Question:
Do you think abortions are :

Choices:
ethically right
completely wrong
depends on the situation
don't know

 

quote:

they have to be nice and mature too. :P

bascially the opposite of what you are...

sometimes I imagine that in some parallel universe we are good friends but EG had to start bitching at me for no reason soo... that's life. -_-

quote:

by EG:
But I still don't think being worried about what people are saying behind one's back is any reason to get an abortion. Going by your logic, a woman should not get an abortion due the social and familial shame that comes with that as well.

I didn't mean a woman should get an abortion to avoid gossip. I was thinking more a long the lines of getting thrown out of your home and disowned by unsupportive parents, or being shunned by people you considered friends, or other stuff like that...
(I'm not generalizing here, I know this doesn't happen to every unwed pregnant woman, but I think a woman should have the option as to whether or not she wants to carry and bear a child...)

quote:

quote:

by EG:
If you want to pretend to be an adult by willingly opening your legs for someone, you deal with the consequences like an adult. That's my philosophy.

quote:

by Hoopdawg:
Of course all of the consequences fall on the woman. ...

quote:

by EG:
I am so sorry Ms. PC. I'll make sure not to assume most women with their unwarranted sense of self-importance are capable of pulling up their big girl panties and coping with a little harsh criticism.

I do agree that people should have to pay the price for their actions, I just think the men should pay a bit too... I was only pointing out that in that particular quote you were focused on the woman's responsibility and neglected any fault on the man's part.

And I don't think I ever mentioned giving out free asspats...

quote:

Both of these are good positions, Wolfie. I think the two of you (EG and Wolfie) actually agree/are more similar than either of you wants to consider. Now I sound like some sort of psychotherapist. Oh God. I'm being a psychotherapist on an internet forum.

I know we are very similar. But I don't get along with someone based purely on our beliefs, they have to be nice and mature too. :P

quote:

I know this, however the same could be said about Wolfie's baseless assumption that animals don't punish each other for the killing of another, as an argument against the death penalty. I'm personally not one to pull the "animals do it, we should too" response into an argument. But it was brought up, and I responded as I saw fit.

Fair enough. Admittedly it isn't the argument that would immediately have sprung to my mind against the death penalty, but I suppose that's partly because it seems (to me at least) self-evident that the death penalty is a medieval idea that struggles into modern society only because the US insists on upholding of at least some fragment of tradition. I just wish you'd chosen something else to make a tradition than the right to bear and arms and the death penalty, which hardly seem to be advantageous things to keep...

quote:

I've seen girls who have been stopped from walking at their graduations or going to their senior proms because they could be an embarrasment to the school. Of course, none of this prejudice is official... it's just that people look at the girls like they are trash, it's all their fault, and they should be sterilized or something, I find it ridiculous

It's possible that this might be more an American thing, partly because we don't have Prom. We do have the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe, but the 'empty ring finger' is much less of an issue in which only 15% of the population regularly go to church and believe in god.

quote:

- yeah okay you're trying to bring back intellectual debates by never citing anything and just acting like a bitch to people.

...

All of your facts come from within not from an external source.

Wolfie, you know I love you, but it does seem strange that you say this quite shortly after EG cites the only two sources that I have ever seen anyone post on YN, the second one after you challenged the first as being outdated. If anyone is upholding sources on this thread at the moment, it's EG.

quote:

Was this book implying that no one should ever be have children? Or were they more specific about the kind of pain, the source of the pain, etc?

Yes, indeed EG, the book argues that birth is always bad, and that therefore abortion before sentience/pain awareness is always a good thing. A basic (stress on basic) summary of the main argument is:

It is a positive good when we deprive people of pain, whereas it isn't a positive evil to deprive people of pleasure. Therefore, deprivation of pain is the determining criteria. Since all life will involve pain, it will always be true that it is ethically better not to bring children into the world than to bring them into the world.

However, once we are born (which, after all, isn't our fault) we might as well endure the pain as best we can and cling to what pleasure we can find, whilst dodging as much pain as possible.

Anyway, that was a side point which I thought was quite interesting, and also kind of (tangentially) pertinent to this debate.

quote:

Now my family is going to end up with a future doctor. I guess the alternative of aborting me would've been a better option.

I was almost aborted too - a spine ebifida test came back false positive. Luckily for me (or unluckily, if you accept the argument above) I wasn't and here I am. But I am still in favour of abortion before the legal limit.

EG, what about abortion is it that you object to? A pathologist, who doesn't seem concerned about the definition of life; your position seems to be largely grounded in a 'philosophy' of personal responsibility. Is this right?

quote:

a legal system that does it by the thousands.

One of my problems with the typical US approach
to the death penalty is that it is hypocrisy - checks and balances are there to protect the rights of the citizen in all cases except that in which he is perhaps most interested, his life. How is it that the rights of the citizen can be ignored in this way, simply because the federal law doesn't outlaw this barbarism?

quote:

If you guys want me to go cite my books and then you can check them out of the library just to find out I'm right than I'll cite my books. lol But I doubt most people would want to waste there time doing that.

Those of us who endure here, Wolfie, probably do so because we are interested in learning and in debate, which would lead me to conclude that citing sources so that we could learn about your position would be good. I mean, you needn't do it all the time, but if asked, I see no problem with doing so. We are, after all, committed to reasonable debate and our individual progress through knowledge so why not?

quote:

I think now would be the perfect time to say that I do not and never have supported the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

But I always take every side into consideration before I set my mind on one. Whether I agree with you or not, I'm always going to point out your logical fallacies.

Both of these are good positions, Wolfie. I think the two of you (EG and Wolfie) actually agree/are more similar than either of you wants to consider. Now I sound like some sort of psychotherapist. Oh God. I'm being a psychotherapist on an internet forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfie:
Oh yeah I've seen some huge changes. I'm glad you're happy about being the rudest bimbo this site.

Yep. I'm much happier to be a rude bimbo, than a moron who goes, "lol im lol write lol your lol wrong lololol".

quote:

I'm sorry, maybe you just have not learned as much as I have.

Incorrect. Your problem is you have a seriously weird habit of assuming that everything you read and know is fact, while everyone else who may have read just as much if not more so than you but have a slightly different opinion, are beneath your non-existent "intellect".

Truth is relative. You should know that since you're so "samrt".

And you keep making bizarre statements that are completely illogical and just plain incompatible with reality, so I'm genuinely curious as where you're getting your info so I can read it myself. Again, not a difficult concept.

Just stop making excuses for yourself and just post book titles and authors. Shit. I will read them.

quote:

You generalize way too much. You should stop so you're posts will improve.

You are the living definition of Hypocrisy...

quote:

None of this even matters because abortion is always going to be legal. Sorry your innocent 'baby' friends are going to continue to be brutally slaughtered before they can even begin to live.

I think now would be the perfect time to say that I do not and never have supported the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

But I always take every side into consideration before I set my mind on one. Whether I agree with you or not, I'm always going to point out your logical fallacies.

quote:

If you want to judge me based on how fucked up I was in the past, fine. However, if you do not wish to take into account that I have grown up a lot since then that's seriously not my problem. I saw my flaws, I've corrected most of them, and I've learned from past mistakes.

Anyway, always fun to know that I'm the most something on this site. Good for me.

Oh yeah I've seen some huge changes. I'm glad you're happy about being the rudest bimbo this site.

Lol, okay so a few animals will kill other animals. They don't set in place a legal system that does it by the thousands. Sweet jesus. I dislike when people use tiny, insignificant examples because that is not what reality is.

I'm sorry, maybe you just have not learned as much as I have. The things I post are generally such basic knowledge to me that I expected the majority of the population to know what I was talking about. Guess my expectations were wayyyyyy too high. Most of the info I get I read out of random ass books. If you guys want me to go cite my books and then you can check them out of the library just to find out I'm right than I'll cite my books. lol But I doubt most people would want to waste there time doing that. This brings me back to my point that people take YN way too seriously.

Where do I ever say all pregnancies are horrible. I was just stating some of the negatives that can happen. Yeah it's like that for a FEW women. The majority of women do not feel 'orgasmic pleasure' when pushing an 8lb baby out of them. You generalize way too much. You should stop so you're posts will improve.

Again, you are one person. My mom could have aborted me. She didn't but would I have cared if she had? No because it wouldn't matter because "I" that is to say wolfie would never have existed to regret it.

None of this even matters because abortion is always going to be legal. Sorry your innocent 'baby' friends are going to continue to be brutally slaughtered before they can even begin to live.

quote:

And yes pregnancy is a terrible experience if you don't want to be pregnant. Most experiences are if you don't wish to have them.
Also, I didn't say it was just the pregnancy, I was also referring to the social and familial shame that comes with it.

Our society and societies in general are becoming more and more progressive about this issue. But I still don't think being worried about what people are saying behind one's back is any reason to get an abortion. Going by your logic, a woman should not get an abortion due the social and familial shame that comes with that as well.

quote:

Of course all of the consequences fall on the woman.
And yes I remember you have said before that the men should be accountable, but this statement doesn't even acknowledge any responsibility on the man's part. In fact, it only mentions the woman having the option of closing her legs, as if the man is just some hormonal sex machine with no choices or accountability.

Boys will be boys, but if a woman get's pregnant then it's that whore's fault?

You chose to say 'if you open your legs for someone... you deal with the consequences' instead of 'if you and another adult willingly engage in an act that could result in a child you both should face the consequences'

I am so sorry Ms. PC. I'll make sure not to assume most women with their unwarranted sense of self-importance are capable of pulling up their big girl panties and coping with a little harsh criticism.

quote:

Or you just have absolutely no way to refute it.

Or I just don't think women deserve asspats.

quote:

But I don't think that this is strong enough a position to declare that we should retaliate too. Surely a very grand case of the naturalistic fallacy? Part of what makes us human (viz. your definition of love vs sex) is the ability to rationally (or emotionally) transcend the purely animal - i.e. forgiveness/tolerance/non-knee-jerk responses.

I know this, however the same could be said about Wolfie's baseless assumption that animals don't punish each other for the killing of another, as an argument against the death penalty. I'm personally not one to pull the "animals do it, we should too" response into an argument. But it was brought up, and I responded as I saw fit.

quote:

I read a book recently that sort of covers this issue. It argued that it is always constitutes a harm to bring a child into the world, because it will always experience pain, which is bad, and to deprive it of pain by not bringing it into existence therefore always constitutes a good. Thoughts?

Was this book implying that no one should ever be have children? Or were they more specific about the kind of pain, the source of the pain, etc?

quote:

lmao- yeah okay you're trying to bring back intellectual debates by never citing anything and just acting like a bitch to people. lol You're the most rude person on this site. You always have been sweetie. Even during the 'golden age' of yn you were just an annoying bitchy ranty person that provided absolutely no insight on anything. All of your facts come from within not from an external source.

If you want to judge me based on how fucked up I was in the past, fine. However, if you do not wish to take into account that I have grown up a lot since then that's seriously not my problem. I saw my flaws, I've corrected most of them, and I've learned from past mistakes.

Anyway, always fun to know that I'm the most something on this site. Good for me.

quote:

lol, most things on this site don't need sources. Abortion for example is just one of those things people will never agree as is global warming, the war and pretty much every topic on this site.

Making up more reasons to get away with being wrong all the time?

No. When you make an outrageous claim, that is hard to believe, whether it has to do with abortion, global warming or the war, back it up with evidence. Not a difficult concept Wolfie.

quote:

Debate is stupid because one does not really learn anything from it. You just learn how to argue your side and you don't think about any other side to it.

You probably don't, which isn't surprising at all. But just so you know I used to be hardcore Pro-choice, until I started debating it and taking others' perspectives and evidence into account.

quote:

I believe that we should find truth not do everything we can to win an arugement. Which is what you, myself and pretty much most people on yn do because everything on this site has been discussed way too much. As you should know.

That's not what I do at all. I personally don't mind arguing over-argued topics. It keeps me sharp. Keeps my vocabulary from deteriorating while I'm waiting for school to start. If you don't like it then... t(^.^t) I could care less about what you think I should and shouldn't do to "find truth".

quote:

Pregnancy isn't a great experience. Sure you have created life but your physical well being suffers from it. I consider something a horrible experience if it makes me fat and incapable of doing things I would normally do for 9 months and then the only way to free myself from this is to squeeze something the size of a grape fruit out of me. lol But that's just how some people feel about it. Maybe you should get over it. ^.-

I understand fully that SOME people see it as a horrible experience. However, I don't think it's very intelligent to assume or imply that ALL pregnancies are bad experiences based on shallow fears. I was watching a segment on 20/20 (or it could've been 60 Minutes) one day where some chick was talking about how childbirth was orgasmic for her and many other women like her. So really, I think you're just scaring yourself for no good reason.

quote:

lol, brehon. That's how I feel about it. If a woman is addicted to crack and has sex for crack and gets pregnant that child is going to grow up with no father and a mother who is most likely to busy with her addiction to care for him. Sure she could give him up for adoption but not everyone does that. Would it be better to simply not have him be in this world and give his soul another chance to find a better body or life? or would it be better to throw him in an environment where life will just hurt him more?

Well, my parents certainly weren't ready for me. They raised me in an environment where drug and alcohol addiction and physical, verbal and emotional abuse was a daily part of my life. Though it affected me terribly growing up, I've drawn strength from it. Now my family is going to end up with a future doctor. I guess the alternative of aborting me would've been a better option.

I can't support abortion on the basis of speculation. Bringing souls (their existence is debatable) into the conversation doesn't help matters at all.

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I've seen girls who have been stopped from walking at their graduations or going to their senior proms because they could be an embarrasment to the school. Of course, none of this prejudice is official... it's just that people look at the girls like they are trash, it's all their fault, and they should be sterilized or something, I find it ridiculous

I think it's ridiculous too. But do you really think if people found out they had an abortion, that that would make their situation any better?

quote:

Does the shame thing really still exist?

I can't speak for the rest of the country, of course, but most of the shame comes from older people who think everything our generation does is the end of the world, haha

But there is definitely a bad connotation with a swollen belly and an empty ring finger.

I've seen girls who have been stopped from walking at their graduations or going to their senior proms because they could be an embarrasment to the school. Of course, none of this prejudice is official... it's just that people look at the girls like they are trash, it's all their fault, and they should be sterilized or something, I find it ridiculous

That just in my experience, I can't say about everyone else...

quote:

stop taking youthnoise so seriously. i just fuck around on here. it's fun try it sometime.


Is that why you're completely wrong all the time?

I love this site because it was a big part of my life for 6 years and I'm trying to keep it alive, if you don't mind. I want it back to the way it was when proper debates were had. When sources were cited and the top debaters kept biting sarcasm and rudeness to a minimum. When YN was an exercise in intellect. Not Myspace part Deux. If that bothers you, then good, I'm glad to be an annoyance.

lmao- yeah okay you're trying to bring back intellectual debates by never citing anything and just acting like a bitch to people. lol You're the most rude person on this site. You always have been sweetie. Even during the 'golden age' of yn you were just an annoying bitchy ranty person that provided absolutely no insight on anything. All of your facts come from within not from an external source.

lol, most things on this site don't need sources. Abortion for example is just one of those things people will never agree as is global warming, the war and pretty much every topic on this site.

Debate is stupid because one does not really learn anything from it. You just learn how to argue your side and you don't think about any other side to it. Then, with topics that are never going to be resolved like abortion people will, after a while, stop using facts and simply resort to discrediting the opposing side because each party is so eager and obsessed with being right. I believe that we should find truth not do everything we can to win an arugement. Which is what you, myself and pretty much most people on yn do because everything on this site has been discussed way too much. As you should know.

Pregnancy isn't a great experience. Sure you have created life but your physical well being suffers from it. I consider something a horrible experience if it makes me fat and incapable of doing things I would normally do for 9 months and then the only way to free myself from this is to squeeze something the size of a grape fruit out of me. lol But that's just how some people feel about it. Maybe you should get over it. ^.-

lol, brehon. That's how I feel about it. If a woman is addicted to crack and has sex for crack and gets pregnant that child is going to grow up with no father and a mother who is most likely to busy with her addiction to care for him. Sure she could give him up for adoption but not everyone does that. Would it be better to simply not have him be in this world and give his soul another chance to find a better body or life? or would it be better to throw him in an environment where life will just hurt him more?

Lol, with the love thing, I was talking about romantic love, but parental and platonic love is also based on instinct. Emotions are instincts. Logic is not.

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But to those who see homosexuality as a disorder of the soul that needs to be eradicated, designing babies would be a perfect tool for them to get their wish.

This does seem to be somewhat dependent on the idea that homosexuality is a genetic trait that can be eradicated by genetic methods. I'm not sure that it necessarily is, but I am open to that possibility - I just don't think the evidence is strong enough yet to condemn genetic techniques off the bat.

quote:

I want it back to the way it was when proper debates were had. When sources were cited and the top debaters kept biting sarcasm and rudeness to a minimum. When YN was an exercise in intellect. Not Myspace part Deux. If that bothers you, then good, I'm glad to be an annoyance.

clpo still drops in from time to time. That's something to be glad of.

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I love my parents, I don't want to mate with them. I love my sister, I don't want to mate with her either.

Welcome to the world of wonderfully-outdated Freudian psychology.

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It's not unusual for animals to retaliate. Where do you think we get our desire to do so?

But I don't think that this is strong enough a position to declare that we should retaliate too. Surely a very grand case of the naturalistic fallacy? Part of what makes us human (viz. your definition of love vs sex) is the ability to rationally (or emotionally) transcend the purely animal - i.e. forgiveness/tolerance/non-knee-jerk responses.

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The blame falls on both, but the nine-month burden, and the shame, falls almost completely on the woman.

Does the shame thing really still exist? In the UK at least there is very little stigma attached to the phenomenon, possibly because it is becoming increasingly common.



I read a book recently that sort of covers this issue. It argued that it is always constitutes a harm to bring a child into the world, because it will always experience pain, which is bad, and to deprive it of pain by not bringing it into existence therefore always constitutes a good. Thoughts?

quote:

pregnancy is a terrible experience if you don't want to be pregnant

I'm sure you have some biting witicism prepared for this quote, but I just don't care to hear it.
Just a friendly warning that I don't care to hear about "if you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex" I've heard this one before and it's played out.

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Calling a fetus a parasite for one. And assuming pregnancy in general is a horrible experience.

I didn't say it was. I said it could arguably be called one.
And yes pregnancy is a terrible experience if you don't want to be pregnant. Most experiences are if you don't wish to have them.
Also, I didn't say it was just the pregnancy, I was also referring to the social and familial shame that comes with it.

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If you want to pretend to be an adult by willingly opening your legs for someone, you deal with the consequences like an adult. That's my philosophy.

Of course all of the consequences fall on the woman.
And yes I remember you have said before that the men should be accountable, but this statement doesn't even acknowledge any responsibility on the man's part. In fact, it only mentions the woman having the option of closing her legs, as if the man is just some hormonal sex machine with no choices or accountability.

Boys will be boys, but if a woman get's pregnant then it's that whore's fault?

You chose to say 'if you open your legs for someone... you deal with the consequences' instead of 'if you and another adult willingly engage in an act that could result in a child you both should face the consequences'

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I read that quite clearly the first time. But I could still care less.

Or you just have absolutely no way to refute it.

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stop taking youthnoise so seriously. i just fuck around on here. it's fun try it sometime.

Is that why you're completely wrong all the time?

I love this site because it was a big part of my life for 6 years and I'm trying to keep it alive, if you don't mind. I want it back to the way it was when proper debates were had. When sources were cited and the top debaters kept biting sarcasm and rudeness to a minimum. When YN was an exercise in intellect. Not Myspace part Deux. If that bothers you, then good, I'm glad to be an annoyance.

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I don't have a negative view on the world at all. I just think people shouldn't be forced to carry what can be generalized as a parasite if they don't want to... I call that freedom not pessimism. haha jk
But seriously, I'm not a negative person at all. What gave you the idea? jw

Calling a fetus a parasite for one. And assuming pregnancy in general is a horrible experience.

quote:

Are you saying that you agree that single women carrying unplanned children should be able to choose to abort them? (I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I'm just trying to clarify points I'm not sure of.)

No, I'm saying that I understand what you're saying. I understand your perspective. I don't agree with it, but I understand.

However, I do agree that single women who were raped should have the choice to abort, but I don't think abortion should be abused. If you want to pretend to be an adult by willingly opening your legs for someone, you deal with the consequences like an adult. That's my philosophy.

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To a certain extent, yes. The blame falls on both, but the nine-month burden, and the shame, falls almost completely on the woman. (just to reiterate a former point)

I read that quite clearly the first time. But I could still care less.

Lol, I'm not trying to tell people to abort kids with mental disablities. I'm just saying that I wouldn't have a child with that condition. You had to step in and call me 'weak' and push your opinions on this deadthread. lol I don't say their useless. Sure art and music and expanding the mind are important. they're very important but what we have a shortage of right now is revolutinary scientists. we need to get a move on many things in fields like engineering, science, medicine and technology. And I'm sorry but there really aren't any handicapped people who could do that. And that is why I do not wish for my child to be challenged in anyway. I just want them to have the best life they can and if it takes some sort of 'pervision of nature,' also known as science, to ensure that, then I'll do it.

stop taking youthnoise so seriously. i just fuck around on here. it's fun try it sometime.

^x^ <-- i gave u kiss

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
I was referring to hoopdawg....

I don't have a negative view on the world at all. I just think people shouldn't be forced to carry what can be generalized as a parasite if they don't want to... I call that freedom not pessimism. haha jk
But seriously, I'm not a negative person at all. What gave you the idea? jw

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
But I think we're on a completely different page here. I'm thinking of couples in a loving relationship who mutually agree to have a child. I see no reason why a woman in that situation would be living in shame.

... I have a feeling we're on different pages too.
Of course couples in loving relationships who are planning to have children have attachments to their unborns. I don't see how this has bearing on the argument... why would a woman abort a planned pregnancy?
Most, if not all, abortion-seeking women are single... that's what I thought we were debating.

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
If you're talking about single women who were unfortunately knocked up, I understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that you agree that single women carrying unplanned children should be able to choose to abort them? (I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I'm just trying to clarify points I'm not sure of.)

quote:

Originally posted by EarthGoddess:
The blame for procreation falls on both parties, and both parties should have a say in the matter.

To a certain extent, yes. The blame falls on both, but the nine-month burden, and the shame, falls almost completely on the woman. (just to reiterate a former point)

quote:

lol, i'm the one with the negative view of the world, this is news to me. great generalization of a person's outlook who you don't even know ^.-

I was referring to hoopdawg....

quote:

Your source is too outdated.

1983 isn't that outdated. Ah well...

Scandinavian Journal of caring Sciences. March 2008

quote:

At gestational week 26 their prenatal relationship to the unborn infant was assessed. It was found that IVF fathers rated more somatic and psychic anxiety, indirect aggression and less assertiveness. They were as strongly attached to their infant as the controls. Fathers, who had rated higher attachment to their unborn infant during pregnancy, who were less anxious, more assertive and less irritable, were more attached to their infants than men who had been less attached to their unborn infants and who were more anxious, less assertive and more irritable. In conclusion, although IVF fathers are as strongly attached to their infants as other fathers, they may benefit from emotional support as they have elevated levels of anxiety proneness and indirect aggression.

SOURCE

All this source is really saying is that invitro fertilization fathers are just as capable of bonding with their unborn children as other fathers. And it also ties nicely with the previous source, in that it points out that the reason a father may not be attached to their unborn baby is because of high levels of stress. All he needs is emotional support and reassurance, and there shouldn't be a problem.

But I'll reiterate one more time, since you seem to be incapable of absorbing it the first time. Due to the advent of 3-D and 4-D Ultarsounds, men are now able to see their babies before they are born, therefore whether I'm right or wrong, your point is completely moot, null, void, floccinaucinihilipilificated...

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If you are a naturalist than why are you for the death penalty? Humans are animals, correct? Animals kill each other all the time and no one punishes them for it.

I saw a documentary a loooong time ago, where a male lion fought and chased off the dominate male of a pride and killed that pride's cubs. But then the lionesses ganged up on him and maimed him so badly that he died a few days later.

I've also heard of Baboons often doing the same thing.

It's not unusual for animals to retaliate. Where do you think we get our desire to do so? The common ancestors we descended from.

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Homosexuality is different than people who are mentally handicapped. Being a homosexual has nothing to do with a defect in one's ability to learn or think.

To you, maybe not. But to those who see homosexuality as a disorder of the soul that needs to be eradicated, designing babies would be a perfect tool for them to get their wish. That is why I don't like it.

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I don't want a special needs kid because I want my kid to be smart and contribute something that to this world that will better mankind.

Then that's your business.

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While the mentally challenged are good people and sweet they cannot give back to this world like say someone like Stephen Hawking. It's just how it is.

Yeah, really. That blind severely autistic guy who plays piano perfectly? Freeloader. That retarded guy who was hit in the head by a plane propeller who can sculpt amazing bronze figures? Worthless.

Music and art is just as important to mankind, as science or math. Sure not all of them are capable of that, but if we began writing off every retarded person as useless it would be the 1950s all over again.

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What defines us as human is not love as many think. Love is actually just complex instincts that drive us to find a mate.

I love my parents, I don't want to mate with them. I love my sister, I don't want to mate with her either. I loved my cats, I definitely didn't want to mate with them. Again, I don't think you fully comprehend love. There's far more to it than sex. Love is what makes us do "stupid" things that would get us killed in the wild. Love makes us stop caring about our own survival, in favor of others.

lol, i'm the one with the negative view of the world, this is news to me. great generalization of a person's outlook who you don't even know ^.-

Your source is too outdated.

If you are a naturalist than why are you for the death penalty? Humans are animals, correct? Animals kill each other all the time and no one punishes them for it.

It's not the easy road or the hard road. it's me giving my child all the proper tools they'll need for life before they are even born.

Homosexuality is different than people who are mentally handicapped. Being a homosexual has nothing to do with a defect in one's ability to learn or think.

I don't want a special needs kid because I want my kid to be smart and contribute something that to this world that will better mankind.

While the mentally challenged are good people and sweet they cannot give back to this world like say someone like Stephen Hawking. It's just how it is.

What defines us as human is not love as many think. Love is actually just complex instincts that drive us to find a mate. What truly seperates us from animals is our ability to find reason in nearly every situation we come across.

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lol, don't try reasoning with earthgoddess, she has her head too far up her ass to hear anything we say.

Of course, I can't hear what you're saying. You're not speaking. :P

Although, I can READ clearly what you're saying. I just don't agree with your negative view of the world and life in general.

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Cliche? Are you actually denying the fact that women go through drastic changes during pregnancy?

No, I'm saying that your description of the changes that women go through during a normal pregnancy is a hyperbole of the real thing. In fact, many of the "drastic changes" they go through are pleasant. Such as feelings of euphoria (Oxytocin is released by the brain during the final stages of pregnancy and during childbirth, the same chemical released during orgasm), and some have even claimed to have heightened senses.

If you're speaking of abnormal pregnancies, which are fairly rare, that's a whole 'nother can o' worms, and I do agree that those are awful.

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And, (assuming that most women seeking abortion are unmarried) pregnant, unmarried women are totally looked down on by society.

I know, and I agree that should change.

But I think we're on a completely different page here. I'm thinking of couples in a loving relationship who mutually agree to have a child. I see no reason why a woman in that situation would be living in shame. If you're talking about single women who were unfortunately knocked up, I understand what you're saying.

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Wow, you sure do like to generalize. I'm sure you've met a total of 10 expecting farthers. What a wide range of people. lol, most mammal males leave the mother after mating and take absolutely no part in the rearing of offspring.

Actually, slightly less than 10. But they are diverse, which is necessary to make an educated observation. If that doesn't satisfy you, I'll make sure to ask a few more for you.

Excuse me, I forgot to mention that while we are mammals, there is still something that separates us from other mammals. An ability to love without restrictions. It's what many scientists define as "human".

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Oh, just to be annoying like you, give me a source that says the opposite of what i am saying about children and their fathers. Come on, disprove me with some evidence. I'll be really when you realize you can't. ^.-

Again, whether I'm wrong or not, with the advent of 3-D and 4-D Ultrasounds, your point is moot, because men can now see their babies before they're born.

But if you MUST have proof to such a simple concept, here you go:

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...Recent research has explored the man's experiences with his spouse's pregnancy and childbearing and the development of the paternal role. However, an omitted area of research involves exploration of the attachment process between father and fetus.

Recent evidence suggests that attachment may begin during pregnancy, rather than the first hours following birth, and that the strength of the marital relationship may somehow influence the father's beginning relationship with his unborn child. Since there are no physical changes in the father to trigger his fatherliness, he must experience it vicariously through the woman (Josselyn, 1956). It has been postulated that fathers who report a variety of physical reactions resembling pregnancy symptoms may be expressing identification with the pregnancy and unborn baby. (Wapner, 1976)

SOURCE

tl;dr: The closer the man is to his pregnant wife/girlfriend, the more he'll experience the pregnancy which will lead to a stronger bond with the unborn infant. That bond is a natural process that prepares men for fatherhood.


In other words, men can feel pregnant too.

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lol, if you could have the choice why would you allow your kid to be retarded?

I am a naturalist. I would prefer my children to born through as natural a process as possible. No test tubes.

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That's not to say they aren't people but if this was the wild, they would in no way be able to survive.

If this were the wild, I would agree with you, but it's not. I'm not desperately trying to avoid predators so I don't mind being "burdened" with someone.

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I'm sorry that I have the instinct to make sure my kid will be the best they can be. It really is no reflection of weakness. Why would I burden myself with that when I don't have to? What is it with idiots and giving themselves more work than is necessary or required. This is what's wrong with America.

Taking the easy road is always weakness. Love is what makes people burden themselves with more work than necessary. An emotion I don't think you'll ever comprehend. Or I guess you're right, maybe people shouldn't burden themselves more than necessary when it comes to their children. If a gay gene is found they should totally abort their gay children and eventually eradicate homosexuality once and for all, so they won't be burdened with the shame, ridicule and humiliation. Everybody's happy.

lol, don't try reasoning with earthgoddess, she has her head too far up her ass to hear anything we say.