back. Maybe like quitting a drug cold turkey after using it your whole remembered life? More extreme than that, but you get the picture?

I think we hijacked the topic.

If I were to offer you a gift, and you not accept, then to whom does the gift belong to?

Is forgiveness so different? If I offer forgiveness, and you do not accept, who has been forgiven? The Act of forgiveness is not all involved in the course of forgiveness. Would you agree?

So then, your understanding of Yahweh seems to be great enough. What is his (or what have you) policy on forgiveness?

If the Angels were fallen indeed... no more then you or I... how might a fallen angel come back to grace? How is it so different then if a man falls, he might return to grace then it is for an angel? You are right. I cannot point to a particular scripture in reference to the Angels not seeking forgiveness. Although the fact that they are indeed fallen, alludes to it.

Now to the issue of the Cruelty in which they were handled... how so? Again, you seem to know allot about Yahweh... Why do you believe he would cast out angels who were rebellious, or even prideful?

There were a few Falls, as I am to understand it. And of course the Angels have a choice. But we're not talking about thier fault; we're talking about God's cruelty. No?

quote:

As far as I know, there were no fallen angels who sought forgiveness

Also, have you known any Fallen personally? How could you make this claim? And would they even talk to you if you did? Where most of them fell because of their loathing of humanity.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade:
Hmph. The Fallen Angels.

How so? As far as I know, there were no fallen angels who sought forgiveness. As far as condemned to death, death is the byproduct of sin. So who condemns who? Is wasn't as though the Angels had no choice in the matter. Hints why they are referred to as "Fallen".

Hmph. The Fallen Angels.

quote:

Originally posted by Shade:
Dalifan.. Which God? Because I seem to recall some nasty Gods who don't forgive you when you mess up... They do things where death would seem a mercy. ( I'm also including Yahweh in that generalization )

In terms of Yahweh, could you provide an example?

Dalifan, are you talking about Speed's sig?

Well, speed, you're right. I believe abortions are murder and wrong ( don't get me wrong--I'm not pro-life ), and I'm for the death-penalty. I'll admit I'm a hypocrite.

Dalifan.. Which God? Because I seem to recall some nasty Gods who don't forgive you when you mess up... They do things where death would seem a mercy. ( I'm also including Yahweh in that generalization )

God dosn't kill us we kill ourselves and each other. God is simply there to help us make the right chooses and to offer us forgiveness when we screw up.

and lots of them are pro-death penalty...